----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 04 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2022-02-14 ----------------------------------- Russ: All right, here we are. After a week off. A: We're back! R: We're back. I mean, to you, we've been here the whole time, which I find very reassuring. A: Yes. R: We have taken a week off to finish up some editing and some other projects. And now we have once again gone up the stairs, around the corner, down the hall, and to the tiny little room full of clothes on the far side of my room called my closet. For another exciting episode of A: "2 Clowns in a Closet" R: You are nailing the brand. A: Why, thank you. R: That's so good. Well, we're here. We still have a few questions. A: We do. We continue to have questions. R: Yeah. We're working our way through the pile. But that said, if you do have one, you want to add to our exciting array of things we're going to cover or if you've been listening and at this point, you think "I really want to know about that thing in episode two", we would love to tell you. A: So let us know. R: Yeah. Send us something either over- via the contact form at our website A: Over email R: Which is also on that same page. A: Yes. R: Or on Mastodon on the Fediverse. A: On the Fedi! A: We'll post our handles, so you can handle us. A: Ooo, R: I feel bad that I said it. A: That felt very strange. R: I was trying for something and I missed. And then I didn't know how to get back and there wasn't a map, but that I was in a closet with this bald weirdo and I didn't know what to do. A: Read the question. R: Oh, good plan. Thank you very much. A: You're welcome. R: That may be the fastest we ever got here. A: It might be, but I kind of doubt it. R: You think? I actually know the longest A: How long it's taken us to get to- R: To walk through a door, sit down and read an index card. How long do you think it takes us? Without looking! A: Well, I've looked. I've looked in the past. I have an idea of how long it typically takes us. R: Okay. A: I don't know how long the longest was. R: I'll say this: this might be longer only because the only way to make it longer was to go meta and discuss the fact that it takes us a long time to get around to reading the first question as a way to delay reading the first question. A: Is there something wrong with your glasses? Why are you delaying? R: I was enjoying settling in, A: Oh, okay. R: Sharing the moment, A: Well, that's lovely. R: Smelling the lovely closet-y aroma. A: You just commented on the aroma of your closet- R: I'm going to just grab the cards. Yeah, we got things to do, kid. Things to do. First question on this card A: Yes. R: Enabling us to stop talking about the fact that we're sitting next to all my shoes and they smell. A: That was a choice you made just now. That was another choice you made. R: That was a truth I shared is what I like to say. I have shared a truth. A: You're not even sitting close to the shoes. I'm the one sitting close to the shoes. R: Yeah. That's one of the perks of being in charge. You get to sit a full 2ft away from the smell of your own feet. A: Well done. R: Someday, someday all of that will be your problem. A: Thanks. R: Least I can do. So the first question on the card here now A: Is? R: "How do real clown situations differ from their usual portrayals in popular media? For example; the birthday party, busking in the tourist quarter, between burlesque acts, and distracting bulls away from fallen cowboys. A: Well, that's not a small question. Okay R: No, settle in. I will say that I have a limited experience with some of these, and I don't know, there's a lot here. A: I feel like we can take this on together. I don't think that- R: The back and forth, A: The back and forth is going to work as well. R:Well, then, since I did the asking, I'll start with you. Tell me about the media portrayal of the birthday party and how it differs from your experience. A: From my experience, of the birthday party. R: Your lived experience. A: Well, I'm not 100% sure that I've got a clear view on what the media portrayal actually is. I can say that I have not done a lot of birthday parties. What I have discovered is that what appears to be requested when it comes to what someone's looking for from a birthday party clown is some combination of a babysitter, a face painter, and a balloon twisting artist. R: Like a vending machine wearing grease paint. A: And those are all totally awesome skills if you have them. They are not the skills I have. R: Not even a little bit here. A: I have done like, one birthday. I've done like, one birthday party wherein I went and played with a lot of kids on jungle gym equipment and we just played the imagination games that the kids were already playing. And I just helped that along and then eventually did the required few minutes of juggling that the parents seemed to really want. And that was about it. R: I wasn't there. A: I had a great day. R: I wasn't there. I'm having trouble piecing this together and I suddenly realized this wasn't one I was a part of. A: You were not there. R: Wow. A: I took this one by myself. R: Good for you. A: I mean, it was through the company- R: Through the agency, A: Through the agency, through the company. But it was one that I was on my own for, I think. I don't know that I can really speak to it. I know that it's not the skill set I have, R: But what about it? The question is, what about that differs from the birthday party? I know the trope. The trope is some poor schmuck, I'm leaning into that. Some poor schmuck in a clown costume goes to a kid's birthday party and it's sad and they don't have any skills. Unlike us, who are highly skilled, sad people in costumes. A: I think that the majority of birthday party clowns, from what I have been able to gather really know their stuff, and it is not sad at all. It's actually very enjoyable. They know what they're doing. They are giving exactly what the kids and the parents are expecting, and everyone has a good time. R: You know, there are two types of clown performers in the world, I think. There are those who can do children's birthday parties marvelously, and then there is those who don't. And I think the secret of success in this work is to figure out which one you are very quickly. I think of the people who do it well, and I immediately think of the Payaso, the Mexican party clowns. A: Oh, they're amazing. R: Their whole skill set is they're sort of like MCs and they engage and they bring games and they bring little sketches, and they're really about keeping a party moving, making a party where there's nothing. And we're much more about coming into an environment and exploring it. So it's almost like, well, how do you use a screwdriver to open something that requires a wrench? It's a totally different tool and a different skill set used to accomplish that. A: Yeah R: So I think the reality is any sadness that comes out of it is being an ill fit. I did do a couple, and I remember vividly the babysitter thing. But most of all, the tragedy was I was asked to come and perform, and I was asked to do something like that. They said, "It's time for you to do your show." And they moved me down front and they put me there, and then they turned a Disney film on behind me. And so there I was trying to compete with Disney. A: That's ridiculous. R: It is ridiculous. Why have both? Disney was probably that day cheaper. But the reality is they didn't really know what to do with us either. So I think the reality, not the depiction, is that the people who have the skill set to come in and take charge of the situation and make it a good experience do really well with that. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: And I'm in awe of that and not that person. So let's checkbox that one. A: Yeah, I think that covers that R: Busking in the tourist quarter or a tourist area. A: I have not gotten the chance to do that. R: Really? A: Really. I've witnessed busking both in the United States and in Europe. R: But you've never passed a hat yourself A: But I have not passed a hat myself. R: Well, moving on, we have different experiences. That's good. Do you have any idea how they were different, like on the screen versus in the room? Well, on the street. A: I feel like media might portray that busking is a thing that happens more in America than it does. R: True. A: And implies that if you have a skill, go ahead to whatever is close to your downtown and busk. R: Where it's not always legal. A: I was about to say make sure you've checked your local laws before deciding to make that an attempt because a lot of anti-panhandling legislation is written in such a way as to definitely include buskers, so you won't be able to be out there legally. R: It's interesting. This city where we are based did not used to allow for any street performance at all in the central business district. And some number of years ago, they revised the law, and there was a group trying to get that into the public consciousness, getting people comfortable with the idea. And they did a big project with the city in one of the big parks. And they brought us in as one of the performers. They had some musicians, they had us had a few other things going on. And it was really interesting because I've gotten to do it and I've done it there, and I've done it other places, but it's absolutely a different experience. When you see on TV, you see somebody does a show and then passes the hat and magically, there's money. That's how that works. But in reality, it's not like that. In reality what I think is the problem is when you take the hat and you hold it out, you make it about that, and then you put it down, and then you start doing your show, and then midway through, you have to explain that there's a hat. And then you go onto the next trick and you start building towards a big thing where you're explaining that there's a hat and everything. "Before you do the next big trick, I want to remind you there's a hat." And it all becomes about that. And to me, at least, it stops being about the work, and- A: Because it's all about the hat. R: It's all about the hat. And it has to be, it has to be. It is the structure of that. And don't get me wrong, some of the greatest performers that have ever worked on a stage got their start street performing. Some of them, I think, like me, figured out, oh, I don't like that aspect of it, but I will tell you one thing that you never see on TV that I love, but I gotta tell you the bad side and the good side. A: Okay, A: So the bad side looks like this. You're out there doing your thing. You've been asked to perform. You've been given the green light to perform. You're out there doing your thing, you got your hat out, you're doing the whole thing. And a family comes by and you're like, "Hey!" and the mother grabs the head and says, "No, thank you. We don't want that." And walks them away. Like your whole thing became about a sales pitch that's dark and grim and sad. A: Oh, that's awful. I have had that happen. I have been mistaken R: oh A: -as somebody who is busking. When I was on one of our larger walk around roving events R: *Affirmative noise* A: -Where families were going through that didn't necessarily know that there was an event going on. R: *Affirmative Noise* And so they were like, "No, thank you" A: Straight up. I've had somebody walk through turn- like, pull their child away from me. R: Oh, that's the worst. A: And say, "No, thank you" R: To brighten the mood. A: *Affirmative noise* R: And we can loop back if we need to. The good side of this is every now and then you'll see a family. The family will watch for a while, and they'll confer. They turn into a little meeting, A: *Affirmative Noise* R: -and then somebody opens their wallet or their purse. They hand money down to the smallest child they have. Like, they go get one if they don't have a small child here. A: *laughs* R: And they explain it. Like, if you, like the performer, go ahead and put this in their hand and explain the ritual of it. And you see a toddler with money in their hand come toddling towards you. Like, they can barely walk. And usually they're very young, but they're happy and they're timid and they're afraid that they're going to do this. And you know, take the money out of it. You just gave a child child understands what money is. They're not stupid. I vote for that. I like that. I want that. I want to feed that. I want that to be in the world. I want candy. I want that. And the child gets to do that. And I think more people would be benefited by giving children that experience. And it's interesting because you can get right up alongside a lot of, you know, business versus arts sort of conversations. And that's not what's exciting. What's exciting is this child is, like, timid and scared and afraid and is trying to put this in, and you need to have a moment with them, but also not scare them and also not stop having this giant show that's going on. And so you're trying to do all these three things. So as a performer, it's really exciting and for them it's a big moment. They're supporting the arts in the most literal way. And the family is over there having a great time because they're getting that moment and everybody's winning, and it doesn't happen all the time, but when it does, it feels really good. And you never see a depiction of that moment. And that is the moment. The other moment I've had, I got hired to work at a really really, big festival. And as I was leaving and I was leaving to go back to my hotel for the night, I saw a kid out front of this giant festival with a guitar and a guitar case playing his heart out. And he couldn't have been older than 14 and I just, whatever money I had, I just threw at him, and I was having a great week, and I was being paid really well to do my job. So I said, "Here you go. Share the wealth". And the kid looked at me like, clearly, it was the first time it had ever happened. And you could see, I don't think he believed it was going to happen. A: Oh wow. R: And he learned that it's good. So it's not about the money, though. It's about- A: The appreciation R: -the validation, the appreciation. Yeah. I think that's what you don't see in the media portrayal, because the truth is and I'll be completely transparent about this. Busking is terrible money, for the most part, if the area does not support it vividly. It's very difficult to make a living that way. We were doing it because our company wanted to promote that happening in our city, not because we thought we would make a paycheck that way. A: I think there are places in the world where you can. R: Oh, yeah. It's just not here. And I've not done any hat work outside of the States. What I will say, though, is I did come up with the best hatline of all time, hatline is when you're presenting your hat and you say, "Thank you very much, please pay me". But I came up with a good hatline. I told everybody, I said "Thank you very much. If you give us a little bit of money, we'll spend it on food. Thank you. And if you give us a lot of money, we will spend it on food and anything we have left, we'll spend it on soap because we've been out here in the Texas heat all day. You're welcome". A: Nice. R: And it worked. A: *laughs* R: It worked. So that's a good one. No further thoughts on busking. A: No, I think that's it. R: I think that's good. So the next one is- Ah, this I have a lot of experience with, you have a bit of experience, "between burlesque acts". A: You know, the thing- R: Boobie Boobie Boobie Boobie Boobie, HaHa, Boobie Boobie Boobie Boobie Boobie, Haha. Like that. That's you. A: That's me? R: Well, that's all of us. That's the job that just got described. A: That is the job. That's the job. R: I will expand that to say that vaudeville- Burlesque is also the whole of vaudeville, the whole of variety performance. A: So we're talking more Fozzie bear than- R: That would be the media portrayal. Yeah. Milton Berle and Fozzie bear. Yeah. There you go. A: Oooh, Ouch. R: That's you. Boobie, Boobie, Boobie, Milton Berle, Boobie, Boobie, Boobie, Fozzie bear. A: *laughs* R: I'm just going to say that until this isn't- A: Until this isn't funny anymore? R: Because it's still funny. Right? A: It's still funny. I haven't done as much of this. R: You've done some. A: I've done some. Particularly when you expand it to variety on the whole, as opposed to specifically burlesque R: *Affirmative noise* A: -as that term is currently applied, R: That's not to diminish actually not to diminish burlesque performance, which I think is very cool. A: No, no. Just a recognition that the term has changed. R: Yeah. A: Because at one point it didn't refer to a- R: It referred to the entire night of variety, not a type of performance. A: And it now means a type of performance where in an interesting way, people are removing their clothing, which is awesome. But I'm trying to think of how it differs. R: Well, what's the reality of it like? A: The reality of it? Well, for one, people actually do think things are funny sometimes. I feel like I feel like the portrayal is always of somebody just failing. R: The desperation is there for sure. A: Yeah. Where it's just like, "Okay, I'm here. Good luck"- R: You know where that comes from? You know where that really comes from? It's not about- It's not about making fun of bad comedians. A: Where does it come from? R: So often during a set change or you've got something going on that you need to close the curtain, A: *Affirmative noise* R: They push the comedian up, the comic, the vaudeville clown, A: Yeah. R: -the comic out front. And so just keep them busy for a minute while we do this so the energy doesn't drop. A: Oh no. R: And so they have to be ready on a moment's notice to be literally grabbed by the lapels and thrown on a stage. And I think the desperation is "Okay, I've got something in my bag of tricks for this, ahh but something is going on. You don't know." I have been in both situations. I've been asked to fill for time. I've been in situations where lighting boards blew out. I've been in situations where pieces of rigging would not unbolt from the ceiling, and they needed to fill time, and they shoved me out there, and ya hope the audience loves you. I've been out there when I just was having a nice moment and doing my thing, and it was good. The clown often gets plugged in as that like, fill the low energy area, go out and be human with the people. A: And, I've done that. I've done that with things. But normally when I've done it, it's been part of the plan. R: "All part of the plan" You know, when we started, and I know where you got your opportunities from. When we were doing the variety shows coming up- A: *Affirmative Noise* R: We didn't have a curtain and we didn't have a wing. A: Yeah. R: We used to joke that we were too poor to afford these nice theater things, but we had a stage and some lights, and we were going to make it work. And what that meant is you could see the techs. A: Yeah R: You could see the techs watching the show. You could see the techs watching the board. You could see the techs moving the gear on and off the stage. And at first they were just, like, very nervous about it. And eventually we all kind of got the idea that, like, that's your moment. You're moving a mic stand, you got a cable. You get one chance, and as long as you're either making the room happy or not killing the moment, it's yours. And if you do something brilliant, it's great. And everybody leaned into that, and I leaned into it and said, okay, anytime someone sees that opportunity, let's use it. And we trained a lot of clowns that were like sound techs. A: I took my turn as sound tech, yeah. R: And the edict in that show, the gag in that show is that the host that I was playing wasn't allowed to touch the microphones or the tech. He was too destructive, couldn't touch the tech. A: Yup. R: The reality was I was trying to support performers and techs learning their skills and I wanted to back them up. But it was really funny because there became this thing where, like a microphone needed to be moved, and I was standing on stage and I wasn't allowed to touch it and if I went to lean to help, someone would literally come and chase me out of the way and they would have this power moment. It was very funny stuff, but it's born out of the greater need of the overall picture of the show. And I think when you're looking at the media portrayals, we see the sweaty desperation of the comic. We don't see the bigger picture of why that's going on. A: Yeah. R: So I think that's the big one. The other thing is that if you are in a show, it's very common in modern burlesque to have every performance is a burlesque performer in the modern definition, A: *Affirmative noise* R: -burlesque performer, someone who is doing an erotic dance routine of some sort. And in that you're bringing in a contrast. And the audience either loves that they've been given a break because they were starting to go -And I did not make this term up- but they're starting to go "Boobie Blind" where they've just seen so much or they've seen enough skin that they need a reset. And I am the perfect solution to that problem because- A: *laughs* R: I am in every way the opposite of that, including in the way I work. So there's the contrast and so, hopefully they're excited about that or again, it's just something different. And I love the classic vaudeville. You got a song, you got a poem, you got a dancer, you got this, you got that, you got a circus, you got a clown. I love those kinds of shows. I've always been a big fan of them. It's the sort of variety that I enjoy doing. And, you know, I think there was a vaudeville movement and neo-vaudeville movement, and I think we've lost it a little bit now in the name of trying to do as much of one thing as we can. And I would love to see more opportunities to return to that. And evening, you have a show and the evening is spent with the show, and maybe you have a couple of drinks or you have dinner. I'm worried about dinner theater because I've had rough experiences, but I like the idea of the audience just sort of relaxing, and then they get a little bit of everything over the course of the night, and maybe it gets a little bawdy later at night, or maybe it gets a little emotional at some point, but it gets all these different flavors. A: Yeah. R: And I like that. A: Yeah. I love that. I think we were in the middle of a resurgence before everything shut down, R: Maybe A: So it may pick back up again. R: I was noticing the problem of losing specifically not variety performers, but variety performance, where you start seeing a little bit of everything and that sort of skill share going on where everybody was presenting their creativity. I hadn't seen as much of it in recent history, and I missed it. A: Yeah, R: And I think I would like to, at some point, again return to that because it's a fun way to work, A: Yeah. R: And the pressure is off everyone. No one person has to do it all. It's very low pressure, so it's fun to throw that together. I've gotten to be the guest in- both produced those shows, but also gotten to be the guest in other people's variety shows. And it's so much fun to show up and like, everybody knows each other and you're the new person, and they get to know you and they love you and they're excited for something new, but they also feel comfortable and familiar. That's a fun place to end up. A: That's nice, yeah. R: It's a fun place to be. It's a fun place to end up. A: What else have we got? R: The last one is "distracting bulls away from fallen cowboys." I have not done this, so I can't speak to it. The closest I have ever gotten. I was asked to be a moral support clown. They had a water station at a charity marathon. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: And they said, "We want you out there and want you to cheer people on." And I didn't really think about it until I got out there, but I'm standing up there, and then suddenly a couple of thousand people run past you all at once. And- A: That's a lot of people. R: It's intimidating. And instead of standing on the side and waving, I was in the middle of the street, and I realized it was like the running of the bulls. And next thing I knew, I was like a matador going "Toro! Toro!" and just trying to make something happen. And it got really funny because I was literally a human idiot in the middle of this run of human bulls. And people started doing bull horns with their hands as they ran past me. And it got really funny. A: That's great. R: It worked out really well. And eventually somebody tossed me a little cape. It was like a piece of cloth, flag or cloth- something. They handed me something that was red. And so immediately, from far away, you see me standing there like a matador as you come running towards me. And then I pull it out. And then people just get excited. A: Oh, yeah, that's got to give them a great charge. R: They put their horns on. Then you tell them that they were adora-bull. Unstoppa-bull. A: *laughs* R: Yeah. Any bull joke- A: Invinci-bull R; Invinci-bull, Yeah, any bull joke you can come up with. This is my joke. Don't steal it. I came up with this. I was very proud of it, but, yeah, that's the closest I've ever gotten. I will say that is also the event where I finished a marathon. A: But you weren't hired to run it. R: It's true. I also wasn't at the start of it, but I had to show up at the end. Honestly, I had to show up at the end, you know, to meet up and get my check. So I'm there, and I couldn't park anywhere nearby. And so I parked a couple of blocks away in full dress. And so I'm going to go walk towards all the people. And I walked towards all the people. I wasn't really thinking about it. No one was really thinking about me because they knew they had all seen me. They're like, "Hey." I'm like, "Hey!" yeah, so I'm like "This way, right?" And they're like, "Yeah, the left up ahead!" and I'm like "Okay". And I'm just walking along, and I turn left, and I realize I'm walking towards the finish line, and I've been talking to the runners. A: Oh, goodness. R: So suddenly I'm walking towards the finish line in full drag, and there's a lot of people and a lot of media coverage watching me walk towards the finish line. And it's sinking in that I have made a decision, and I am puffing up my chest going, "That's right. I'm here to be funny" Somebody came running and did a floor slide with this big, long camera lens and shot this great picture that I sadly do not have. But it was on the cover of the newspaper of me- A: Oh great R: "Clown finishes off such and such marathon". It was like, "Oh, that's nice". And I ended up walking. But they made a big deal of it because it was so funny. They made a big deal. They presented me with a medal, A: wow R: -Which I still have. So I was given a medal. I got to stand on the winner circle. I got to go to the part of the after party, none of which was part of my plan. And I was not booked to do that. It was already happening. And at that point, they were getting a little extra work out of me that day because it was too funny and I was going to be able to tell this story. But that is the closest I've ever come to keeping the bulls at bay. How about you? Have you ever been in a barrel? A: I have not. I did actually find myself doing a deep dive on learning about this, though. R: What prompted that? A: When I moved to Texas, I was staying with some cousins who are locals. R: *Affirmative Noise* A: And when I say my cousins are locals, I mean, they are Texans. They are proud of being Texans. R: Lots of people are. A: And therefore, they took me around to every Texas thing they could. R: Okay. A: And one of these is, of course, to go up to Fort Worth and go see a- I have lost the term. R: You've lost it. Here, let me help. I'll hold up the- A: But the card doesn't have that- Rodeo! Wow, brain. I- R: You- A and R together: -lost the word rodeo. A: I'm talking about rodeo clowns. R: -Clowns, but you couldn't- A: But I couldn't come up with the word. R: Well, they're kind of inseparable. A: They are inseparable. Okay, so we went to the rodeo and I didn't think much about it. But then I saw that rodeo clowns don't just do the thing that is hopping into the arena to pull the attention of a bull away from a fallen cowboy. They also do bits. R: Wait in the middle of the- A: They do bits in the arena. R: Now I have a new found respect, new found respect... A: Between things. It's a tradition. And they have a whole bunch of different bits that are standards. R: Okay. A: And they're different standards than you'll see in circus, which I think is really interesting. R: I would imagine thematically they would have to be. A: And one of the most bizarre things I saw when I was doing a dive on this is that where in American clowning we joke a lot that all American clown sketches end with "Why I oughta". R: You have to learn how to say it appropriately before you're allowed to graduate from any American clown program. Say it, show us. A: Why I oughta! R: Ops! And then you run away A: And then you chase somebody off. R: Why I oughta! A: Ahh! R: Yeah, like that. A: So there's that fact that that is how you end- I mean, hopefully- R: That's really bad A: -that's not how you end a routine. R: That's how you end your career after a certain- A: Yeah, but it is how some classic gags end. And that is not how rodeo clowns end their gags. R: Do they say, "Giddy up?" What do they do? A: A bull is released- R: What??! A: *laughs* Into the area. R: No. A: Yes. R: Really? A: At least one. At least- R: Pinky swear! A: Pinky swear. R: It happened A: Pinky swear. I have seen video footage of- I don't remember whether it was three or four clowns came out and set up a card table in the middle of the arena. R: Yeah. A: And started playing cards. R: Okay. A: In a very clown, very over the top, very big way. I don't remember what else happened. I'm confident something else happened. R: Sure. A: I have completely forgotten because all I can remember is all of the clowns throwing the cards in the air as a bull had been released into the arena. R: Wow. A: One of them distracting the bull and the rest of them clearing the card table and the cards. R: I need to take a moment officially, to any audience I've ever intimated was a rough audience or the show was rough. And I- I have never been stampeded off by 1500 lbs of angry pot roast. I officially have been complaining too much. The rodeo clown wins the day, as far as I'm concerned. Thank you. A: Yeah, so it is a- I don't know 100% how media portrays it, R: I didn't know about that A: -but it is intense. R: All I know is clown jump in barrel, you know, bull wander around. That's all I knew. I had no idea about what you just told me. A: Oh, yeah. R: We're going to find a link and we're going to share this. A: Yeah R: 'Cause it's too good not to. That sinks the question. So the answer is we don't watch enough television. A: Correct. R: And we have very bad opinions about what happens when we're asked to. And I did not know enough about rodeo to know that it was a lethal blood sport. A: *laughs* R: So there you have it. Next question. A: All right. Next question. R: All right. A: "How did you explain your choice of profession to the people in your life. When going off to clown school?" R: I took them with me. A: *laughs* R: I mean, the reality is that, you know, I live in a little clown house with my little clown family, and we do clown things, and we go on adventures. You know, we're very a tight knit little group. And because of that, I've never had- I'm just, like I joked, I didn't really have to come out to everybody except for them to go "You being a clown makes sense" but what I will say happened that was interesting was something I've come to think of as "The Gap", the physical gap between people, which was when I was getting started, getting my health together I was a very unhealthy person. I haven't really talked about this during this, but I used to weigh 300 plus pounds, and the plus was a lot of pluses. I smoked two packs a day. I used to drink. Circus saved my life because it gave me a reason to get in my body and a reason to play and something to get into. And I got very involved in. That's why I'm as passionate about it as I am, because I'm convinced it saved my life. But during the time where I was sorting that out, I had friends that were younger and active and doing all the things, and they were occasionally sitting on the couch, and I was occasionally getting off the couch. And I think we were friends because of that little space that's there that we shared- A: The overlap? R: The overlap. And then what happens is I become more active and they get a little older and a little more sedentary. And I'm like, "Let's go do a thing!" and they're like, "You know, I'm going to just stay here". I go, "okay" And I go. And then you end up meeting more people and they're doing things. And when you first get into circus arts, flow arts, circus arts, all of it, it's really exciting because the early part, and this is what I love about it, it's very accessible. Anyone can try juggling. You can throw a hat in the air. You can try your hand at stilts. If someone will help you, you could try a little- There are simple acrobatic moves you can try. There's a lot you can try. And I was trying everything. I was like, and my belief is that if you're interested in circus arts, try everything and figure out the one that grabs you and focus in on that for a while. And then as you step back from it, don't think, "Oh, I'm losing the magic". Just see what else is there. But what happened was all of these young people were with us. I was a bit older than everybody around me because I think a lot of people either were healthy from the get go or had stopped trying to do these sorts of things. I was going and doing and out there and excited and little by little, this thing happened where once you got past that beginner's mind, that nice open "Everybody can play" moment and it actually requires the time and the focus and the willingness to keep going. A: The determination. R: Yes, the determination. There becomes a little bit of a gap, and that further happens- I remember one of the founding members of the circus freaks was this incredible movement artist. I mean, just incredible. And we were all in awe of their skill. And we all would say things like, "Oh, we're going to get up to your level. Just give us a chance. We'll just keep going" Everybody was happy and we all got a little better. They stayed there. We got a little better. They stayed there. One day we got at the same level, and it was great. 'Cause we're like "Oh, we're doing all this stuff". And then we kept getting a little better. The core troupe, and this person stayed there, and we passed them, and suddenly there was a gap. And we were like, "Come on" And they were like, "*non-commital noise*. They got intimidated because I think they were just young and happy and doing. And we were in an iterative creative physical process. And there became this gap. And this gap manifests all the time and the ultimate place it manifested for me- I remember when I decided to get interested in acrobatics, and I was working with some acrobats, and one day I dragged myself, the worst kid in the room. I said, I dragged myself in the room, and I realized everybody there was half my age, had eight years of circus training. I didn't know what I was doing. I barely had the physical capacity to be in the room. But- And you've heard me say this. A: Yes, I have. R: But I was in the room. And being the worst kid in the best room is a really interesting place because you can see both sides of it. You can see with great respect all the work someone is doing that you haven't done yet. And you can see how far you've come reflected off people who are in their spot on their journey. And unfortunately, there have been a lot of spots where that was lonely, whether it was because I was working with someone who was just so far above my level, they had to go do their own thing or because I had just kept going. And why I'm so excited about working well with you right now is because you and I are learning a skill together. And so for the first time, I've got someone I'm working with together. I mean, I've studied clown with lots of people in clown, but I mean, a circus skill. A: Yeah. R: And so that's really exciting. So I didn't have anyone who was going to react negatively, but a lot of people, I think, just organically stepped out of my life. And it's a little sad. But then you have the reunion, you catch up to them one day, and it's really nice. They see you at a show and they're like, "Wow, when did this happen?" You're like, "Well, you remember that three years when I wasn't around? That's what I was working on" and that's what a lot of it's about for me. So that's how I answer that question for you. "How did you explain your choice of profession to the people in your life when you went off to clown school, when you went off to it?" A: I didn't. *both laugh* A: At least not initially. So when I first got involved in flow arts, R: Which we have defined previously. A: Yes. When I first got involved in flow arts, I think I described that and explained that mostly that I was getting in shape and I found a fun way to do that. R: Oh, yeah. A: And I was hanging out with friends. However, fire was involved, so my family members were not so very thrilled- R: I think justifiably concerned. Is the right answer- A: Yes. So, not thrilled and so as I found myself getting further involved in getting more interested and think I just didn't bother explaining myself to a lot of the people around me. I just said, "I'm going to be doing this thing, and I'll see you later" because my best case scenario was going to be kind of a, you know that thing where somebody has decided that it's their job to be supportive, but they actually don't want you to be doing any of the things you are doing? So they say all the supportive things? R: I get the idea, A: -but they don't mean them. R: I get the idea. A: I ran into some of that, and I kind of knew that I was going to be running into that. And so I just sort of filled people in as it had already happened. R: So, I know for a fact that you were encouraged towards music. You were encouraged towards theater. A: Yes. R: Why do you think that within the work, this thing that you were suddenly interested in, was it just the danger level that they didn't like? A: I think danger level was a big part of it. I also think that there's a level to which it just wasn't something they could understand? R: That's tough. A: So, that- That has been tough. But I also have friends and chosen family around for whom in a very similar way to you. I didn't have to tell them I was doing this because they watched as I was doing it. They were there for it. They were part of it. They were around. R: You know, when you train for many hours a day and you know at the end of the day- this may as well be a shout out to a bunch of friends who have kept this company through a lot of this- You know very quickly who your friends are because they're willing to just be there with you so you're not alone through a lot of work. A: Yeah. R: And I have never once had a moment where I didn't feel grateful for that because a lot of times coming up in this work, it's very lonely because you have to convince yourself to go do a thing in the applause is few and far between. And the rewards- You know, at first, the early days, the rewards are pretty manifest- and you take every little victory, but then the further along you get, the less people are cheering unless you're doing something big. A: Yup. R: So I'm always very grateful for that. I think we've answered this question. A: Yeah. I think that answers that question. R: Pretty well. We veered around a bit. A: Then I believe it's your turn. A: Is it my turn? A: -to ask the next question. R: To ask the next one. Wow. Okay, here we go. The next question. "Have you ever had encounters with clowns from other clowning traditions/schools/philosophies," -those are slashes, I should have said- "And how did it go when you tried to clown around or collaborate with each other?" That's a really good question because it specifically says somebody who wrote this understands that there's more than one school of thought to this. And I don't just mean the idea that you and I, therefore we have two opinions about something, that there are A: Full different schools yeah. R: Absolutely. And the word the word philosophies and traditions, that's a super. A: Yeah. This is a great question. R: It's good. A: I've had very limited experience with other traditions. I feel like much of what we do has done some interesting fusion of American and European clown, leaning towards the European clown side. R: I think so. It says so on our bio. A: Yeah, that seems to be the way we tend to do things. I have not worked on stage, like on a show, with a clown from a different tradition. R: It's rare that you're going to be thrown together with someone without like that being whether it's an audition process or you're part of a troupe. It's rare that you're going to show up and they're going to. "Okay, you two go do this thing." It's very rare that's going to happen. So it's not that unusual. A: But I have done some overlap in workshop. R: Yes. A: In one case, taking workshop run by American clowns, which was- that was just me learning a lot of stuff. That was pretty early in my career, so I didn't really know what I was doing yet. R: Okay A: And then later I did one workshop where the majority of the other people taking the workshop were Payaso. R: And how does that go for you? A: It was a struggle in a lot of ways. Payaso, the Mexican party clown, as we mentioned earlier, is a very different discipline. Like what they are used to doing is not what I'm used to doing. What we were studying, the workshop was focused more on a European clown style. R: *Affirmative Noise* A: But not only did I have this gap between my knowledge base and their knowledge base, just as to which directions we were coming at it from, there was also a language gap, a language barrier. So these were people who were primarily Spanish speaking and I do not speak Spanish. R: And that tripped you up. A: That made it very difficult because we had both received instructions for whatever the piece that we were supposed to be working on as an example project piece was. But it's very interesting when you literally receive those instructions in two languages. R: Yeah. I could see that A: And then, you know, you're trying to build through something, and it's very difficult to communicate. And even showing people what you're thinking about and then them showing you what you're thinking about gets to be very complex. And I mean, I wouldn't say that it was a failure. I mean, we succeeded in doing the pieces that we were supposed to do. But I can say that much like how we pointed out the other day that almost everything has some percentage of plan and some percentage of improv. R: I think the improv was up a little bit. A: Improv was up a little bit. And I felt very much like it was a big lesson in just how much when you're doing something improvisationally and you think you're leading something in a particular direction because you've got an idea and you're hoping your partner is going to go with you on this idea, and you put something out there. Just how very differently somebody can take what it is you led with and just take it in a completely different direction. And then you just have to completely wipe your brain of any ideas you had, because now you have to respond to thing they've given you. And that's a standard in improv- R: Sure. A: -anyway. But this really doubled down on it for me. R: Do you think it was an issue of language, or do you think it was an issue of culture? A: I think it was both. I think there were already going to be complications due to the culture/philosophy/school barrier. And then those were just compounded by the fact that we did not speak the same language, because I think if we had come from similar schools of- like, I think I could work with a Spanish speaking clown from a European tradition. A: Where it's very easy for us to communicate because we're running we're coming back to some of the same key ideas, and half of those take words from Italian or something else anyway. R: Sure. A: So it's actually fairly easy to find a way to at least come back to those ideas and say, you know, more or less something like that. R: Gotcha A: That's not that hard. But when you- I know nothing about- R: your lost A: -Payaso, I know nothing about how that tradition is done. I've got some idea of what it ends up looking like, R: *Affirmative Noise* A: But I know nothing about how it's taught or what the thought process is that goes into it. So I didn't have any touchstones R: To find- A: To find my way through- R: Oh yeah. A: to that communication. And European style clowning was, to at least a couple of people who I worked with over the course of that workshop was very, very new. So they were struggling to identify what any of those principles were or any of those ideas were. So we had no touchstones on either side to find translations- R: Got you. A: -from. And it was just a big struggle. I learned a lot, I think, but it was a big struggle. R: Well, if you happen to ever spot the Rosetta Stone of Clown Theory, please send it along. In the meantime, you should probably ask me the same question. I did have a thought for you, though. A: Yes. R: So one of the things that happened to me that was so different than your experience A: *Affirmative Noise* R: I so early on got different disciplines taught to me. It was very early on. I got exposed to one after another American clown and then European clown, and then I did a bunch of research, and I learned about like Heyoka, which is the shaman clown, A: Yeah. R: And then different dance traditions and all of these different things. I got exposed to so many of them at once that I think I sort of intrinsically caught on that there was always going to be translation issues. There was always going to be a problem of trying to make sense of it. And because of that, whether it was cultural or language didn't matter. I was always trying to find my way through it. And I think it encouraged me from day one to go looking for, you know, that common ground. I think that was very much thing that I wish I thought to mention before you walked into any of those rooms, because when you have that barrier, you're so stressed out, but, you know, at a certain point saying less. I mean, it works functionally, A: Yeah. R: but if you miss the key things, you're doomed. It doesn't matter. A: Yeah, R: That's tough. A: "Have you ever had encounters with clowns-" R: I have. A: "-from other clowning traditions/schools-" R: I have, A: "- slash philosophies?" R: -because as I said, I studied with a bunch of different things. And what I think happens is something one of my students actually said really rings a bell to me. They said- we had a new student in the residency program. We had a new student come in, and we were going to have to figure out how to incorporate them into what we were doing. And this wonderful person who later went on to perform with us for a while, said "We'll just go back to the beginning because we can all use that refresher and we'll learn it as if it were new." And I think that has been a touch- I didn't have those words, but that has been a touchstone for me is that if I find myself in a situation where, okay, I have an opportunity to learn a new idea or a new perspective, I want to take it as something new. And I've seen interesting- the same exercise. A lot of these things that we learn, how we learn them is through games or exercises. And then you try to apply them to scene work. And so it's very mechanical. And then it gets in your reflexes. Then you put in the scene work and you add the character to it. There's a game which teaches you these sort of fixed point triangles of looking at the audience, looking at the item of interest, whether it's a prop or something, looking at your partner, then moving. And it's structured. There's a count to it. And I had one teacher teacher to me and teach me. They were a European clown teacher. And they taught me the rigid arithmetic of it and why it will be funny and how it supports your partner and how it keeps the scene coherent. And I understood it on like, a molecular level. And it was really cool. And I felt really good about it. And I came back and I ended up taking a workshop from an American clown here on physical comedy. And the same exercise came up, but she was amazing, and she taught me instead the same idea, but taught me the musicality of it, A: Ooooh R: the rhythm. Why does the rhythm work? And how do these things happen with different rhythms? And what do those rhythms say? And I was so grateful for that perspective on an exercise that I've taught as well and that I've used certainly in my work. And I later found out that both of these people had worked with the same teacher where they had learned it. So I got through this lineage of different perspectives, languages, styles, countries, cultures, the same tool taught to me in radically different ways. And it was a big eye opener because of how it's the same tool. It's all in how you approach it. And like you were saying, you were talking about how someone from another culture with another language has a different set of assumptions and how they work. And they don't know the thing that they're there to learn than you only kind of know the thing that you're there to learn, you know, at that stage. A: Yeah. R: And there's a lot of different struggles. And what happens is if you can get on the same page, you can make it work, A: *Affirmative Noise* R: Which the other place I learned this- we used to work with some acrobats. And I learned a really valuable lesson about the word complicity. In clown and in theater, you'll hear a lot about complicity. We're both in on a thing A: Yeah. R: -but it really refers to being able to work with someone, being able to be complicit with the audience, connected to the agreement with them. You have to have that in order to work. And in the case of the acrobats, they have to have it to work safely. And I deconstructed this idea into there are like three kind of principles of it. And, you know one is comfort. If I walk in the room and I'm uncomfortable, I can't work. A: Yeah. R: The other one is communication. What are we here to do. Can you explain it? Obviously, you know, if it stumbles, the whole thing falls apart. And then the last one is consent. It doesn't matter how much I am comfortable. It doesn't matter how much we've talked about it. If one of us doesn't look at the other and say, "Are you ready to do this? Are you good to do this?" And the other one doesn't say, "yes", you don't do it. A: Yeah. R: And the Acrobats are incredibly good about this. But how they did it was interesting. They got the room, they got warmed up and that made them comfortable. And they looked at each other, say "Ready to work?" and then they would go do really dangerous things all the way through, full speed. Because the requirement of what they did, the requirement of what they did was that they couldn't stop if someone got uncomfortable, because someone would die. A: Yeah. R: Whereas with what I do, with the clown work is to say, "Okay, everyone has to be comfortable. The audience has to be comfortable. Everyone has to be in a good place." And all the information, if it's blurry, well, the audience has a high level word for confusion. They love this word. Whenever they get confused because the information on stage is blurry, they call it boredom. That's the word they use for that confused state. They disconnect from what's going on because they don't understand it, so it's not for them. So communication is vital in this work. And then the last one is that consent. Was at every step, though, with the clown, "I'm going to do this. Are you comfortable? Okay, we're going to do this. Are you comfortable?" And it's a different paradigm of working and getting to see both ways it worked in this very dynamic action and this very static where at any moment we can stop and pause. And I've watched us try to work our way through. We both have the clown training based on this idea A: Yeah. R: And being able to stop and go, okay. Whereas somebody who didn't have that perspective, which is go through and then talk about it afterwards, we stop and we're like, okay- A: When we can, we've had to figure out how to get through the parts where we can't. R: Yeah, because you can't have an argument when you're standing on me. It doesn't. A: No, it doesn't work very well. And I know, like when you mention the acrobats and how once everyone said yes, you are now going, I have the voice of my Russian hand balance coach R: Who says A: Who says "If you are doing, then doing." R: "If you are doing, then you are doing", A: "Then you are doing" R: Yeah A: Which is- it's very important not to second guess yourself. R: Well yeah. A: Because if you indicated movement to a partner and then you don't follow through on it- R: That's as dangerous as doing it wrong. A: That is as dangerous as doing it wrong. R: Yes. A: So it has been very interesting to find where within that work, we can step back, check back in with people, reevaluate things, and where you just can't because you just have to you have to assume it's still working because nobody has called "down". R: Sure A: No one has said "it's time to stop" R: Right. And, you know, I think about it and I've learned things like that- Perspectives like that from probably every circus discipline, probably from every performer I've ever worked with - or gotten to train with or talk to. There's always a perspective to be learned because we're all trying to do the same thing. We're trying to do this weird ritualized, physicalized, imaginative, make believe stuff in front of an audience. So we're all kind of working on the same thing. We all go about it real different. A: Oh yeah R: -but we're trying to do the same thing. So that perspective, it's really interesting. On the deep end of the pool, going to the workshops on mask theater, and I've taken a few different mask theater workshops and how different that feels to everything else and then trying to take that and one of the things I really enjoy is trying to integrate that eventually, we're still getting there, but to integrate that into circus performance so you can have characters. We have a friend who's particularly good at this A: Yes. R: -and has been a guide and a teacher, shout out to David Poznanter A: oh yeah. R: -who is the person you go and study that- was one of the people you go and study the circus out of that with as well. Simultaneously we studied with Steve Jarand for trance mask and we're trying to integrate that work and do that. And those perspectives, they feel primordial. They feel like you have chained yourself to a train or a barking dog A: *laughs* R: -and you're trying to do something. They're wild experiences because you know they're under your control but they don't feel fully under your control and so you have to learn the rituals and the rules of them to handle that a volatile energy safely. A: Yeah R: And I feel the woo woo woo in what I just said. But it is true A: Well and we thought it was going to be a lot like clown since clown is the small mask and- R: It were not. A: It wasn't R: It were not. A: It was even more woo woo R: And that is fine. A:That was good! R: And so- A: It was mind bending though, to be learning it. R: What I will say, much like, you know, this idea that we do a lot of rehearsal in order to improvise, I don't think we would get in a room with anyone to create something without having to go through these same explorations. And I've worked with a lot of performers and what you're doing ultimately is you're trying to learn enough of each other's language so you can have that conversation. And if there is no conversation, then you smile and you nod and you move your props out of their way and they move your props out of you- A: Their props out of yours R: Yeah, thank you. You get on with it and it's not a lack of love it's just you are from too different a place on the journey to have any sort of connective tissue where you can communicate. A: Yeah. And come back after the next round of everybody taking a course somewhere. R: And I've said it's happened. Like I said, one of my first teachers came up and asked me about stuff I had learned eventually because we had ended up across from each other for a moment. A: And all of these paths involve continued study, going and studying under different people, learning more things, taking more workshops R: The only clown that is difficult to work with, I will say this, and I will get in trouble for it. The only clown that is difficult to work with is someone who learned how to do what it is they do 20 or 30 years ago and has been doing the same thing ever since and stopped learning. And the reason why is- never mind all the little details that could come to surface. But they're no longer communicating. They're doing a choreography. They're not in the room with you. On some level, they're so polished in what they do there's- The humanity to connect to in order to communicate with is gone. So watching them is breathtaking. Working with them, it's a mess. So that would be for me, the only one I haven't been able to work with, haven't been able to really communicate with is the person who isn't communicating anymore. A: All right. R: All right. Okay. That's the end of my answer. A: Well, then I will do the next question. R: Oh, I forgot. We had more. I'm excited. A: Yeah. We have more questions. R: Well, good. A: So here we go. R: Are you ready? A: Yes. Are you ready? R: That would be the important part, because I think you're about to read to me. A: I am about to read you a question. R: Good point. I'm not. A: What about now? R: Yeah. A: Okay. "If you could rename something, anything to become the public canon term for such a thing, what would you rename?" R: I love language because it's really stupid. The whole of language is actually linguistics as a "science" quote Unquote. It's a bunch of people yelling about what to write down and how to write it down. "What was that weird noise you made?" I love this, and I love that terms and grow over time. So I love that this came to us because I used to be very rigidly about where the comma gets used and how you spell things. And now I'm just excited to hear a new made up word. I'm very excited about that sort of silliness. But I am thinking that if I could pick something because I wouldn't want to make up words, I wouldn't want to control people's language like that. But if I wish to pick something that I could change, I could fix one. A: Oooh, What would you fix? R: Okay, this one's good. So you see, we are currently in the Dallas Fort Worth area, which if you go and look is referred to as the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex. A: That is a term I have seen, Yes. R: That is a term that I despise. And it crawls up me and it always bothered me and didn't know why. And I finally went and looked it up in my never ending copious free time and I looked it up. And it turns out that that was coined by an ad agency that was hired by the Board of Tourism back in the 70s. A: Okay. R: And so that is a made up word that was made up by an ad agency to describe two cities that were next to each other with another city between them or more accurately, a series of interconnected urban areas. And the thing is, there's already a word for that. And it's so good that I'm angry that it's not in use. A: What is the word for that? R: Megalopolis. A: Megalopolis. R: Megalopolis. Those connected cities. We are technically in the Dallas, Arlington, Fort Worth Megalopolis. A: Oh, that's wonderful. R: Isn't it good? I love it. So if I could fix anything, I don't want to tell people how to talk. I don't want to tell people what to do. I want people to play with words. I want them to make up new ones, nice ones if they can, mean ones if they have to. But I would fix that if I had to pick something and- I'd pick that because it bothers me. A: This is very funny because- R: I thought it was hilarious. A: One, it's funny in the first place. But then an additional level of funny. R: Two A: is that one of the names for things that have always driven me nuts is I grew up in the "Quad City Area. The Quad Cities is a group of five cities on the border between Iowa and Illinois. So if I remember correctly, two of them are in Illinois and three of them are in Iowa. And there have since become some additional smaller areas that are getting to a size where clearly the Quad Cities has just decided to stop counting. And interestingly, if you're on different sides of the river, because this is across the Mississippi River, if you're on different sides of the river, you will hear a different story as to which four cities are the official Quad Cities and which one is just a bonus city. And those differ depending on whether you are in Illinois or in Iowa. R: So I've got this right, The Quad Cities are comprised of a minimum of a variable, ill defined five cities. A: No, the five cities in question are very well defined. Which of them are the four Quad Cities variable. R: Well, clearly- A: -and then there are now additional ones. R: This is the word you need to fix. A: This is the word that I need to fix. And the word that I came up with when I was in high school and I was looking at this and going, "this is nonsense". Was "Quintopolis". R: Well, that makes sense. But you realize you could use Megalopolis. A: It is possible. R: I could save you. We could do it two-fer. A: I feel like each of the cities in the Quad City Area, which is what they now call it because they've given up. I feel like each of the cities in the Quad City Area are small enough that it may not qualify as a Megalopolis. R: Oh, that's embarrassing A: -because it really felt like growing up and I haven't gone back and double checked like what the actual population numbers are, but it felt like growing up, the only reason why any of it is considered a city is because all five of them are there. R: Well, there you have it. Geographically speaking, we're strongly opinionated- A: And we like -opolises. R: Apparently, we're both big on -opolises. Who knew? Weird. Anything else you want to rename while we're here? You want to take a moment? A: Well, no, we really only got one we got one re-name and I'm going with the Quintopolis. R: It said one. Oh, you're right. A: Well, it does say "something, anything" so I suppose we could come up with more if we wanted to. R: Anything else? You got anything else you want to fix? A: No. R: No? A: Not really. R: You're good with everything else. A: I'm confident I could find something else. R: Quick check. Where do you stand on the word moist? A: That's fine. R: That's fine? It doesn't bother you? A: Yeah, doesn't bother me at all. R: Okay. That's one usually people have opinions about, so I thought I'd throw it in there. Plus, I've never said moist during a podcast before, and now I've said it two or three times. A: Well done. R: Thank you. Well, that was that one. A: Yeah. R: All right. Here you go. You can read it to me. A: No, no I can't. R: What do you mean, "No no you can't"? You don't know the words? A: I do know the words. However, this one has an asterisk in front of the question. The statement "New York mob voice". And I don't have a New York mob voice. R: You don't have a New York mob voice? A: As you do, I don't want to offend you with the level of no New York mob voice I have. R: You can do this. I can walk you through this. Warm up with me. A: Okay. R: How'ya'doin? A: How'ya'doin? R: It's worse than I thought. Forget about it. A: Forget about it. R: No, seriously, forget about it. I'll do it. A: Okay. R: Because it's not going to- You want to try one more? Hey, I'm walking here! A: No, I'm not even gonna try that R: Come on. A: Hey, I'm walking here! R: *laughs* A: I told you, I don't have this accent. This is not one I've practiced. R: This is not a thing you've got. I'm a person, if you will, who knows how to talk like this. You do not. And that is fine. It's fine. But you should stop talking. Forget about it is what I'm trying to say. So the question. Your question in the New York mob voice. Best one I've-. Maybe I should do the other one. A: Do the other one. R: You see now I've got to do like this. You know, How you doing? Okay. "Hey, where did you hide the money?" Oh, that was good. A: That was really good, I like it. R: Very upsetting. A: Yeah. R: Okay. "Where did you hide the money?" A: There is no money. R: *exhales* Well, that was short. A: What money? There's no money. R: There's no money. A: I'm a clown! R: in a closet. I mean, You have a room. A: I have a room. I have a roof over my head and food in the pantry. But I do not have anything more. R: Well, that's sad. I'll give you a pair of socks or a nice hat. A: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. R: It's the least I can do. A: But I think this is a very fun, silly question. R: "Where'd you hide the money?" A: There is, I can always say, find the map. R: Find the map in the back of-. A: Wherein you'll find a path that will lead you through a set of complicated riddles and questions and make you have to steal some national monument in order to find the money. R: What happened to you? A: I've watched films growing up, it's fine. R: I see that, I see that. A: I mean, I can always go with that. But in reality, I don't have money to hide. R: I think on a more serious tack, the reality is "the arts" Making big bunny quotes around "the arts" is not something you get into to get rich. You always hear rich and famous. Maybe you'll get a little famous. And even if you're famous, it's a small number of people who do anything that gets them- Also that- "the rich" A: Yeah R: I'm lucky. As arts businesses, we did really well and we've done really well. We've done a lot of work. We work really hard. And that's led us to be in a place where, again, we get potatoes. A: Yeah. Like, we're weathering all of this. R: Yeah. And in the broader scheme, you may be working on a project that pays well or you may be a recipient of a grant or something like that. But again, they are a ton of work and they are their own thing. And it's difficult because I think there's the perception that walking around, you know, dressing silly, being funny, doing tricks is easy money. A: Oh, it's not. R: It's never been. And I remember I'll tell you, I remember early on a moment it got serious for us. My origin of the Circus Freaks story, very briefly. So we had a group of people that were a juggling club, and we were getting to the point where we're starting to get gigs. And we got offered a pretty impressive one back in the day, many moons ago, and we pulled everybody together. I have a little business meeting, all of us sitting around on the floor, as I recall, and I was explaining that, "Okay, so somebody called and they wanted to hire us. And it was going to be something where we had to get properly insured for this sort of stuff that they wanted us to do. And we were going to have to open a bank account and all those things that the actual businesses do." And one by one, everybody took their two fingers and they touched their nose. A: Two fingers? R: They all- or one finger or two finger- I don't know. The point is I didn't know what that was. I didn't know about the game 'Nose Goes' like "Nose goes! Who's going to do the dishes?" And the last person that touched them, "I have to do the dishes because I was slow". Everybody in the room went like this. And I was sitting there thinking, "What the heck are you talking about? What does that mean?" A: *laughs* R: And I start touching my nose they say, "It's too late, you're it. You're in charge here." I was like, "What?" They had already known that I was already doing that job, and they were already in support of me doing that job. And the moment that it came to be professional, the only reason why anyone was going to count beans and do that and do paperwork and do that was so we could keep doing the job. And since then, that's always been my perspective. It's about the work. Are we doing good work? We keep doing it. If it's hard that week, we help each other out. But it's never going to be about the bag of money, because if a bag of money fell from the sky, A: You'd best step out of the way. R: It will crush you. Yeah. I was going to say a duffel bag full of money fall in a minimum of two stories? A: Yeah. That's going to be a bad time. R: You're going to be killed. A: Yeah. R: So yeah, you don't want that. A: Step out of the way. Pick it up afterwards. R: Now you're thinking, I wish I had thought of that the last time the bag fell next to me. A: Yeah. I think you do it because you love it. R: And we do. I think one thing the last the last bit of time we've spent very, very close to home has taught me is, I'm doing the work because I love it because I want it and not because there's some pay off in the end. And I said this earlier, I said, if you don't love every bit of the dirty work, don't do it. A: Because if you decide to go down the route of taking how much you're getting paid on your show day and dividing that out by all of your rehearsal time, by all of your practice time, by all of your skill building time? R: Oh flip burgers. A: Don't do that. R: Flip burgers instead A: Don't do that. You don't want to see that number. R: Make coffees. Those are good choices. You know, the other thing I think about is and maybe this is the only business advice I could give to performers. I started out doing a lot of junk gigs, got to a point where I could do good gigs and I was like "Oh, I could do good gigs now" and that felt really good. That was a big deal. But the piece of advice I have is, as you're going through, realize one day that your work has value, and there will come a moment where someone will ask you to do something for exposure. First of all, realize people die from exposure every year. What they're actually asking to do is to do something for free or for the illusion of free or underpaid. And I came to the conclusion that I would rather work for free than underpaid. And here's why. It goes back to this thing about doing it for the love. If I'm doing the work and I'm on a job site and I'm being paid well, then I'm there for it. I've signed the contract, I've taken the deal. We're here to work. Doesn't matter what it takes if it's a little more work, but I'm already working. If someone's trying to cut the cost, well, then you have to think about cutting corners, and you immediately go into this mindset, like passing the hat around that it becomes all about that. And I don't think you can do effective, creative work when it's ultimately about that. I mean, it has to factor in. I'm not being super idealist here, but there'll come a point where someone will come to you and say, "Look, we're a tiny org and we're doing something that's very meaningful. Can you help us?" And at that point, rather than going, "Well, I'll cut you such a deal", say, "Yeah, I'm there." and it changes things, because at that moment, well, now I'm giving you my time, my energy, my exposure by choice- A: But you haven't lessened the value of it. R: Thank you for putting into better words than I could of myself. My advice is to value yourself, and you can give that value away, but don't undervalue yourself just to get the deal, because in the end, there will always be another deal. There'll always be another gig. There'll always be another project. As long as you're still working and doing A: And the person or the people involved in the project where you volunteer your time? They're going to remember that. They're going to remember what your rate is. And the next time they find a situation that can pay you, you're the one they're going to remember. R: And in fact, Circus Freaks built a lot of their reputation on exactly that because we would do work. We had kind of an outreach thing that there was a certain amount of work we were going to give away in the name of helping people and helping because we're loud. It's like the parade we talked about. We bring a lot of attention to a thing. If you bring us there, we're loud, visually, creatively, and so that energy has value and people get it. And so when we bring that, it's good that it gets remembered and they get seen well. That's weird. I don't normally talk about the work side, the bean counting work side of it. It's interesting because it's always a bit of a struggle because there's one part of me that absolutely is wearing the idealist hat. And there's another part of me that knows it is at the end of the day, it's a job. It's a weird job but you know, I got to make it work so I try to make it work and that's the one piece of advice that I found that makes no sense. It counters everybody telling you everything but it has worked for me and so we didn't hide the money but maybe we didn't take it a few times *both laugh* A: Accurate. R: And that is the last question we brought with us. A: Yup, that's all we've got. R: That's what we got for today. I think we did okay. A: There is, however, another stack. We will be back. R: We will be back. A: There's more questions to answer. R: We'll be back with another stack. A: Yeah, R: Oooh, why didn't we say? We would sound so together if we had just said that. A: Oh, well. R: Nothing to be done but escape now. A: Let us out! R: Before we go. Thank you for keeping us company in the closet. This has been A: "2 Clowns in a Closet" R: And we'll see you next time. *sound of opening a door*