----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 02 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2022-01-24 ----------------------------------- *door closes* Russ: Okay, once more. Up the stairs, around the corner, down the hall, and across the way into the little room we call a closet for another exciting episode of- Avalon: "Two Clowns in a Closet". R: Brought to you by the Circus Freaks, "Two Clowns in a Closet", a special grant from "Hey, we still have electricity" and listeners like you. A: So, welcome. We still have more questions because we were not given a small number of questions. We were given a large number of questions- R: We were. We were given this incredible boon of a lot of people wanting to know a lot of stuff. We've curated out another handful, and we've locked ourselves in the room very late at night when it's quiet and anything but warm. A: Yes, it is definitely cold again. R: We're armed better this time. A: Yes. R: Hats and hot water bottles. A: Yes, I've been re-made aware of hot water bottles and the joys thereof. R: Re-made aware. A: You know, I tried- R: When you're a werewolf and you get bitten again, you go. "You know what? I think I'm just going to do it. To howl at the moon twice." It's fine. A: Awooooo! R: There it is. The first howl of the season. Just in case none of that worked out, should we do another introduction or are you happy? A: I'm good. R: You're happy? A: Yeah. R: Okay. Well, then it's "Two Clowns in a Closet" time. A: Yes. R: Brought to you by us, two clowns in a closet- A: You're doing a re-introduction. R: I know. I just didn't trust that it wasn't a trash fire. A: It's wonderful. R: It's wonderful? A: You've got the cards in your pocket- R: I know. I have the power and it concerns me. A: You shouldn't have the power, just pull the pocket cards out. R: Okay. To our friends, hello, We have a pile of your questions. We have selected a few to get going on. I guess we can just take turns reading. A: Yeah, R: They're in my pockets. It's my closet. I guess I'm reading first. A: I guess so. R: Are you, as they say in the business, ready? A: Yes, yes I am. R: Then they say "Listo", and then they say- R and A together: "Hup!". R: And then we have to- my adrenaline fired. Did yours? A: Yes, definitely.- R: That was good- A: I was like "I'm going to fly!". R: We should do that anytime we're feeling a little- If it starts lagging, just call it. We'll do it again. A: Okay R: Okay! The first question comes from a person who we don't have their name. But you wrote on an index card. A: Yes, because I removed all the names so we can't blame anyone. R: Yes, to protect the innocent and the not innocent. And the sarcastic- to protect the sarcastic A: Particularly to protect the sarcastic- R: Yes A: I know who you are, but not everybody else does. R: I don't know who you are. I mean, I know who you are. R: Actually, I have no idea who half of these questions are from. R: Are we going to just talk about the que-? We should talk about the cal-, not even the penmanship, the caliber of the questions. We could stretch a lot of time here. A: We could. R: Or? A: You could ask the question. R: I will. Our first question of this episode is, "Why did you become a clown?" A: Oooh, Hard hitting, from the beginning, just straight to the meat of it. Why did I become a clown? I kind of became a clown on accident. R: *laughs* "Hard hitting from the beginning. I kind of-" A: It was an accident- R: Ok A: I didn't mean to. R: Okay. A: I sort of got swept in it. R: What happened? What happened? Tell us what happened. A: All right. Well, I moved to Texas. R: Well, there was your first mistake. A: Yeah. I have no idea why I did that, but I did. I moved to Texas, and I had been studying flow arts, and I knew that if I didn't find people to practice with, that I wouldn't practice. I had already discovered this about myself. And so I found out that the Circus Freaks, some group of people I knew nothing about- R: Me either A: -did a clown gym. And so I went to go check that out and then eventually went to go check out this little open style show that they did. And I went and performed there. And then I found out that you were teaching an improv class, and I decided that I should go check that out because I was watching performances from various people who were going to classes with you and who were talking with you, and they were getting better. R: I hate to make this sound like I'm a good teacher, because I wasn't the only teacher there. I don't want to credit by name, but because they've asked me to keep them anonymous because they are no longer performing. But as a teacher, Johnny Morbid and I ran that theater lab, and we did a lot of good work in there, but I will not take all the credit for it or all the blame. I think that's important, too. A: That's fair. But I went to go check out that improv lab and started doing more and more, and you were definitely leaning the teaching in a clown direction. R: Oh, yeah. That was- It was never the plan for that room, but at a certain point, I sat there on the edge of the stage with the entire class and said, you know, "These are where my passions lie. Do you want to play improv or do you want to play clown?" And everybody was like, "oh, let's do the weird stuff". A: Yes. R: And that is the direction that room- A: Ended up going R: continues to go until this day. A: And no matter how many times it's changed rooms- R: Or days A: So I had originally gone into it. I was, and still am, a singer, and I was performing at open mic nights at various places, and I wanted to do better. And so I was like, "I'll take these skills and go apply them to the other places where I'm performing". R: You thought you'd steal from us. A: And then instead I was stolen. I mean like, it was just, now I was stuck. R: We showed you A: And it's been wonderful ever since. R: But, okay, so that's sort of the how A: No, that's the why. The why I became a clown was because I was looking to steal good information for other things and suddenly became one. R: You became a good information? A: No, a clown. R: Oh, so it was just like you were bitten by a radioactive clown, and then you just spontaneously developed clown powers? A: No, I was working very hard towards gaining clown powers. It takes a lot of effort. If there was a radioactive clown who could just bite you and give you clown powers, that person would be being paid a lot of money. R: Or very, very little. Okay, well, okay. It's a fair answer. So you did it, as I understand it, to become better at a job which you then abandoned. A: No, I still incorporate music into my clown quite a bit. R: Oh! A: But it's a different focus. R: It is a different focus. We can circle back to that when time permits. A: Sure, yeah. R: We got an agenda tonight. A: Yes. We have a selection of questions that we decided to answer. R: That would be the agenda. A: Yes, so let me turn this around. R: let me turn this around. I wouldn't want to make you get out from under that warm blanket, you're not sharing. A: I am sharing the blanket- R: The little corner! A: No, you've got- Your feet are covered. They're warm. R: I didn't come here to complain. I came here to be an egomaniac and talk about my life's work. A: Well, then why did you become a clown? R: That's a very good question. You just really worked that in just beautifully. A: Perfect. R: Just beautifully. I have to tell my accident story in order to get to the point, because I think you opened the door to it. I started out in this work. I was previously a commercial artist and while that was wrapping up, I started getting into juggling as a hobby because my copious free time was growing, and I had delusions that I could do that as a thing as a performer. So I started going out, and I ended up working with a really phenomenal juggler who was very tolerant and much better than me, who I then worked with for years and years and years. And since he was much better than I was, we were able to get shows and things, and I would go out there way above my pay grade, and I would go out there and things would go wrong. And you have to understand, at this point, I was not me now. I was proto-me, which means I would get really angry. I would get really pissed off, and then everyone would laugh, and then I would get more angry and they would laugh more. And this became a thing, and I was not liking it. And one day, this guy came up out of the audience. We were at a festival, so it was, ya know, kind of organic. And he comes walking up to me, and he says, "Have you ever considered being a clown?" And I said, "Look, friend, I'm too cool for that, but thank you. Thank you for your input." And he goes and he shrugs and he walks away. I don't think much of it. And a few months later, I'm out at another big public event doing the same thing. The same thing happened. Same guy. A: It'd be even weirder if it was a different guy R: It would be weirder. But in this case, it was like, "Okay, come on. It's bad enough that I'm having a bad day, doing a bad job, and everyone's laughing at me. But on top of that, you feel the need to ask this question." A: It's true. R: And I, kind of -I was a little rude. I feel bad to this day, and this is someone who's become a friend since. So I feel bad to this day. It happened again. And he walked up to me and stuff was going bad. And I said, just, "I know what you're gonna ask. I know what you're gonna ask." A: They can't see that your hands. R: I'm just like holding out my hands. And I'm saying, "I know what you're gonna ask." I said, if I was to say yes, what's your point? Other than to mock me?" And he said, "I'm the director of the circus school and a clown school And would you like to come and take classes? Because I think you have chops" Which, of course, is a term for I guess I know how to do this. And I said, "Yeah, okay. That's not what I expected." And it turned out that who that person was was Dick Monday from the New York Goofs, who happened to be based here now. And I got a chance to work with them in a sort of a mini may-mester thing. And then we did some more work together, and I learned a tremendous amount, but I was really bad at it. And again, the anger becomes a theme, which I to had deconstruct. And every minute of those workshops I was terrible and I was frustrated and I was angry and it was all my fault. I mean, it was all me. I was not ready to do this work at that point. But I got it in my head because I kept getting told, you know, maybe you need to figure this out. I got in my head, I said, "The problem here is obvious. The problem is these teachers are terrible. Every last one of them. That's clearly it couldn't be me. It must be them!" This is the sort of idiot I was. And I said, "Well, they're American circus clowns. What's the furthest I could get from that and still be doing this thing? Because the thing is interesting. It seems like a little bit of fun. How far can I get from it?" And I came across some stuff about European theater clowns. And I said, "Theater is different than circus. Europeans is different than Americans. It's still clown. Let's do it." And I took a workshop from a truly tremendous teacher who kind of blew my mind and gave me lots to think about. And I realized, wow, this is something I really care about. And the irony of that story, which leads into the answer, is that years later, I bumped into said original teacher. I bumped into Monday at a show someone else was doing. We were both in the audience, and he had heard that I had gone off to a totally unrelated European workshop with a particular teacher. And he was like, "I'm going to take a class from that guy. What do you think? What do you think? Tell me about it." And we were both on the same journey in totally different spots, went totally different directions, and somehow ended up on the road side by side for a second. That was just such a neat idea. And I later heard another clown teacher name of Jango Edwards, who I have not studied with. And Jango said, "We're all on the same mountain. If you're ahead of me, I'll try to keep up. If you're behind me, I'll try to teach you what I know. If we walk together, it's great. And if we can't stand each other, I'll see you at the top." And I always thought it was a great thing that you could be any of the things you're doing, and this work allowed for that. You know, I have a lot of different interests. I'm interested in so many different weird niche things, and skills interest me and stuff interests me. And somehow the answer clown gave me a place to put it all. It was like I needed that thing. And I also definitely believe it's not a job so much as a calling. Once you're doing this work and you see the impact it can have and how you can feel and how you can make others feel, you start to think to yourself, "Well, maybe there's something to this." A: *affirmative noise* You get swept up in it. R: Yeah. And you're just on the way. So I think the why is once you start, if it's not for you- And I've seen this, I've had students in my workshops do the exact same thing to me. They decided I was the problem. And they went off on their own journeys. And a couple of them came back and told me later, "Oh, and I soul searched in these ways, and I came back and I realized that you're great and I'm a mess." And I have plenty of others who said, "You stink." And I did. And I worked on the things that they told me. So I think at the end, you either have a really negative reaction to the experience because it's a very emotional experience and very high intensity experience of doing that training, and it's either working for you and you're in it and you got the right teacher and you're doing the right thing, or it's not, and you got other things you need to be doing. So I think there's a sort of built in wash out that happens. A: Yeah R: So, yeah. So the why is once you're doing it was for me, it was my jam, as they say. As the kids say, it was my jam- A: Do the kids say that? R: How would I know? I'm an old person. That's the end of my answer. A: Okay. R: Okay. What have you got for me? A: All right, next one is- R: Your read, your read. A: My read. "How much is scripted fun and how much is improvised in a typical act?" R: Let's start off with saying the phrase scripted fun sounds like obligatory entertainment. It just sounds like the worst possible. "It's time for our scripted fun and our obligatory entertainment." Oh, wow. I hate that. A: That's so much worse. I mean just- R: Mandatory fun. A: Mandatory fun already exists, but with a script? R: Yeah. "And now we want you to laugh here." But turning it around, something one of my teachers said that I try to adhere to is we do the same show every night, and somehow it's different every time. One part of that is the fact that we're always looking for a way- I mean, we have to do the same show, and in fact, the two of us, we do acrobatics- A: Yeah R: -and we do juggling, and we do things where there's risk involved. If we get it wrong, someone gets hurt. We have to be consistent in those things, and we have to be consistent in our timing or we won't be with music or we won't be with it. You know, it will be confusing. But somehow we're always looking for that unexpected thing that happens in the course of the show that makes it about not about our show, but about that moment. It makes it about that night in that theater, in that place with that audience. And I'm always looking for that, and I'm very willing to try for that. It's high risk because you're going off the rails of your script, you're going off the rails of your rules, and that's where the skills of an improviser really matter. A: yeah. R: The other side of that is, I think about one thing that we do that is a bit different than a lot of clowns, because- and again, all of this is kind of our take. You ask 100 clowns, you're going to get 100 answers to all of these questions. I am by no means the de facto answer, and I'm certainly not an expert in anything except for my silly experiences. But the thing I think about is Commedia, and Commedia dell'arte, which is a theater form involving masks and big archetype style characters. One of the things those troops have is while they have a script, they also have this thing called the lazzi. And what they are are are these little pieces of material that they've really worked on, and they have sort of a cue, and someone in the show will call for it, and then they do it like, "Oh, it's the right moment. Let's do it." And it'll happen. And it looks very organic. And I loved the idea of that when I heard about it because it's the best of both worlds. I don't have to really be rigorous and structured, but I also have to be really good at my job and on my toes and have done the work at the rehearsal ahead of time. So I kind of get the best of both of those things. One of the things I really love that we do is we do a lot of things where there are those little story triggers, and then we have this little micro story. And I like that opportunity. You know, we'll be out at- we have this very funny and involved way if I fall on the floor that you acrobatically get me up off the floor, and it ends with a big trick. And that's a- It's a big stunt, and it's a couple of minutes of comedy. But if I just sat down and said, "Okay, now help me up!" it wouldn't work. But one time we're at a show and we were doing a slow motion motor- It was bicycles, but it was like a- A: *laughs* R: -slow motion bicycle crash, a miniature bicycle, a miniature tricycle and a skateboard. And we all crashed in slow motion. And we all fell down. We blew apart backwards, and we all hit the ground in slow motion, all of which was improvised. We all just kind of felt the moment and went for it- A: Yes. R: -And then when we sat up and I reached for you to help me up, which is the cue for that, and I wasn't really thinking, but I was in the body position. When I reached for you, everyone in our company knew what to do and backed up and lent focus to it. And when it was done, it looked like this really advanced, evolved scene that was created. The acrobatics were certainly coordinated, and we had certainly rehearsed various ideas, but none of that moment was planned, per se, and yet all of it had been rehearsed. A: Yeah. R: And I think that is the perfect example of my favorite answer to that question. Everything and nothing but not in a hand-waving- in a very literal way. A: All right, R: All right, that's my answer. Turning the question on my friend here. A: Yeah, I'm like you covered all of it. R: No! A: Yeah R: No! A: You did, though. R: Well, are you going to cry "mulligan", or you're going to be good at your job? A: Ouch! R: Ouch? What do you mean, Ouch? Of course you're going to do a good job. I have infinite faith of you rising to a challenge. That's why I challenge you. That's why I'm a challenging person. A: Well, are you going to ask the question? R: I don't know. Are you going to be busy judging me for saying things like, "Are you going to rise to the challenge?" or are you going to rise to the challenge? (pause) R: Don't stick your tongue out of me on radio, people can't see it. "How much is scripted fun and how much is improvised in a typical act?" A: I mean, like you said, it sort of depends, because in theory, in theory, you have- On a stage act- R: *affirmative noise* A: you have a script. R: Sure A: You have an entire act. You have the whole act planned out. And you have the whole act completely planned out, like to some micro beats, and then inevitably, that is not what happens. R: Why is that? A: Sometimes it's because of some wonderful audience input that would be a shame not to integrate. Sometimes it's due to mistakes. I had one act, which actually I've mentioned before on this podcast, it's going to start sounding like I only have the one act, but there's an act that I do that I use a loop pedal and a microphone for. R: *Affirmative Noise* A: And the way this one is set up, I'm supposed to walk across the stage and trip over this microphone because it is laid out on the floor of the stage. R: We use a really cheap microphone, and we would never kick a good one, A: Ever. I warn every tech crew I ever work with on this one, because otherwise they would yell at me. R: So you've got this very good- Which what's funny is I remember you and I don't know if we've talked about this, but I remember us trying to get that down and it took forever. A: Oh, it did. R: Just to get you to kick the microphone correctly. A: Yeah. R: The rest of the act was beautiful, but that one thing was the hardest. It was hard- A: It was so hard. R: It was hard for you. Okay. We've talked about this before. A: No, we haven't. R: We haven't? (Silence) R: You just whispered. "We did in rehearsal" like no one's going to know we rehearse. We're egomaniacs, of course we rehearse. Every word of this is scripted. How much would you say is scripted and how much is improvised? A: We've looked into the answers of all these questions. We're saying something new every time we sit down and say it. R: I set you up to sound brilliant. You just sounded brilliant. A: Thank you. I appreciate the set up. R: I mean that! That's a really good example of what we're talking about. You've done your preparation. A: Yes. R: And in doing your preparation and getting suitably prodded by an external force, you deliver. Do you want to tell the rest- A: Well, Thank you for making it seem all about you and- R: No! What is it about me? A: Because you're the one who set me up. R: No, I prodded you. A: Exactly, you did both of those things- R: You still have to- Here's the thing. If I could be a good provocateur, that's great. You still have to deliver. A: This is true. R: Otherwise it's just somebody being mean. A: Also true. R: That doesn't sound- A: So much of clown training. R: Just me being mean to people. No! Yes, but no. A: For reasons, Always for reasons. Back to my story. R: Yes. A: Back to my story. So my job is to get across the stage, get halfway across the stage and trip over this microphone, at which point it makes a God-awful noise, because that's what happens when a microphone is turned on and you trip over it. R: It's not a good sound. A: It's an awful sound. And this leads me to discovering the loop pedal and then into my act. There was one particular time that I did this act where I walked across the stage and I tripped over that microphone and there was the clunk of hearing it move on the stage, but no awful audio feedback from the microphone. R: What's your emotional experience at that moment? A: Panic. R: *laughs* I dug deep into my theatrical bag of tricks, and I panicked. Yeah, that's what I would have done. A: The good thing is the next scripted points are to look at the microphone in confusion and then look at the audience- R: Giving you several confusion, several- A: -in confusion. R: -several seconds to think, how am I going to get out of this one? A: Exactly. So I'm already supposed to be following this microphone by its cable down to the loop pedal. I followed the microphone down to the loop pedal. R: You're still on book at this point. Technically. A: Technically still on book, excepting the fact that the mic is not on! R: Which is going to hamper your ability to loop. A: I did actually take an entire additional moment to flip the mic switch on and off and on. And a little bit of playing with "Is this on? Is this not on?- R: Oh, you're off book now- A: -What's going on with this?" R: You're off- A: So I was off book already. R: Ooooh. A: The microphone was in the on position, but was not making any sounds. This implies this microphone is not plugged in. So I go over to the loop pedal. It's plugged into the loop pedal, where it's supposed to be plugged into the loop pedal, which means that the loop pedal is not plugged in. So I continue checking in with the audience as I follow the cord from the loop pedal to where it is supposed to be plugged in on the edge of the stage. R: So I think the thing about this is like a tech theater person could have slid up in there and done this. Another performer could have asked for help. But in that moment, this is like- and the audience, I was in the room, the audience is enraptured with you trying to discover and figure this out. There's video of it. A: Yeah. Because this is a clown discovering a puzzle. And as far as anybody can tell, I think, this is the act and- R: I would imagine, and I'm glad there was a pay off. A: Yeah. And so I got it all working. There's a large period of that where all I was thinking is "I hope that the audio techs don't turn up the volume" R: *laughs* And deafen everyone in the theater. A: Yeah. And make this awful screeching sound when I managed to plug this in. I was like, "Please! Please, figure out what I'm doing and not let that happen." R: But it worked out. A: It worked out. And it not only worked out, it was brilliant. Like, it felt really good. The audience was, like, cheering for me, and I hadn't gotten to the act part yet. Like, I hadn't gotten to the, quote, unquote "skill section" of that act yet. R: You proved you were a fool who could solve problems, and then you wowed them with some rather good juggling and singing and whatnot- A: Yeah, and they were really happy with that, and it was awesome, and it was really good. So, sometimes things happen. And I mean, yes. Is it possible to call a tech in and have them fix it. Sure. But that doesn't feel half as good for the audience and for the performer as staying engaged and staying with the problem. R: And you know, you did such a good job with that. And I've had a similar mic glitch. I was thinking about this. I had a similar mic glitch in a show, and I tried to make some funny out of it, didn't happen in that one. A: Yeah, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the stuff that you come up with in an improvisational way fails completely. Totally. That happens. R: Yeah. And a lot of it is going with it. I was on the stage with another performer, and the other performer chose the decision of not acknowledging the problem. You chose the decision of acknowledging, I acknowledge problem, the other person acted like it didn't happen. And now we have this disconnect of, "Well, are we going to pretend microphones popping don't exist?" Whereas you had a problem, there was no way to deny that something was wrong and because it was part of your world now you could sort it out and it was really cool to watch. A: Yeah. So that was really good. Another thing that we do improvisationally. You mentioned the lazzi idea, which we play with. R: Yeah, not in any way. A: It's not lazzi, but it's a similar- R: We do lots of stuff. A: We do lots of stuff. We have some of the similar ideas. And one of the things you can do when we do events where, you know, we're out at a festival and we're interacting with people and going around, and you can take a new idea that you've, like, got half of or three quarters of, but it's not done yet. It's not practiced yet. It's like, you got a solid idea and you're pretty sure it's gonna work. You can take that- It can't be the only thing you go out there with, but you can take that out there and you can run through it and try it. And you can try it- you'll try it with a small group of people, because you're only- You will entertain thousands of people by the end of the day. But at any given time, it's like maybe ten or even less, R: Depending on the situation. A: Depending on the situation, yeah. Sometimes it's a lot. Sometimes it's a few. But so you can try it with five people, and then you can try it with the five people, 10ft from the first five people. You can try it again. You can make adjustments and you can try to figure out how it works. And by the end of the day, you'll definitely know if it doesn't work. R: Oh, yes. A: *laughs* R: Oh, yes. A: And you'll have some idea of at least some of the things that do seem to work. R: And I think it's worth mentioning what you're talking about is is it doesn't matter where you are in your creative journey. This work is really iterative. A: oh yeah, R: You come up with an idea, you try it. It's funny. You take it out, you try it if it works, good. If it doesn't, you have to make adjustments. If the audience isn't laughing, if they're not with you on it, it doesn't work. No matter how much you love it, something isn't right with the way you're presenting it. So you need to go and keep working it. A: *Affirmative noise* R: And I've done that with a couple of pieces, and it feels really indulgent until you remember, "Oh, no, we tested this, you know, in rehearsals before we went out. You know, it wasn't a complete impulse." A: You yeah, no. Not something completely impulse, something you've done before. But it can still be pretty rough. And so long as it's not the only thing you're bringing- Because if you go out and you're like, "This is the only thing I'm doing today" that's not going to be okay. R: Sure. A: That's not doing your job. R: And I think the thing is, we are constantly trying things, A: *Affirmative noise* R: and if I was by myself and I went out there, you know, it wouldn't matter. Everything I did would either work or not. The minute you're working with a partner, you have both half as much work to do and twice as much work to do, because you now need to have moments in a way that your partner can read and go with you to make theater for other people. And, you know, I started off working alone. Working alone, working alone. And now I get to perform with a handful of clowns. And it's so much fun because when we're playing games, you know, I look over at you and there'll be a moment, I'll look at you and it'll either be the joyous, "Come with me. Trust me" eyes, or it'll be the "I am so screwed and I have nothing. Please save me!" and you deliver. And that is really good. A: Yes, R: That's a nice- it's a nice feeling. A: Yeah, It is a nice feeling, it's very good. R: So I think that, yeah. I think that hammers that idea, which is that we're constantly working on little bits and pieces and polishing. And then there's also a fact that if I had over rehearsed anything, if you had over rehearsed anything, it'd be so smooth and impenetrable by the time it got in front of an audience that all the humanity would have been polished off of it and it would lose the- A: Oh, and that happens. And then you have to go back and rough it back up. R: I think so. I've had to rediscover pieces I've worked on, and that's a whole another process, because then it's your precious gem. But you're like, "No, no, no, I have to be able to tear my precious thing apart and- A: And be real with it- R: -And be real with it", yeah because otherwise it's just choreography and it's not fun to watch. It's not a journey anymore. A: Yeah R: But that's another topic. Speaking of another topic, are you ready for one? A: Did you read this one to me first, or did I read this one to you first? R: I'm about to read you the next one- A: Okay, R: -because I believe that is the order. A: Okay. R: Which if we get wrong as you know, *sound of flipping index cards* it will be confusing for no reason because we're just two clowns stuck in here until we answer the questions we've chosen. A: True. R: So relax.*sound of Russ dropping all the cards* I just- A: Oh, my gosh. R: I just dropped a lot of cards. It's fine. Just relax. -Yeah. Okay. I just dropped the large stack that we had carefully placed the cards that- A: We'll see- R: -we had chosen on top. A: We'll see if we get the same ones. R: We may have some this may be- A: a little bit more improv than- R: As we said, about half of our work is improvised. Okay. "Why are clowns often portrayed as being sad?" And you're not allowed to say because they dropped their index cards when they're trying to sound serious. A: Although that can also make them sad. I think this is interesting. I think this is actually two questions. R: Okay, then I'll read you the first question. I'll read you the first question. "Why are clowns often?" A: That's not what I mean. R: Oh, sorry. Then well I'll skip to the other one, "Portrayed as being sad?" A: No, that's not what I mean. I mean, there are two different tropes about clowns being portrayed as sad. R: What you got? A: So one, you have the sad clown, the Hobo Clown, or the otherwise melancholy- R: The Tramp, Emmett Kelly. A: Performing- Yeah. Then you have the trope of the performer who is a clown on stage or at parties or whatever else they do, and them being sad in their day to day life. R: I am sitting right here. A: Well, these are two tropes. These are two tropes that are both really commonly presented. R: Sure. A: And I feel like they have very different answers. R: I had a collision of this. A: You had a collision of this? R: I did. I was performing in, it was a dinner theater sort of thing, but it was sort of burlesque-y thing. And they said before the show, go out and wander the crowd. So I'm out there and you're making what funny you can while talking to people, while they're getting their drink orders in here, you're basically meeting the audience before they meet you on stage. They're walking around and this British woman, this was here, but it was this British woman. She was larger than life in every sense of the word. Loud and big and vibrant and wearing just glistening sequins from head to toe. Just everything you can want. Grabs me and sits me on her lap. And because of the scale- I'm a big person, but because of the scale, I look like a ventriloquist dummy bouncing on her knee. And she starts bouncing me on her knee like a child. And she tells everybody how much she loves me. I have to assume she found the open bar, but she's explaining that she loves me and that I'm so much nicer- And she knows clowns because back home she knows a clown personally and he's a, quote, "miserable wretch". And so all I could think of, I'm sitting there being bounced and all this is happening and all I could think is, "Lady, you don't even know me. I'm going to go home and be sad about a bunch of stuff, including this." A: *laughs* R: But yeah, the idea that we're so heightened by this idea of wanting the contrast. We see someone who's big and beautiful, we have to assume that they're sad and quiet at home. I think about, like, Fred Rogers. Fred Rogers, who should be treated like a saint, and this culture does. Also, there are all these rumors that boil up, because we- A: Oh yeah, and every weird rumor that seems good about Mr. Rogers is true. R: Is true. Absolutely. A: And every weird rumor that makes him out to be awful somehow is just false. None of that's true. R: But the point is, I think some of that comes because we're so uncomfortable with the idea that something might just be happy. And so I think we have to have that. We have to assume other things. The other side of this, I'll say, is, you know, the clown is referred to as the juggler of emotions. They're the ones who can feel all these different things, do all these different things. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: And the truth of the matter is, if you don't take someone on a journey, if you just walked in with a rictus smile on your face the whole time, it would creep everyone out. If you were sad all the time, we would, like, "Get over it". But when we see you come out like an excited figure and you crash, or when we see you low and something happy happens, we watch you transform. We're transfixed. A: Yeah, we love that. R: We want to go with it. There's a classic mime exercise. There's a Lecoq school mime exercise, and we've both done it. But there's a blind date. A: Oh, the blind date. R: Yeah. And the whole premise of it is you're going to go out and no matter what you experience, the blind date never shows up. And so it's you waiting for a date that never shows up. So it's designed to be modeling sad and tragic, but not like really tragic. And it's a point of great comedy. A: Yeah, It's emotional, but it's all personal emotion, and it's relatively low stakes. R: Right. And that's a great example because we see someone coming in with a super high energy, and then nothing happens. But then they look around and they go, "Ooo, What else is there?" And so I think part of it is also we remember happy and sad because of these big, goofy emotions. A: Yes. R: But really, there's a lot of nuance in the work. I think about the work I do, and very little of it is what I would call ha-ha happy funny. I tell broken heart stories and miniature silent films, and, you know, I put myself in precarious situations where bad things happen and, you know, they're not- they're all funny, but they're not "Ha-ha, Look at me being silly and I'm a happy person" funny. They're human condition funny. A: Yes! R: And that's what appeals to me, whether or not it works is- you know, that's for critics to decide- A: But that's, its definitely- That's definitely a thing. The clown feels very intensely- R: Yes A: -and you watch them feel very intensely. And that's a huge part of what clown is. So, yeah, you're going to think of clowns the character- Are going to be very- Are going to, sometimes, be very tragic. R: I hope so, because otherwise I think, again- A: It would be very boring. R: Exactly. A: It would be very boring if they were always happy. R: Very boring, very boring A: It's actually scary, but on the personal side, on the side of the performer being sad, we've also had a lot of history on that because we have things like Grimaldi. R: They wrote books about Grimaldi. A: They wrote books about Grimaldi. R: Well, Charles Dickens did. A: Who was just a tragic- R: Yeah. It might be the origin story of that meme of the tragically, broken person who's- A: The Pagliacci? R: The Pagliacci joke, yes. A: Yes, the "Doctor. But I am Pagliacci!" R: I didn't think we were going to get through this without hearing it at least once. So I'm glad that came up. A: Yeah. Because that's where that comes from. So that, I think that- R: Yeah A: I think that explains it. I think we both explained that one together. So I can't just ask you- R: That's good. A: -'Cause you ask me, and then I ask you. R: It suggests an organic and comfortable conversation. A: What?! R: Would you like to put me under a bus? Now that you have a new question? A: Sure, I'll ask you a question. R: You can ask me a new question and put me directly under a bus. A: "Tell us about times that an audience or audience member really appreciated something you didn't expect to be remarked upon or felt really 'on your side' when something, internal or external went wrong." R: Ohh, A: There's a lot to go for. R: That's so good. A: I don't feel like I put you under a bus at all. You've got tons of options. R: I know. I feel bad you'll find an opportunity to put me under a bus, but here's a thought for you. I think if my audience is ready to see me do my thing, I've spent enough energy getting them comfortable and ready that they're on my side. So I don't really have a situation where the audience isn't on my side, not because I'm an egomaniac, but because I won't do my thing until they're ready for it. I'll just keep going until they love me and then I'll do it. And if that means I don't get to do my thing, that's tragic to me. So I will work very hard. That said, I have always been amazed at the outpouring of humanity people have. And I will tell- I got one. I got a really good one. A: Okay. R: I, like so many creatives, you know, I draw from my own life, and I take a little story of me and I turn it into something. And I got my heart good and broke at one point some time ago, and enough time had passed that I turned it into a performance piece. But the truth of it was while I was in the midst of what was turning into a really ugly breakup, a really explosive, tragic sad breakup. I found a piece of music that would be perfect. And the whole idea, not the act, but the idea came to me all at once. And I literally said, "Oh, I can't do this yet, but I know it's coming" And I tucked it away, knowing that the reason I couldn't do it is I was in the middle of living it. I had to finish living it before I could go back and do it. Which is a really awful thing creatively to know about your own life. A: Oh yeah, R: So I'm mining it in the moment. And spoiler alert, this all ends up going exactly like you expect to go through the breakup. Tragic sad. And then the minute I've got something to focus on, what do I focus on? I pulled that piece of music out, and I'm like, "Well, I'm going to put every emotion negative and positive I have into this thing and make it a thing." And of course, at the time, I wasn't really thinking about it that way. I was thinking about, "I have an idea. I'm just going to focus on the idea." Not really thinking, "Wow, I'm using my own theater lab as an opportunity to develop a piece of therap- I mean, theater or maybe it's therapeater, theapy! Yeah, that! So the point is, I've got this thing, and I get it developed. I put it out there, and people really like it. And I'm raked across the coals by doing it. I do it again. People like it. I work on it some more. It evolves. Eventually will replace the music with a different rendition of the music that one of our performers got to record, and we got to go to the recording studio and do it exactly the way we wanted it, which was this whole awesome experience. And time passed, and it went into a show called Playthings, where I got to do it as part of a show that was a run. This act was one of the vignettes in the story about living toys. And I went through and I did the whole thing. And finally, out the other side, it was in a big stage show, and we got one shot at it, and it was a huge stage show, and it was one of those golden moments where everything went right, and it was just, it went really, really well, and I was so in it, and I did the act right. And I know this sounds like I'm not answering the question, but I swear I am. And I finished the act, and it's a story. The clown tells a story in a performance and then finishes and makes it very clear that that story is finished, it goes to dark, and then the clown comes up and looks at you and says, "thank you". It's really clear, I'm telling you a story like a storybook. And the lighting is very vignette, and it's very emotional. So I go through all this, and I finish it, and I come up and the audience- I feel the wave of it hitting, and I'm like, "Wow, this is really a thing" And I'm in it, and I'm loving it. I'm having this really big moment, and I finished with it. It feels really good. And then the worst thing to ever happened to a performer can happen because it happens every time you're on stage, you have to leave. It's just you're having this moment. A: You do. R: You're like, you're in love with the audience, and they love you, and everybody feels good. You're making little hand hearts, and then it's over and you have to- you can't stay. You have to go. And I turned to leave, and I've got a nice little flourish. I pick up all my props, I look back at the audience, "thank you". And as I'm leaving and I'm just kind of empty, and it's not resigned because I feel really good about the performance, but there's just this sort of hollow space. If you play it and you wear headphones and you crank the volume all the way up, the compressor mic on the stage picked up someone in the back of the theater screaming at the top of their lungs, "She doesn't deserve you" And I turned deadpan. And all at once, it came back to me, and I was like, "I know, thanks". And the audience died laughing. I mean, they just exploded all over again. And we had this nice little extra second. I nodded and I left. And it was like, oh, yeah, this was the most validating thing. To build a piece of creative work, to build something interesting, to have it have and truthfully have almost nothing to do with the experience that inspired it. It had grown into its own thing, and then after it had become its own thing, it had been successful. And you got to do it out there, do it at a maximal level, and then have someone yell to you from the audience that they are aware that this is a real love story where your heart got broken and you absolutely didn't deserve that and they didn't deserve you. I was like, yeah, I know. I went through a lot to figure it out. Glad you joined me on that, very validating, very incredible experience. And I walked on the stage, and I have felt good about that act ever since. And I have never on record told that story, because if the person it was ever finds out, they might throw a pitch fork at me from hell. A: It's possible R: You never know. So, yeah, I felt really beautifully supported in a moment of just like the quiet. A: That's lovely. R: Thank you. Would you like me to ask you the same question? A: Yes. R: I will ask you the same question. Here's the question. Here's the question. "Tell us about a time that an audience or audience member really appreciated something you didn't expect to be remarked upon or felt really on your side when something internal or external went wrong." A: This is a tough one. R: Why is it a tough one? A: It's a tough one. You mentioned already that normally you feel like the audience is on your side. I normally feel like the audience is on my side. Like, if I haven't gotten them on my side yet they're not an audience yet. They're just a group of people who- R: There's some- A: -Who happen to be there R: -hard clown wisdom for you right there. That's free. A: They're just a group of people who happen to be there and if you can't convince them that they should be an audience, then you should leave because they don't want to see you. R: *laughs* A: I mean, so that makes me really feel very supported by almost every audience. R: But you've never had anything go wrong except for a tech glitch. A: Oh, I've had plenty of things go wrong, and I've had things go in just, like, weird directions where I am now suddenly deeply in an improvisational situation. In fact, one where if I had not gotten the support of the audience member playing along, would have been just sad. I'm going to back up a little bit to give context on this one. During the holidays, your clown plays the character of Scrooge. R: I need to pause just long enough to say that Scrooge is an awful monster of a character that I play, that people want me to be as terrible as you're about to tell them I am, and I'm not even sure what story you're telling. I just know some of the things I've said and done as that character, and I just feel like a blanket apology is in order before we continue. A: Oh, definitely. Because I've straight up heard like a two year old, two or three year old tell their parent "He's not very nice", and the parent be able to say, "No, no, he's not". And it be a great learning opportunity for them. So, no, the- Scrooge is awful, but it's great fun because everybody plays in R: And everyone is liked more when I'm in the room. A: It's wonderful. We were on an event, it's kind of this holiday market, and you sold me to a child. R: I- A: Scrooge sold- R: Thank you for clarifying 'cause I- A: Candy Cane Jane R: Into slavery. A: Into slavery. R: I'm ashamed at the truth of this story- A: For free. R: And if I remember correctly, the quote was, Let me see if I can put this back together. It was- I sold "an idiot for their relative value, which was nothing", and pawned you off on a child and walked away. A: Yeah, it's pretty much what went down. Yeah. R: Yeah, I was embarrassed A: With the statement of, "Here, have your own idiot". So awful, awful thing to do. R: Funny, but awful. A: Funny, but awful. And definitely- it's probably not a good thing that that child then immediately went, "Okay, follow me, idiot". R: *laughs* A: To which, of course, I did. R: Remember that thing where there's, like, improvisation and preparation. This was the first part. Right? No script now, A: No script now! So, because this child continued to tell me to do things and to follow them around and none of this was something that like- I just had to be there being a presence and being big and having- and being something that was fun for other people to see. Watching a clown get bossed around by a six or seven year old girl- R: Comedy Gold! A: Everyone is happy. Nobody's upset by this. Eventually R: I'm sad I missed it. A: Eventually a person who I assume was this child's mother informed them- we were going up an elevator. It was a moment of privacy or it was just this family and me. *Both laugh* A: And she tells her child that she can't call me an idiot because I'm her friend. R: How did that go over? A: This child makes no change to the tone of voice, to the phrasing of sentences, to anything she's saying except for to swap the word "friend" in. R: *laughs* A: Where she had previously been using the word "idiot". And it was shortly after that moment when I realized that this was a child who had fully bought into a game. There had been a game provided and the game said that this clown was going to do whatever she told her to and this clown's title was "idiot". And then this clown's title got switched to "friend" and that was a progression in the game, but it was just fully buying into a game. And I was with this family going around to different places inside this market for like an hour and a half, maybe longer. It was not short. We went literally everywhere there was to go. R: You didn't have to think once for an hour and a half. A: I did have to think. I had to try to make sure that I was being involved enough. I was also constantly trying to figure out whether I was going to escape the situation at any point. That was off the table. That was clearly off the table. I was not getting away because if I wandered so much as like a few feet away from this child, she would come and find me. R: Say, "hey, idiot, come here." A: Yes. R: Wow. A: Because I had clearly wandered off. R: Wow. Okay. A: But we had a great day and she brought me back when her parents told her that she could not bring me home and- R: Action figures not yet available A: -and informed Scrooge that she was returning her "friend". There was like big emphasis on the word "friend" and part of me wanted to feel like it was, you know, telling Scrooge that he was awful or something. But it wasn't. It was cluing him into the fact the rules of the game had changed while he wasn't there. So he needed to know what the situation currently was. And that this was now status "friend", not status "idiot". R: All I remember vividly was you leaning into me going, "I could really use a few minutes off stage to get myself back together" because you had been gone, live, by yourself, with this kid for an hour and a half. We were in a crowd! A: And I think I'd been there, already in there for like- R: An hour. A: Yeah, I've been at about an hour and a half. I had been R: On. A: I've been on for a long time. I have been just about ready to go take a break for a moment. R: When I did- A: Right when you sold me into slavery, R: It's not a proud moment, but it was comedy gold. What I do remember. And in talking to you about it after, I didn't have all the details, but how many people had seen you and were making mention of you? Apparently you being in every room of this event was a highlight of the event. I was there, like not greeting people, telling people that they had been canceled and to go away and trying to steal their umbrellas. You know, I was just being me. A: No, you were being Scrooge. R: I was being Scrooge. A: Scrooge is so much more. R: But hearing about "Oh yeah, we saw the arts and crafts because the clown was doing arts and crafts" and "Oh, we saw this room because of this" and "Oh, we saw this" and it was like, wow, how much life you breathed into a thing just by going along with a game because somebody totally told you what to do. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: That's awesome. That's beautiful, and I think the answer to the question. A: So yeah, Tons of support from a small child who was probably purely functioning on selfish intent, but I don't care. It was wonderful. R: That's wonderful. A: I want to do a question. R: You want to do a question? A: Yeah. R: Okay. This is very irregular. A: I don't know, I just want to. R: Okay, fine. Pick one and pick one and do it. A: Okay. R: You answer that one so beautifully. Give me a hard one. Go ahead, dig around! A: Okay. R: You want to dig around? You want to get whatever's on top. You're just going with? I mean, whatever you want. A: We can just go with whatever's on top. R: Whatever you like. A: Unless you want to add- R: Just whatever you feel. You've had a victory because you've told a terrific story. I can tell you need me to be long winded so you can get your brain breath back. I get it. I'm with you. I'm supporting you. I got you. A: Okay R: Okay. Alright? A: Alright, R: Alright. A: Okay R: Okay, Alright. A: Alright R: Okay A: Okay. R: The question. A: The question is "How do you think people will react when you come out of a closet as two clowns?" R: *laughs* It's very funny 'cause we're in a- A: 'Cause we're in a closet. R: We're in a closet. A: And we said we were going to be. R: Somebody worked the brand. How nice. Well, the silly one is; I think they'll be nonplussed. I think the fact is they'll be relieved to know that explains so much. Which in fact makes me think of something a little deeper. A: Oh? R: Early in my career, we used to have a joke about "The Really's". When you're a clown, you have "The Really's" when you tell someone "I'm a clown", when they ask you what you do or what you're about. And they go, "Really?" And you know, you're just getting started. You're probably about this stage right now and they go, "Really? You're a clown. Really?" A: Oh, no, I've gotten to the second. R: You've gotten the second one? A: yeah, I've gotten to the second "Really" R: Oh, Congratulations. A: Thank you. R: The second "Really" is when- it's this sort of incredulous confused, They know it means something. They don't know what it means. "Okay. Really? I guess that's, yeah, what's going on here. Okay. That's what's going on here. Okay. It must be real." So, yeah, I guess you've gotten there. And then the third "Really" it comes late. And I think I've just recently hit it. I feel like being trapped in my house for a while has helped. The third "Really" is when you go, "I'm a clown" because somebody finally wheedles out what you do because you're just like, "I'm a theater person." "Well, yeah but what kind of theater person?" "Well, you know, I do live, physical theater." "Well what sort of-" "I'm a clown." And they go, "Really?" And what they say and I don't know if I can duplicate the tone, but what they're saying with their tone on the word "Really" is, "Oh, that explains everything. That makes perfect sense. No mystery. Really." So I don't think anyone is going to say anything other than "Really", which is the fourth kind. And I don't even know what that one means. When I come out, "I'd like to tell everybody I'm a clown." So, yeah, I think they'll take one look at us and go, "That explains the pants". That's what I got. A: All right. R: All right. I should ask you- Should I ask you the same question? A: Yes. R: I should. Traditionally, that's how we do this. A: Traditionally that's how we do this. R: I will ask you the question now. And this pause is not just for dramatic effect, but also time to put on my reading glasses because I can't really read the cards without them. So I've been vamping every time I put them on. What? A: Is that a commonly known term? R: "Vamping"? A: Yeah. R: Oh, we're back on the I have to- "Vamping" is when you fill in time- A: Did you just try to put them into your shirt pocket? R: My nonexistent shirt pocket? Why, yes, I did. Physical theater. Well played. My mime is so good. I've confused you and myself, which, Incidentally, is exactly how they ended up all over the floor during this interview earlier. I've now done it twice. I don't know why. Because here's the weird thing. I don't own any shirts with pockets there. A: That's not true. R: I own one. A: And you wear it when it's cold. R: You're right. And I'm not wearing it. Why am I not wearing my warm shirt? What is wrong with me? That explains everything. Okay. The question. I'm holding onto the cards real tight now, I'm afraid. "How do you think people react when you come out of the closet as two clowns?" A: Thus far, people have been very supportive when I have come out of the closet as the two clowns that I am. R: Breaking news! A: Breaking news! Avalon has not simply one clown persona, but two. R: You mean like characters? You play a bunch of characters? A: No. Well, yes, but also no. R: I'm trying to help you out here. Do you want to explain yourself? A: I probably appreciate that. So one of the terms typically applied to the idea of who the clown is is the word persona. This differs from the statement of character, even though you'll definitely run into situations where they are used interchangeably. R: Would you like me to footnote highlight a really interesting fact about the word persona that I only learned in the last year? A: Sure. R: The word persona comes from the word that was used for theater masks, I think in Greek theater, and we derive the word person from that, not the other way around. A: Ooo! R: I know...as a person who does mask theater, my head exploded. A: Yeah! R: So everything you know about identity is wrong. It's fine. Continue. A: Wow. Sorry, shook. R: I know! That wasn't in the rehearsal we didn't do. A: Nope, definitely not R: I was holding back on you. I had some smarts left. A: That was really good. R: Thank you. A: So the terms are- you will find them used interchangeably. The way that we tend to think of clown, you have the performer- R: That'd be us. A: That'd be us. That's actually who you're talking to. This is not two clowns in a closet. This is two people who perform as clowns professionally R: In a closet. A: In a closet- R: Which is a really long name for a podcast. A: So that's not what we went with. R: Yeah, good call. A: But if we actually brought our clowns into this closet, something else entirely would happen. R: Mayhem. A: I don't know what it would be- R: Mayhem. A: It would not be this. So then you have personas. Some people only have one. Some people have multiple. And these personas can then play characters. One of the ways I have heard it described on multiple occasions is it's kind of like how you've got Barbie, and Barbie's always Barbie, but then sometimes she's Astronaut Barbie or she's Scientist Barbie or she's Beach Barbie, or whichever the different versions of themselves they are. But at the end of the day, it's still Barbie. So, for example, we mentioned that you play Scrooge, and that's not strictly speaking, true. R: No, it's not, because I would do a terrible job with that. A: Your clown plays the character of Scrooge. R: Yeah. It's like a game. The clown will walk out as the clown and become Scrooge in front of people and play it and then put it away and put it back on. And it's a thing, I could probably affect the physicality, the mannerisms, the voice, but it's its own thing. A: *Affirmative noise* R: What I think is interesting. Where do you think the difference in- This thing you've defined, you define the persona, the character. I've heard people talk about the clown state, which is the energy behind the persona before it has a personality. It's just the energy of being ready, A: The energy of it, yeah. R: -being ready to play. Then you have this persona, and then that persona chooses to play characters, and you may have one of those, or you may have a bunch of them. That's going to be different for everybody. Where do you see the difference between personas and how is it that you in your mind, only have two personas, and then however many characters versus having just one persona and a bunch of car-. Where's that line for you? It's interesting. A: So, this is a very interesting question, and partly this is interesting because I've been wrong before. R: Oh, true. A: Because I thought I'd found a second persona, and it actually re-enveloped into a part of the persona that I had found first. R: One of the things just to speak to it I've seen in the lab many times is that someone will have a moment and we kind of as teachers, as facilitators, we're like, "Yeah, let's keep going in that direction because it's really good" and something interesting involves and it's usually kind of childlike and happy, and that's fun. And then one day the exact opposite of it shows up and everyone is convinced it's a new character A; Or a new persona. R: Or a new persona, and then what happens is inevitably these two things merge. And the real truth is, like every person, there's more than one facet to a person and what you see is when those two things meld together, you have something much more believable. You have a person that can be both, as we were mentioning earlier, happy and sad. They can be, in your case, as I remember one was very childlike and the other one- A: Was very adult, was R: Bossy. A: Was bossy and very prim and proper and a caricature of R: Propriety, A: Propriety and adulthood R: Which is hilarious because, of course, you are so formal and proper. A: *laughs* R: You're sitting in a closet with a hot water bottle. The ship has sailed. A: But that turned out to really just be two sides to definitely the same persona. R: So in this case. So how do you now know that this other thing that's happened is not another facet that gets reincorporated into this thing? A: They feel dramatically different. Jane, who's the first persona I found is very, very high energy. Very- she tends to be on sort of the range between happy and frustrated or angry. She's very rules centered, and I know her very well at this point. R: Okay. A: Because she has been my clown persona for many years at this point. And then during lockdown, actually. Well during, since all of this, I developed a new persona. His name is Chadwick. He's much more shy. He's- He will cry at the drop of a hat. R: It's kind of hilarious. A: He's- His focus is on very different things. He's still a very young persona, if that makes any sense. I haven't- He hasn't gotten completely filled out yet, fleshed out as who he is. Like, we don't know a lot of who he is. And I know that when I had that secondary facet to Jane, I thought I was exploring a new persona. It didn't feel less fleshed out than Jane did at the time. Like, it kind of felt like it just popped up and it was fully there, insofar as it was like it didn't continue to build R: *Affirmative Noise* A: in that same way. And that was because it was building towards more Jane. It was Jane developing and building. R: *Affirmative Noise* A: And it just took adding some levels of separation to put those- to do that exploration and that growth. Whereas this feels like it's exploring somebody who's totally new. R: That's an interesting take. It's funny, because we do this very much with this work. There's a tradition of they- In order to keep a separation between ourselves and the clown. Because the clown, we think of them as right now, like right now they're sleeping. And then when they wake up to play and they're performing and they have their own lives, it's almost as if they have their own lives. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: But it's not to be confused with- It's closer to trance state than it is mental illness. And it's absolutely an intentional mental model. And I think it's important to say that because when you start talking about things that go on in people's minds, in this culture especially, there is just an aggressive fight against the idea of anything transformative, anything that changes. We want you to have one identity and to even suggest that you might have, in certain contexts, another. Even though that's a perfectly reasonable idea. A: It happens all the time without you even trying. R: Right. Because who you are at work is different than who you are with your family with, different than who you are with your friends at the simplest level, but if you've ever tried to change anything really noticeable in yourself amongst a group of peers, a group of people, you'll feel the pushback. And I think it's interesting that this work is transgressive on so many levels because we use that as a mental model of keeping these characters coherent and functional, because they need to be kept away from- I mean, there is a disaster that is the world right now. That's not really their job. They're really for something else. I mean, sometimes they're explicitly to talk about that, which is- you know, some people are really called to that. A: Yeah R: But if you're doing work with traumatized children and you've had a life where you've experienced some of that and the world is like this, none of that needs to appear there. And so you just sort of box all that off to the side safely- A: And your clown doesn't touch that. R: Yeah. And it's not that they don't know. It's that it's not important to them. What's important to them is this game of ball they're playing. And that sounds like woowoo. A: Oh, definitely. R: That's because it's a little woowoo. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: And I came into this work as an incredible skeptic. And at every stage there's this moment where you have to go, well, you either decide you're a weird wizard person doing weird wizard stuff or you're not. And when you say you are and, you know, you keep a sanity about it, so to speak, you keep a clear head about it and you just accept it. That is the mental model you're working under. I've watched it help a lot of people because they can separate themselves. When I first heard people talking about "Well my clown does this or the clown would not do that." It sounded very pretentious to me. And now I understand that for most people, I think it's a desperate desire to separate themselves because if I had to be that big, that much larger than life all of the time? A: Oh, it's impossible. R: I would burn out. A: Yeah, that's impossible. You can't do that. No one has that much energy. R: So how do you next think you're going to help these personas grow? Because you have them. You've decided they're separate, and that's great. Like I said, I know people who have a different one for every act, every costume, every character. I have people, maybe myself, you know, I have one persona, which is that clown state. How do you help them grow independently and not get muddied together? How do you keep them separate? A: Well, one of the things that I have been doing is, I've been letting Chadwick explore- there actually is a video that should be dropping at some point. It may have dropped by the time this does. I don't know because I don't know how my timing is going to go R: Because we're really slow to edit stuff A: And video is hard to- slow to edit. R: Yeah A: But I have brought him into the room to explore situations. They're pretty separate at this point. They've got different triggers, which we use that term in the work as things we intentionally do to indicate that it's time to go into the state where we are working with a particular clown persona. It's a mental model, physical trigger thing, and they've got different ones. I have brought them both out at various points. I have brought Jane out less frequently through this. R: And Chadwick is not yet at a place because I think it's not yet at a place where he'll be performing. Not to say he won't. I'm just saying that it takes time to get to that point. A: Yeah, it definitely takes time. R: They play for a long time. I think- I've heard it said that it takes ten years to turn a performer in a clown. And I've noticed it takes about three years on average for a persona to really solidify in a way that is consistent because- And some of that is just like us. We have to be exposed to a lot of experiences. A: Yeah. They're brand new. R: Yeah. They don't know anything, so we don't know how they're going to react. And the last thing you want to do is decide how they're going to react- A: Yeah, you can't do that, you have to let them try it. R: You want to give them a chance to play and find out. And that's where unique material and that's where unique stuff that's truly them in little moments that are magic that you may be doing on stage for the rest of your life come from. A: Yeah. I have actually talked about Chadwick online before. R: Good. We'll put a note in the description. A: I was- R: Show notes A: Show notes. -because I was working on finding clothing for Chadwick because ordinarily one of the things that we often do is give- or I've done in the past. What I did with Jane definitely was let her go wander through a thrift store and pick out clothes that she found interesting. I think the only part of that she still wears are her shoes sometimes, but it gave us an idea of what she was looking for. R: And then over time, yeah, everything evolves A: -other things got picked up and evolved. But that was one of the early ways we started giving her a more concrete identity and doing this stuck inside, I didn't have outfits in my wardrobe that were gonna be- that were going to give Chadwick enough of a range to try that weren't already somebody else's. R: Oh, yeah. Because I'm sitting here looking around and, oh, yeah, this piece of clothing belongs to a certain character and no one else can wear it. Absolutely. A: Yeah. And, so because spending an excessive amount of time in a thrift store in a state of mind that doesn't know COVID is happening seemed like a really bad idea. I reached out to people on Fedi on the Fediverse and said, "Hey, does anybody have clothes that they would be willing to send my way so that he can try things on and see what he likes" and people did and he found something he liked, and this was awesome. And I know that I have not done a great job of sharing that back out with the world because I ended up having some personal stuff that totally sidelined me from moving forward on this for months. But I am still working on it. He is still moving forward, and he's very grateful for all the clothes. I don't think he knows that they're from people, but if he did, he'd be very grateful for all the clothes, I think. They were just there one day. He doesn't know where they came from. R: Okay, you've unpacked some stuff. Apparently you've given yourself a to do list item. Thank you, Internet, for shaming my friend back to creative work where they belong. A: I've been getting back into it R: You're doing great. You're doing great. I think you answered the heck out of a question, A: Considering I think people thought that was just a silly, off the cuff question. Yes, I believe I did. R: I make no promises that I'm going to give silly answers. A: Nope, R: I make no promises of being funny. I always tell people when you come see us, you will see a show. I refuse to give any adjectives. That's where you start getting into trouble. If you start saying amazing, astounding, good, acceptable. These create standards, and I don't want to have to have that pressure. So instead we have a good show. Sometimes we- A: There you said good! R: Oh you're right, Sometimes we just have a show. A: We only promise a show R: Or a conversation, which we have. A: That, we definitely have. R: And I think we could wrap it up for now and come back after a cup of tea and do some more. A: That sounds good to me. R: Friends. Thank you for listening in. Check us out at circusfreaks.org for more information about us and some videos that we've mentioned. We'll also have links to stuff attached to this wherever we publish it which will probably be on that website. I don't know yet. We haven't gotten that far. I'm sitting here like I know what I'm talking about. A: Well done. R: Thank you. Do you have anything else you want to say? A: Thanks. R: You're welcome. A: I was saying it to them. R: Oh, yeah. A: Also, thanks though, this has been fun. R: It is. I would do this again. A: Definitely. R: And thank you internet and friends and we'll see you next time. I think we can let ourselves out of the closet for a moment. A: I think so. Yes. R: Are all of you ready to come out? A: Yes. Yes, we are. R: All right *sounds of trying to open a door* Twice, twice now. *sound of door opening* I got it. A: Good. You forgot your hat.