----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 06 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2022-03-07 ----------------------------------- Russ: I am back in the closet again. Avalon: Welcome back. R: I know I have been off from closet duties for a few weeks. Context for our special friends here in the microphone in the closet. I've been working on editing and a few other things, and by now people know that also we had a special guest in the closet. A: We did. We had a special guest. R: But we can't talk about it because I haven't actually heard the episode yet. So no spoilers, please. A: No spoilers, okay. R: None from you either, microphone and friends on the internet do not tell me anything because as of this moment in time, I don't know anything and I aim to keep it that way. A: However, by the time they've heard that episode, you will have heard it. And by the time they've heard this episode, they definitely will have had the opportunity- You definitely will have heard it. They will have had the opportunity to hear it. R: Are you sure? Because I don't think you know how time works either. We've been in this closet a long time. A: Look, what I know is that episode three dropped last night. The night before. R: Okay. A: One of those nights very recently. R: Okay. With that in mind, regardless of when you hear it at this moment in time, subjectively speaking, I have walked up a flight of stairs, down a hallway, around a corner, across a room, and into a tiny little room to spend time with you and my friends on the internet here in a little place we call A: The closet? For Two Clowns in a Closet? R: It's true. It's true. I could have done better. You see! Two weeks and look what's happened to me. A couple of weeks and I'm bad at my job. Let me say up the stairs, around the corner, down the hall, behind the little door, and into the closet for another exciting episode of A: Two Clowns in a Closet. R: And we have arrived with a little judicious editing and me not saying "With a little judicious editing", we'll have a perfect opportunity to make this look professional. A: Nicely done. R: Thank you. Right. So as I understand it, we have some questions. A: We do have questions. We have questions. And some of them are questions that we have gotten from people after they have listened to the podcast. R: Oooh, That's exciting because I feel like now it's turning into a conversation instead of me babbling into my closet. That excites me greatly. A: Because up until this point, we've had questions from our initial inquiry in which we said, "We think we're going to do a podcast. Who's got questions?" R: So what you're saying is that we've moved from an interrogation and into a conversation. A: Yes. R: What a nice place to end up. I'm for it. Bring on the first question. I'm ready to go. A: All right. R: Are you ready to go? I'm jumping ahead like I'm in charge here and I'm sorry. It's a force of habit because I'm in charge here. *Both Laugh* R: I Tried, I tried. A: Nice. R: I tried. Do you see how I tried to take the reins? A: Yeah. You're just like, "I got this!" R: And then I didn't. Then I couldn't- You looked at me and it was over. A: It was. R: It was over. A: It was. R: Are you emotionally prepared to give a question from which I could receive a question? A: Yes. R: Okay. A: Are you emotionally prepared even after that laughing? To receive a question? R: I think the laughing helped. I think it opened my spirit up. I think absolutely I'm ready. A: Okay, then. R: Okay, then. A: Well, then we will begin. R: We will begin. A: Now. R: Now. A: "How do you think your performances affect people in the long term?" R: Oooh, well, first off, I hope not- I'm not thinking of this. I'm thinking of the greater sense of what we do. A: Yeah, yeah, yeah R: I mean, well I guess you- A: I assume so. I mean, take from it what you will but that was the question as it was written. R: Okay. Well, "how does it affect?" You know, it's funny. Up front, my instinct is like, I want people to think the work is good. I want it to be, oh, I want the idea to land. I want it to be funny. But then I think about all the times I've gotten feedback on things I've done. I've gotten people who've come to me and said, "hey, I saw this act" or "I watched this video" or "I was at your show" and they say something, and what they take from it is very rarely- I mean, yeah, it has something to do with what I did, hopefully, otherwise they were at the wrong show and they're confused- But it's their experience of it. So I think what's really exciting for me as a performer who does things that are emotionally and physically based is I want people to have their own experiences from them. I mean, there's definitely I want the applause and the immediacy, but in the long run, I have had stories where someone told me, "yeah, something really changed the way I think about something", but those are few and far between. I think, really, I want to know I affect people. I want to know that they're having an emotional journey of some sort. In recent history, though, I've developed a different opinion. That's been like my longstanding view. A: Okay. R: The more recent thing actually kind of came from this podcast. When we started doing this, we started getting a lot of very positive feedback, which I was blown away by and kind of took a day to think about. And one of the things that was a repeated theme is that we were either soothing or wholesome was jokingly said, because you've already sworn at least once. It's true. A: It's true. R: And I didn't. It's amazing. But also that we're not going to turn something ugly. We're not going to be talking about things that are going on in the greater world. We're not pretending they don't exist. We're simply choosing to put our focus somewhere else. A: Yes. R: And the positive feedback I got from that idea, which I'm always worried about, I'm always worried about, "Oh, you're not dealing with reality", "Oh, you're off over here playing instead of dealing with something serious" And I think, "Well, it's my job to do that. Yes." But also I care about those issues. I think it's really exciting to know that we're somehow, I don't know, providing a breath for people. You know, beyond entertainment, beyond longer term, how my vision is going to affect people. If what people take away from what we do is they got a chance to catch- to breathe, to exhale A: *Affirmative Noise* R: and relax for a minute so they could then get back to the very large things they have to deal with in their lives, then I think what I'm doing has some value because I've been able to help. One of my favorite phrases is "I'm happy to help". A: Yeah. R: And whenever I get to say that, I genuinely feel good. So I feel like beyond being entertaining or funny or deeply emotionally affecting people, just the fact that I help people exhale in a world that's making you go *inhale gasp* all the time is really reassuring and really meaningful to me. So I hope that's meaningful to others. A: Do you think that has an effect- because it's talking about in the long term- Do you think that has an effect in the long term? R: I have noticed that every time I exhale, I am capable of inhaling again. So on that one level, I'll say yes. I think continued exhalation and inhalation of air, generally speaking, has a positive effect on being a person. A: Yeah, that makes sense. R: Yeah, so, I'm going to leave it right there, I think. A: Okay. R: Yeah. How about you? I mean, this is a good question. I know obviously we always kind of start off with you're the new kid, but how do you think your performances affect people in the long term? A: I haven't had very many people come up and talk to me about how I've affected them. So I can't say that I know at all because I haven't really had that experience. But R: *Affirmative Noise* A: I hope that I give people the opportunity to see that not everyone is awful, that there can be good people, that there can be good in the world, that there can be something nice. I get the opportunity to fight a little bit of clown phobia. R: Oh, If can you make one less person be afraid of us that's great because most of that is performative. And what I love is when somebody goes, "I hate clowns, but I love you guys". I love that feeling. A: I mean, it's confusing. R: Of course it's confusing, but maybe it creates a model of normalizing, a behavior of actually dealing with the individual. A: Yeah. R: And I think that has some real value. A: So I hope, honestly, like I hope that I give people that experience and what I would love- I would love for that to be something that is a tiny blip in somebody's life full of finding out that people are wonderful because they're interacting with wonderful people most of the time and their lives are good. However, I'm fully aware that that is not everyone's experience to a fairly significant degree. And so I feel like if I get the opportunity to remind somebody that there are good people, that there are good experiences, that there is kindness and niceness in the world, and that gets them through a little bit, that that adds to a small little stack of those experiences in someone's life, even if they don't remember it. Like, I don't care whether they actually remember the moment or anything about the moment. I care that there's one more experience in that pile of positive experiences. R: I love the idea that you normalize, not this really saccharine idea of "positivity", but just normalize that things can be okay for a moment just by being there. I think that's really cool. A: Yeah. R: I've certainly seen you, in your work, I've seen you do that. I've seen you work with kids and work with adults and give them that moment of that. And also, frankly, you're a weirdo, and I'm a weirdo. A: This is true. R: And the idea that weirdo is good, and that could be a good thing. A: You could be strange. You can stand out and that can be good. R: Yeah. I think that is a thing that I would hope that us being around in baggy pants and dancing around like idiots encourages, it encourages that that's fine, too. And I love every time we normalize the weirdness A: Yeah. R: Because I think we need that. A: So that's what I would hope for. R: Yeah. A: That's what I hope for. I don't know whether I accomplished that. R: No one does, A: but I sure hope so. R: I've seen you do good work, but no one really knows. A: Yeah, I've seen you do good work. R: Well, Thank you. A: And, no one really knows. R: That's true. Well, I think we've answered time to move on a toughie, I think is coming, if you're ready. A: All right, let's do it. R: "Who is your favorite stage actor for theater?" Very specifically worded. A: Ooo, That is very specifically worded. For somebody who performs on stage. I have an appalling track record when it comes to actually watching anyone on stage or seeing any stage shows, which means I think I have to go and dig kind of back in time to pull something that really impacted me and someone who really impacted me. To the PBS videoed stage presentation of Into the Woods. R: Oh, yes. A: And I'd say the entire freaking cast. Obviously, particularly Bernadette Peters. And that's definitely the person who imprinted on me enough that I learned her name. I went and looked up other stuff of hers, and, you know, I've seen her in lots of other things since. But that entire cast. I watched that show as a child. We borrowed it on cassette tape, on video cassette tape from our local library all the time. R: I like that despite your background and experiences, that when asked this question, you went looking- because so many movies and things like that, but you went looking for something that was in the context of stage performance. A: Well, it does say for theater. R: I know. I'm just very excited to say that you actually found some. And Bernadette Peters is amazing. And yes, it's one of my favorite shows. I had friends of mine do a production here locally that brought me to actual tears. It was so good. It's such a strong show. And when it's well performed, it's beautiful. A: It is absolutely amazing. And for anyone who doesn't know, the PBS production had at least the majority of it was the original Broadway cast. I'm not 100% sure if it was entirely the original Broadway cast, but it was a video recording of a stage production. It was not a movie version. There has since been a movie version, which is a very interesting film, R: but not the same thing, really. And also not really germane to the question. A: Yeah, but getting to see a real stage production, when I- I mean, I saw some stage productions with plenty of things growing up, but seeing something that's on a big stage with Broadway performers, it's just, it's an amazing experience for somebody to get to have when they're growing up, when they live by comparison, to, say, New York, when they live in the middle of nowhere. R: Oh, I think there's something- A: It's a big thing. R: There's something to be said for any show that travels because it goes to somewhere where there might- A: *Affirmative Noise* R: Where there might otherwise be nothing but, sorry, a cornfield, nothing. A: Yes. R: And then they make something happen. I think that's magical. A: So that's probably what I would say. R: Well, I think you've answered well. A: "So who's your favorite stage actor for theater?" R: "Stage actor for theater" I love that this question always feels like a grenade because of a day I had when I was studying in London. We were all sat down in this round table conversation and we were given a little time to prep for it. A: Okay. R: But the question was, "what is the difference between a clown and an actor? Is there a difference between a clown and an actor?" And I have pages of notes which are not germane to this. I mean, they are a thing under themselves, but they are- A: Yeah, that's a hell of a question. R: And it usually lands with half the room screaming, "I'm an actor, go to hell, you clowns." And the other way around, "You're a liar, you actor. And we're clowns." It can get really heated, which is weird because they all do the same job, only they do it completely differently. So this question is always makes me light up. A: But by different levels depending on who you ask. R: Yeah. It's all just very opinionated stuff. And the room I was in was a spectacular room to be in. And I was really lucky to get to just sit there. And what I did was barely contribute and just take notes, trying to learn what this was, and then went back and looked up most of it. A: *laughs* R: Well, it's true! You know, when I go to think about this, because I think this is probably true of a lot of performers on our day off, we'll go see another show, when we can. But I don't like sitting in the audience. I don't like sitting in a chair. I don't like doing nothing and watching things. I want to be doing something. If I'm not doing something, I'm a little not right. So it's hard for me to focus in on that. I do love going to see indie theater. I admittedly love a big silly musical. A: Yeah. R: I'm a sucker for a big silly musical, sure. But I was thinking about this. I was like, who had an early impression on me because of course I could say "Well, Chaplin", but I've never seen Chaplin in a stage setting. It's always film, A: Yeah. R: Even though his background is vaudeville. I could say all of that. And I'm sitting here thinking about it, and I got something. A: Okay, R: So there was- around the time that Jim Carey was coming up, and I love Jim Carrey, and I love a lot of comedians. A: Yeah. R: There was this gentleman named Michael Courtemanche, and he was a physical comedian, a mime and a joke teller and made funny voices and sound effects. He was a human cartoon, and I loved his work. And I dialed in on it, and I watched it, and he could contort his face and make weird faces, and he would become characters to tell stories. And it really got in my skin, and it really got me thinking, "Oooh, is that a thing? Is that a job?" A: "You can do that?" R: "You can do that!" Because it was also very clearly clown style storytelling in that you had these physical stories going on. But there was also a conversation in play with the audience, and there was being in the world, this thing that clowns do where there's no fourth wall, A: *Affirmative Noise* R: And it was presented because there was no word for this, in the context of stand up comedy, which I am not a fan of as a form, but this was something- This was was, like, completely different. This was someone doing backflips on stage. I mean, it was crazy, but it was beautiful. This hit me so hard that I go back and I look at pieces I've put together, like the Wild West shootout. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: And then I look at his Western. I go, I'm a thief. I'm a terrible thief, and I'm not even good at it. I had to make it my own because I can't copy that level of skill. A: Always steal. R: Yes, A: It's fine R: Maybe. But still I'm a terrible person. A: *laughs* R: And then I look at I'm very expressive of face and make weird faces, and that's the thing I do. And now I'm very self conscious of the fact that I'm making faces in an audio setting, so it's really useless. A: I'm getting a great show, though. R: Thank you. I'm glad. But yeah, so I'll say Michel Courtemanche as a definite early theater. Yeah, I watched it on video. I watched it on a crappy VHS copy, but it was something I was like, "Oh, that's a thing". There are so many dramatic actors I love and so many comedic actors I love. And again, all of them. Sometimes I feel like it's above my pay grade for me to comment on a serious dramatic actor. I'm out of line. I'm out of my Lane. A: You are allowed to have opinions. R: I can have all kinds of pointless opinions. I just don't think there of any benefit. And what I will say is that the clown and this kind of goes back to what I started with. The clown and the actor are different in that I think a clown can be a really fantastic actor. And some of the greatest actors have that ability to emotionally connect. But an actor playing a clown is a kind of hard thing to watch. A: Oh, someone with like, zero clown- who is not a clown at all? R: Yeah. Just trying to pretend to be that A: yeah, that can be very difficult R: Because at that point, it becomes pretending instead of becoming. And I'm not saying that actors don't transform. It's this weird thing. So I have this weird relationship with that. And like I said, I don't sit still very well. So this is a thing for me. But yeah, I'll go with that one. And I think I'll say done. A: Okay. R: Before I get myself in further trouble by throwing. A: Yeah. I'm like, you volunteered shoes to put in your mouth. R: I did. A: That wasn't the question. R: But shoes. There they are. Meanwhile, there are actors everywhere. Listening is going, "Damn You!" A: Exactly. R: Some of them are friends. Hello. A: Hi! So, this next question is actually three questions. R: Hold on. Why do you look so happy? A: Because I'm very excited we got asked this question. This is one of the ones that has shown up since the point of the- R: Russ has enabled his most skeptical facial expression. I'm doing- my face. I'm doing like closed captioning for my face because I'm suspicious of what you've said. You've set something up, haven't you? A: No. R: Really? A: Kind of. No. So, R: Ask me the question. A: So I'm going to give the back story on this one because it's fun. When I mentioned that these cards are handwritten using a fountain pen, R: I believe you said pretentious fountain pen, if I remember correctly A: I believe I did. Yes. R: You did. A: When I did, apparently that caused at least one listener's ears to perk up. And they sent me the question, "Have you talked about pens yet?" R: I hereby retract anything I ever said about our lane and staying in it. A: And I chose not to just leave that question as the question we incorporated into this and said, "Do you have any more specific questions? Because no, we haven't" And they had more questions. R: So you're about to ask me this question. A: So I'm about to ask you this question. R: Oh, this is great. This is great. A: So they would like to know "What kind of pens do you like to use? What kind of inks? Also, why do you like those pens and inks?" R: *laughs* So for context, there are two facts that must be known. First off, my grandmother wished I would grow up to be a doctor. And the only part of that I made good on is my terrible handwriting. And two, my barely eligible handwriting comes out of the left paw of this orangutan, and I can barely use a pen in an effective way. So this is really upsetting because I don't get to play fancy pen games. I just get to make holes in paper, get angry, and grab whatever's laying around. Now, that said, if I want to give a real answer, A: Which I think you should. R: I'm trying to. I'm getting past my initial outrage. A: Okay R: Thank you. A: Good. R: It's not real outrage. It's just you're, like, Loading nerd stuff in here. I know where this leads. You know, I use a lot of ballpoint pens, a lot of, like, gel pens with small tips because my handwriting is so bad and so small that I'm trying not to move my hand so I don't drag it through the ink. So I like, write really small. And so I picked up this habit. And when I was working on a show that was based in an office, I thought it would be fun- because I had to map out the show. The way the show was written is it happened hour by hour in an office. A: Okay. R: It was called an office life circus story. That was the subtitle of the show. The show was called Almost Five. It's not really important, but I was putting post-it notes and writing the beats of the show, the individual theatrical elements of the show, and putting them up so I could rearrange them quickly. And I thought it was fun to use office supplies. Like- A: Oh, totally R: A maniac. So I'm covering this wall and of course soon had string and it looked pretty much like one of those conspiracy theory maps only you know, "Clown does this" in the middle. That show went through many rewrites. Midway through that show, a very dear friend of mine and I were talking and they were cleaning out an office and they said, "Do you need a really big dry erase board?" And I said, "Yes." I looked over any wall that was literally covered in 6ft of post it notes. A: *laughs* R: That was, you know, waist to ceiling. "Yes, I clearly do". And we conspired to bring over this six foot long dry erase board and mounted on my wall, and I rewrote the show on it. And ever since then, it's been on the wall. And probably at some point, every half baked insane idea, including one of my biggest, like half brained ideas, has gone- you know, like the career changers A: *Affirmative Noise* R: Have gone on this board. A: Yes. R: So the shortest answer I can give you is that the pen I apparently go to most is one of those little fine tip dry-erase markers where I stand there at the middle of the night, gibbering to myself like a maniac while drawing little symbols and notes which will lead to stupidity that happens either in a workshop setting or on stage, and then those get either documented, typed up, photographed, something. But yeah, so much of my work starts that way that I now think about it while I still go for a pen to quickly scroll something down and I want a quick, easy to use ballpoint that doesn't make me angry for that. I think the dry erase marker is, unfortunately, my terrible, foolish contribution to what is probably about to become a really long rant on state of the art pen technology. And I'm bringing this, so that's what I've got. A: I like what you've got. R: That's all I got. So I'm so glad you like it. A: I also spend a fair amount of time with those dry erase pens because I have taken over half of the dry erase board to write our workouts on. R: That's true. And the other half is full of incomprehensible nonsense, A: Some of which I've also added to. So- R: That's true. That's true. Congratulations on learning to use a lesser pen. A: *laughs* R: That said, the questions goes to you. Unless you want to delve into my pen usage more, I don't think I have much more to add. A: No, I'm waiting for you to ask the question. R: You're actually sweating a little. A: I'm not. R: You're so excited. If your pupils were anymore dilated, I'd be questioning what we had before we went in here. The answer was lentils. Sorry about that. By the way. Episode one or two, I talk about the beauty of fart jokes. It's about now that it might come up. "What kind of pens do you like to use? What kind of inks? Also, why do you like those pens and inks?" Okay, go slow. A: So I'm going to give the extraordinarily brief answer. Then I'm going to give the expanded answer. And if this is not your topic, feel free to jump ahead. We do have show notes. R: Hold on, hold on. Before you dive in. Yes, don't say to people, don't apologize for the fact that you're passionate about something. I'm teasing you a little bit, but don't say, "Go away and come back later". A: I'm not apologizing. R: Somebody's life might be changed. A: Somebody's life might be changed. I am very happy that everyone's here and gets to listen to this. It's also nice to remember that we've said at what time topics change. R: I'm appalled. I'm appalled. I'm not, I'm just trying to- A: You are allowed to be anything you want to be. You can be appalled. R: I'm an attentive listener. Talk about pens. A: Okay, I'm going to talk about pens. R: Get started. Don't let me get in your way. I know you're passionate about this. It's a big topic. I'm not stalling because I've heard it before or I don't want to hear it again. None of those reasons. I want to make sure the stage is set, the lighting is good. The moment is here. A: You have oversold the situation because I use an incredibly cheap metal pen and a random grab bag of ink. I use a Jinhao X750. R: Wow. A: Which I actually really like quite a bit. The version of it that I have has, like a black covering that's got little sparkles inside of it, so it just looks like a whole bunch of rainbows, which I really enjoy. R: That's good. A: And I prefer to write in purple ink, so I have a purple ink. R: These cards are in a lovely shade of purple. A: These cards are a lovely shade of purple. Not all of my ink is the same shade of purple, but I actually can't control that R: Because of the grab bag. A: Because of the grab bag, I will explain the grab bag. This is where we get into the longer form answer because that was the quick and dirty answer on what I use. R: Before I dive in. I am not attempting to undermine the story. I'm actually curious. I love lingo. It's something that I find really entertaining. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: Do like pen people have lingo for, like, their pen? Do they call it, like, their stick? I don't know. A: I'm not sure, to be honest. You have the pen and then you have the nib, R: *Affirmative Noise* A: which is the pointy part. R: Don't stab your paper with that part. Got it. A: And then you have whichever way that you've loaded it with ink. There are multiple different ways you could do that, but there isn't a ton of, like, lingo-y lingo. R: What a missed opportunity A: There's some. R: What a missed opportunity because you could be, like "This is a good stick." A: You could, R: but nobody would know what you're talking about. So you're going to explain your ink, though, because I've derailed you and I apologize. A: It's all right. Growing up, I was never exposed to using a fountain pen for anything other than calligraphy. I did learn how to use a calligraphy pen at one point and took a whole class on calligraphy. But I hadn't ever been exposed to the idea of using a fountain pen in a day to day setting because it's not really done. Like, that's not part of the school supplies you'll pick up R: Here? A: Here. R: No, you'll be given a ballpoint pen. A: You'll be given a ballpoint pen. And more likely, I definitely preferred pencils. I preferred mechanical pencils. Growing up, R: I do like a good mechanical pencil. A: I still prefer to do math with a mechanical pencil. But when I went to Germany when I was in college, I discovered that in Germany, they start kids using fountain pens really early. R: Hmn A: And they produce and sell- They're not, like, ridiculously cheap. They're definitely not cheap on the level of- R: They're not disposable A: disposable ballpoint pens, but they're definitely within the range of, oh, you're going to pick up this one that might match that folder- the one fancy folder that you get your kid, along with the seven folders that are just plain colors. The one really great one, when I was growing up was Lisa Frank. You know, you have the one fancy one and then all the awful ones, it's definitely within that price range of. "Okay, yeah, you can have one for the year. Have fun with it. We'll pick it up and it's fine". They're cheap plastic handles, metal nibs, but cheap plastic handles. And you just pick up a box of ink because it's got a bunch of ink cartridges. You just shove them in there and close it up, and you're to go, R: It sounds great. A: Like, they have fountain pens for kids to learn to write with. They start them that early. R: Okay. A: So I found these, and there's a whole bunch that are, like, aimed at high schoolers, which just have fun patterns and colors on them. And I went, "Why on Earth would I not try this?" So I immediately purchased one and then later came back and purchased another one. And the ones that I had had, like, multiple heads. So I had different size nibs that I could try. Some pens actually make it so you can swap out the nib. This just had a completely separate head that you could screw in at that point where it hits the rest of the body. R: Okay. A: Because you unscrew them in order to put more ink in, and you re-screw them together. So I had this while I was in Germany. I wrote with it for everything I did while I was in Germany. The fact that I found that I could have purple ink meant that that was what I was taking notes in. That's what I was turning in homework assignments with. I was like, this is awesome, and I love it. Then I came back to the States, and I ran out of ink. So I'm back home. It's summer. I know I'm getting ready to go back for another year of college, and I know that I really love this pen, and I really want to keep using it. So I go to my local office supply store. I go to their pen section. There is, like, one fountain pen, maybe two fountain pens in that aisle. And they use a proprietary cartridge. R: Oh, no. A: And I look at the cartridge that's being sold to go with this pen, and it very clearly is not going to fit in my pen. Like, there's no question these are completely different shapes. So I look at it for a second, and I'm like, "Well, that's not going to fit in my pen." I then come to the brilliant and yet factually inaccurate. I will own that right now. Factually inaccurate. But the brilliant deduction that clearly America does not use European standards for fountain pen ink cartridges, because from what I'm seeing, they're not available. R: What you need is a metric ink cartridge. And we're- A: Pretty much that was the conclusion I came to. R: I see how you made the mistake. A: And so I got on ebay, and I found- I'm like, searching for German ink cartridges, like, very specifically. 'cause I know that's where I could get them and somebody- purple because I want purple ink, because otherwise, what's the point? I find somebody who is selling from Poland this grab bag of purple, black and blue ink. And I had on multiple occasions over the course of studying in Germany, switched out for a blue for a little while and then gone back to the purple. Because sometimes, you know, you have to do official things and people don't love it when you use purple ink on official things. R: I love it, A: but the government does not typically like it, R: I'm not really qualified to speak on that. A: So I'm like, that's. Perfect. So I get this grab bag of ink cartridges sent to me from Poland and I head off to college for another year of college. And at this point in my life, I was not very good at keeping track of items that belonged to me. And I very swiftly lost both of my pens. R: *laughs* A: Still had this small mountain of ink cartridges, but no pen. Still have two spare nibs from one of the pens, R: No pen. A: -but no pen body to put them on. And since I had such a poor experience trying to find a pen. And I was so convinced that the only thing that was available had these weird American systems, I didn't even try to get another one for quite some time. I just kind of let this little bag of ink exist in my life. A few years later, I did decide to get another pen. I did not do very good research. I just went, you know what? I know the company that makes these pens. I'm going to go find it. They're in Germany. They are not particularly an international company, and I ordered a pen from them. I paid an arm and a leg to ship it here. And when it got here, it had a nib that was too wide for me to use for my day to day stuff. And I had thought I had bought one that was compatible with the two other heads that I had. It was not. R: And that's how you became a pen collector. A: So that is why I own a couple of pens. I gave up again for a while on using a fountain pen. But while I was not using a fountain pen, I did start bullet journaling and eventually hit the point where I- So I started bullet journaling. And I started getting very into the idea of using less disposable plastics if I can, when I can. And so the idea of getting a metal pen that I could finish out the cartridges I have in and then could switch over to purchasing R: bottles of ink. A: -bottles of ink seemed like a good idea to me. R: I know so little about pens that it took me till now to realize that, oh yeah, bottles of ink. I have a mental image of that. And as a living cartoon, all I think about is fountain pens is spraying ink in people's faces. A: Yes, exactly. R: Oh no, that's my future, isn't it? A: No, I'm not going to spray ink in your face. Probably. R: You just said that, I have auditory confirmation of that promise, and it's little gross, A: "Probably" grumble at the end of it, R: -the dismissal at the bottom. A: So I started getting really into that idea. Finally decided that I could probably actually use ink in my bullet journal instead of pencil. R: And you do. A: And I got the pen I'm currently using. I got a second pen, which is also a Jinhao pen, because it was too cute, it was too inexpensive, and I could not resist. They make a little plastic pen that looks like a shark. R: I have used it to sign a legal document that is the best feeling in the world. A: I got one in blue because I wanted to be able to, whenever I had to sign a legal document, use a blue pen, but one that was so ridiculous that it would make me feel better about the situation. R: You loaned it to me. I used it. It made me a little happier. A: So I have that. And I have the pen I use day to day. I don't expect to continue collecting. R: You wouldn't turn down a pen if it materialized underneath you, though. A: I would probably try it. R: That's what I'm saying. You haven't found your final game changing pen. A: The thing is, I would probably try it. And if it was not significantly better for me and pens are very individual. If it was not significantly better for me, I probably would send it on to another home. R: Okay. A: Because I don't feel the need to build a collection. R: I am never going to surprise you with a pen. That's it. I'm sorry. A: That's okay. I don't need one of the things that I got into the idea of this- that I got into it most recently for is I love the idea of- one of the phrases is "cradle to grave". One is "cradle to cradle" in tools, which is a tool that could be gifted to a child and serve them for their entire life and potentially be then given to another generation. I love the idea. R: It's a Noble pursuit if we can manage it. And I have to admit, from both working as a clown, where I have some props and some costume pieces which belong to other clowns who have since retired, A: *Affirmative Noise* R: and also as a sculptor, where I've had tools that were old. It's a beautiful feeling to hold something that is well made and does your job the way you want to. There's a lot of junk in the world. It's beautiful when you're not doing that. A: Yeah. R: So yeah, I see it. A: So, I didn't spend a lot of money finding a tool, but I did find a tool that I think will last. R: We'll find out. A: We'll see how that goes. I'm still very early in doing it. I have not yet gone through my grab bag of ink. R: Many years later, you're still working your way through it. A: Has it been a full year since I got this? Wow, time flies. R: You remember time, don't you? A: Vaguely. R: You remember. A: But I am heading towards the end of what I have by way of purple. So I am looking forward to experimenting. There are some companies that will send you little test vials of ink instead of having to purchase a full bottle. And I'm very much looking forward to starting investigating that. R: So sending samples to you now is what you're saying. A: I intend to order some samples, yes. And actually at least one person, when I made some interest sounds, has already apparently R: again, the very big grin, Big happy face. A: -Sent me some vials. I am looking forward to those arriving. R: Okay. I think you've answered the pen question. I've learned at least one or two things in the course of this conversation that I didn't know. A: Yeah, I think that's my answer. R: Good. It's my turn to read to you. A: You're right, it is. R: It is. Oh, you got so you're like did your brain get tired? A: I got confused! R: Your brain got tired. You poor thing. A: It's fine R: It's okay. A: Are you kidding me? I was literally staring at my pen, trying to remember what it was called right before coming in here. R: Does it have a name? Not a brand, like a name, A: No, but like the individual one does R: You spend that much time with it. A: the individual one does. R: Like, it's Stanley or Clarice or something? It's got a name. A: No, I have not given it a name yet. R: Well, now you got something you got to think about. You spend that much time with something, it should have a name. A: You know, I would give it a name, but every time that I actually look at it, I get so distracted by the sparkles that I can't- like I have to either be using it as a tool and not thinking about it, or if I really think about it and look at it, it's so sparkly. I get super distracted. R: I feel your pain. I do. A: *laughs* R: I'm going to read this question now. A: Do, do. R: You have to understand when I start, we're done talking about pens. A: Yeah. R: I'm supportive. You're good? A: Yeah. I'm good R: Okay. We nerded out about pens. A: It's good. R: We nerd it out about pens. It was fun. A: We did. R: I just want to make sure. Okay, we're back now. Right here. A: Yes. R: "What clown wisdom" that's hashtag-ed, by the way, "has been passed on to you by other clowns you've known be a three ring, vaudeville, or sacred variety?" A: Oh, that's a good question! R: Three ring, vaudeville, or sacred varieties of clowns offering you wisdom. What was it? A: I'm so happy someone knows that all three of those exist. R: I know. A: Alright, what #Clown, #Wisdom have I gotten? R: Give us the good stuff. A: Let's see. The very first thing that jumps to mind as a little quote, little tidbit of wisdom. R: The nugget. A: The nugget, if you will. I'm kind of grumpy as to what the first one that pops into my head is. R: Why is that good advice? If it's grumpy? A: No, I'm grumpy about it and I'll tell you exactly why. Because you are going to make me swear again. R: You're going to quote me on a podcast about a question about wisdom. A: Yes. R: Oh, first of all, I'm touched. Second of all, I'm really excited because that's twice you're going to swear and it's my fault this time. So I've sort of pushed you into it. And I'm still thus far A: not the one who sworn R: the undriven snow. A: So the quote, the good piece of wisdom that I got from you when we went on a teaching tour, R: The idiot road trip. A: The idiot road trip. So we went to teaching tour. I was actually assistant teaching, but the nugget of that entire workshop. So I was taking this workshop over and over and over again as we traveled across the country. R: I watched you fall apart because that's a hard- I know the workshop. It's my workshop. It's a toughie A: It is a toughie R: to do over and over and over. A: And one of the nuggets from that one, One of the takeaways from that one is "Slow the Fuck Down" R: It sounds majestic when you say it. A: I'm glad. R: Do you want to say it again? A: "Slow the fuck down", which is a great piece of clown wisdom, specifically. One, yes, that one arguably can be turned to be a little bit of life advice. Taking time is good for you, but for clown in particular, it is so easy to get going too fast. You get on stage, you get nervous, you go too fast. You know everything about what you're supposed to be doing. So you round off all the corners and you just try to move through it as quickly as you can so you don't fuck it up, which of course inevitably makes you fuck it up. Shit! R: *laughs* The door is opened. Now everyone knows that you're a children's entertainer and a filthy little Goblin. A: *goblin laugh* Yes, R: It's so good. A: This is how we talk about the work while we're doing it. R: Oh, I never would say anything like- I'm the one who taught you that. A: You're definitely the one who taught me that. It was your fault. R: I ruined you. A: Well yeah, you get moving too fast, you are going to mess things up. And so it's very important to breathe, calm down, be in the moment, and just move through things slowly and deliberately. It's so easy to get ahead of what the audience can follow. If you're moving slowly, they can actually follow along with what you're doing. They can even get ahead of what they expect you to do, which is wonderful fun, because they either get to feel very smart when they're right or get to be very excited about the fact that you've surprised them. So it's a win-win all around. So that one's a tidbit that I got from you. R: Thank you. A: In other clown wisdom that's really stuck with me. One of the first- one of the other first things that really, really comes to mind. I don't- It's another thing about timing, and I don't have a cute little saying for this one. I just have- A lot of clown wisdom is not taught in cute little saying. Sometimes it really is. It's just filled down to something simple you can repeat to yourself. R: Sure. A: But a lot of things. You'll walk away from a workshop and you'll have, "oh, this was a great exercise. We did this one little thing, and I learned so much from it". And one of the workshops I was in, one of the instructors was Barbara Karger, who was in Mummenschanz. So was teaching us R: See the hair on my arm go up a little bit when you said it? A: Yeah. R: It's very impressive. A: So it was teaching us physical theater and mime technique to a certain degree. I won't explain all the details of it here, but there was an exercise that we did that was talking about pacing of your movement, and we did the same set of movements multiple times. But first we did it really slow, and then we did it really fast. Then we did it somewhere in the middle, but consistently. And then we did one where each part of the movement, of the set of movements, each individual movement in the set, we did those at certain speeds, at certain rates, and they set these up so that we watched everybody else in the class and do it. So we all, like, went off and practiced them and then came back and we got to watch as several different people did literally the same physicality the same physical movements with nothing more brought to it. We weren't supposed to think about what the movements expressed. We weren't supposed to be necessarily giving it any emotional qualities or thinking about it in a different way. R: So just like, Mask neutral. A: Mask neutral, R: Got you A: -is the way that was done. But we're doing it with particular pacing and watching as an audience member, as each story, because we can't help- human beings cannot help it. We watch something happening. We want to know the story. And if there's not a way for us to find out the story, we will make it up. If you look out the window and you watch somebody do something, you will make up the story of what's happening with their day. That's just what humans do. And so the stories that were being told on stage when everyone was doing these exact same answers, the exact same movements, the stories were completely different because the pacings were changed. Somebody took longer doing this particular thing, and it made it feel very intense, and somebody went very short on some other thing, and it made it feel dismissive. It just- so much got embedded, and one so much got embedded, and everyone had the same feeling as to what the story was. R: And I can confirm that because you brought that exercise to my clown lab and taught it to the lab, and I was blown away because I didn't believe you when you described it. But just the tiniest little change and what a massive effect it had on the room. A: It makes a huge effect R: You converted me on that one. A: So I walked away from this one with a lot more determination to make sure that I got very precise in what I was doing and remembering that the pacing really matters. You really do need to control it and know what you're doing with it, because it will make an impact. It will make a change. R: And then when you add stuff on top of that, then it just really grows. A: Yeah. And a bizarre side effect is; So you're supposed to be there, not thinking anything more than, like, focusing on how long the action is supposed to take. R: I'm just counting numbers in my head. I remember. A: Yeah. You're just supposed to be focusing on how long the action is supposed to be taking and do the actions. You can't help it, you feel the emotional journey while you're doing it. There's no story. There's no actual emotional journey. Nothing was written. You feel one while doing the actions. R: That's very cool. A: If you try different combinations of how fast and slow you do the things, you will feel different ones, and they're likely to line up with what the audience is seeing as well. Which was just fascinating. R: Yeah. I couldn't tell you how it works. I can tell you that it does. I have my theories, but nothing solid. Any other wisdom come popping to mind? A: I mean, there's been tons. I mean, I've quoted several bits- R: We've been- A: over the course of this already. Nothing else- R: Those are great. A: -is immediately jumping. R: I mean, at least for one of those teachers, is fantastic. So I think you did great. I'm not talking about me. A: You're talking about Barbara. R: I'm talking about Barbara. A: So thank you, Barbara. R: Yeah A: That was wonderful. R: Thank you. Sorry We stole your trick. We stole your workshop, and we use it now a lot. A: Well yeah. Because it's amazing. R: It's so good A: And we can't not do it. R: Okay, okay. A: So I will turn the question to you. "What- R: Okay. If you're ready. A: I am. Are you ready? R: I am, but I want to say something on all the pithy quotes before we go. A: Yes. R: Because the reason why- and I know that I have peppered this, as I often do, with quotes from people smarter than me. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: When I was studying, there were three of us. There was me and Ash and Georgie. And we were like the misfits of a clown class. To give you an idea of who we were A: *laughs* R: Like, that's all you need to know. And Georgie one day said, we're all talking. And he said, out of nowhere, pulled himself up and said, "Lessons learned with the heart are seldom forgotten". And we were all like, "oh, that's so deep". "I know. And I stole it from-". And I don't remember who he stole it from. So for me, it's always from Georgie. So I have to assume that the lineage of ideas is carried this way. But also the reason why it's the little quotable nugget is it's easy to hold on to. And I think as long as you're capable of periodically unpacking the ideas. As long as you're capable of periodically going through and remembering that it's more than just a quote, which clearly, you know, you do with other things. A: *Affirmative Noise* Yup. R: As long as you're capable of doing that, it's a great way to kind of keep a handle on this bigger concept that's so big you can't really hold it all at once, but you could hold this and keep a grip on it. So that- A: It's so interesting to have clowns and physical performers trying to do podcasts. R: Yeah. My hands in the air, and I'm holding onto a big imaginary thing A: You're holding on to an imaginary suitcase. R: Yeah. A: And it's very clear and it's very funny because I know that they will never see it. R: Yeah. Okay. A: So. R: So, My bad physical theater skills aside, the question, please. A: Oh, they're good physical theater skills. They're just- R: Useless for the genre. A: Not for this genre. "So what #clown #wisdom has been passed on to you by other clowns you've known be a three ring, vaudeville, or sacred variety?" R: Well, I've done what I think was a pretty good job, as we've been going, like I said, of sharing some of the sort of like the broad quotes. And- A: Yeah R: -I was thinking about it a little bit while we were talking, and I was thinking there have been some that really aren't universal. I mean, some of these are universal ideas, slowing down- A: *Affirmative Noise* R: -and breathing, and these are great universal ideas, but there are some that were really- they were notes for me, and they don't ever really get credit because once you integrate that, you don't tell people about how you were awful in that way beforehand. And I feel the bus pulling up as I go to tell the story. So I wanted to start with one of those, and I was digging around and there's this. I got to learn how to throw pies and do water spitting and all of these things with a tremendous performer by the name of Jay Stewart. Jay Stewart is also just a fantastic human being. And I learned so much from and I've bumped back into as I've come up, and I was so excited to see Jay, and I thought a reverent moment. And instead he comes walking up and goes, "I've been hearing about all the things you're doing. You're so great." And I was just, "Wow, how can you be this great?" And it's because he's just a really great, wonderful performer and a very giving teacher. And he was teaching. And the thing he's very known for is this big, broad physical comedy. Like if you think about the Three Stooges, the sort of the Moe character, the one that is the one that's going to hit everyone really hard in a gag, A: *Affirmative Noise* R: And he's the first to tell you, if you don't build trust with everybody, you don't get to be that person. And if you get to be that person, you don't want to screw it up. A: Yeah. R: He was a precision- He was, dare I say, surgical with his precision. And so he has this thing, and he takes us outside. We're all going to throw pies at each other, and we're all very excited because we're going to throw pies at each other. A: Yeah. Who's not going to be excited about that? R: Right. And I still hadn't really evolved into thinking about the ramifications of slapstick. So I'm just very excited that pies are going to be flying through there, and it's going to be gross. And so I'm there, and I'm very excited. And they put me in the middle. And the way this gag works, three people, and the first person throws the pie. The middle person ducks, hits the other person. The idea is that the middle person pops up, brains the first person, and then both of them get revenge on the middle person. So you basically take a pie on either side of the face. A: Okay, yeah. R: So it's like one, two, *claps* wammo. And so I got a little overheated, and I ducked down when it was my queue, and I popped up, and I blasted someone with this pie so hard that they staggered back a step. And I felt bad, but I didn't really think about it at the time. A: Mmmmn, yeah. R: We were just rough housing in my mind. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: What I didn't know is that this person was really taken aback by it, and, you know, they needed to go work with other people for a little while. Like, it was a big deal. And I had screwed up. A: Yeah R: And the next day- Jay, at some point later in the process, had said, "Hey, let's juggle after lunch" because he knew I was a juggler. And I was like, "Yeah, that'd be great. Sure. Juggling with someone's fun". And I come in, and I'm all excited. I'm not really thinking the next day, I'm not really thinking about any of this because no one ever told me there was a problem, but I could *questioning noise* something was off. And he says, "Come here". I said "Oh, we're going to juggle?" He says, "Come here". He says, "Look, don't let your adrenaline take you ahead of your technique". Bam. And then he explained what the problem was. And he made me understand why it mattered. And he was so gentle with me at a time where, honestly, I was working through a lot of aggression, and it taught me to slow down and process that stuff out. So it didn't end up in the work unconsciously. And I didn't get so excited that I went beyond what I was capable of. My technique. A: Yeah. R: Which when I moved into more dangerous things, like juggling knives or acrobatics or working with a partner's feelings, really mattered. So at the time, it was always this thing where I was like, "Well, now I feel kind of repressed". But afterwards it has become this mantra to me, and it really gave me something I needed. A: Yeah R: And so I've always been very grateful for that first lesson. So that was an early lesson about that from Jay. And I've always been very grateful. A lighter lesson. A wonderful lesson of also just having my butt handed to me. We went and we got to go take a workshop with John Gilkey. John Gilkey is a physical character actor, theater person, actor, clown. I mean, again, it's this place. An improviser, tremendous improviser and teacher of improv. And I went and halfway through the warm-ups, I realized I was so thoroughly outclassed. I was so, just "This is, like, beyond where I'm at right now" that I sat down and just tried to absorb as much of it as I could. And I felt defeated because people were working at a level I had never seen. And never mind the fact they've been working with this great teacher for so long, I just walked in there, like, "workshop, let's do it". And I wasn't up to the challenge. And at the end, I sort of sheepishly went "Well, go meet the legend". And I walked up and I said, thank you for the time. And I did learn a lot. I mean, there's a lot to be learned just being in the room. And I said and I kind of barfed out the words. I was like, "What do I need to get to the point where I could with everybody is so?" So and he just said, "You don't need anything. You just need to keep playing". I'm sitting there feeling completely dusted, and I'm just told, you don't need anything. You got it. Just keep playing. Which is so true when you realize that this work is iterative. And it takes years to build in any skill. It's not even just this. It's in any skill to build the confidence level and the comfort and just experience and the neural network of ideas and all these quotes have to integrate and get deep down inside you. There's so much to absorb. There's so much to learn. So yeah, Just keep playing. And so many of these lessons you said exercises. But the truth is, most of these lessons are taught to us in game form. A: Yes. R: They're little games we play in the lab till we get good enough to play them on stage in front of people. And I've taken actual exercises from the lab and put them directly on stage because I knew how good they were, A: *Affirmative Noise* R: Because games are fun to play and you just keep playing and eventually things start clicking. So that was great advice just before- And that was the moment before I went, "Wow, I really need to take this seriously". So to be told what you need to take seriously is playing hard. Playing for real. Really, really, doing the work was good for me. I got one more. I've been thinking about this a lot. A: Hit me. R: Hit you. A: But carefully. R: I'm not going to hit you. I've learned not to let my adrenaline take me past my technique and to keep playing. And I don't want to knock you unconscious because there's nothing fun about that. A: True, R: True. When I was studying with de Castro, which is who I ended up studying within London. Angela de Castro is legend, the father of my clown. The person who, when I showed up, finally broken open by other teachers, put all the pieces reached inside and put all the pieces back together in a way that could be useful, as opposed to just kind of messed up. I'm reverent of this person who is also a huge pain in the rear. And her thing was to come up behind you and whisper in your ear. She'd sneak up behind her right ear, and she would very excitedly say something very into your ear. And eventually it gets in your head and it lives with you forever. And the voice was always, "Oh, yes, it's going very well. Oh, yes, okay. It's going really good!" And the thing that when you get to excitement and the adrenaline comes and everything comes is you want to do it all. You want to try everything. And the phrase was "One thing at a time, one thing at a time". It's so simple because you're like, "What? That's not deep". But the more you unpack that you have 5 million impulses and you want to act on them all at once your body goes tight and you just need to relax. And the first thing you do is breathe. And the second thing, you look around and then you think, and that's very uncomfortable. But as you work, you begin to explore and go, "Oh, if I just do one thing at a time, maybe I'm a little slow and that's funny. Or maybe I get to the one thing that's important to me and people learn something about me or I learned something about myself. Maybe that's good, or maybe it's just I'm gentle and that's very good". So one thing at a time. And that idea of slowing down, you can hear the leading up to my orangutan version that you quoted earlier. They're all the same note A: Yes. R: All the way through. Adjust your tempo to a more steady and precise level to wherein you may process an individual component of theatrical knowledge in any given moment. Yeah. Or slow the- *sigh* Slow the f*ck down. A: Yay! R: That was for you. A: Thank you. R: You're welcome. A: I'm not alone! R: You're not alone in the closet. You never will be. So, yeah. That's the knowledge. And it's all very simple. That one, "one thing at a time". "One thing at a time". I have taken with me. I've translated into Toki Pona A: Yes. R: "io wan lon tempo wan", "One thing at one time". And that's the one I very regularly say to people and teach to people because I think it's real useful. A: Yup. R: It's good wisdom from the mountain, as they say. A: Next question? R: There's more? A: There's another question. R: I've already embarrassed myself, talked about my failings, and sworn. A: There's one more question. R: Okay, bring it. A: All right. R: What'chu got? A: "When times are tough, what reminds you that life is good?" R: I have to confess that I know where this came from because we received a postcard. A: We did R: And the postcard had this question followed by a list of what this person regarded as sort of their happy things. And I thought that was so nice and it made me think about- we play an improv game all the time as little warm up called "Three Things" and you'd be like "Three kinds of sandwich" A: BLT, hamburger and taco. R: Three things! And we all cheer. "Three things." You were a little late on the cheering, but- A: I was because I was annoyed with myself because I don't know if I think a taco is a sandwich. Moving on. R: That's for another podcast. That's for someone wiser than us. But what I do know is that that game evolved when we entered our incarcerated era. You like that? A: Oooh. R: During these stuck at home times, Both: "Stuck at home!" R: I came up with this thing, I was like "tell me good things" and we would go around and we would talk and we were doing video classes and we would say, "Tell us- A: Three good things R: Three good things". And we'd all do a list of three good things. So it became a real common ritual whenever we got low was "tell me good things". And so I'm always kind of primed for it because I know anyone around me might also need to hear it. So I'm always trying to find it. And what I've learned is they're always very small. You're never going to get gigantic things are good news because if anyone's lived in the real world, they know that's not how it works. But you can learn to really enjoy these little- A: Some days it is. R: It can be A: Not always. R: These little pleasures. So for me, the little things that make life good, I have a tremendous amount of love and care in my life, be it from family of choice or from friends. I'm very lucky because I didn't always have that. And so I have a moment where I get to feel safe. And that comes- And that's the thing not everyone gets to feel. And I went through a long time where I never got to feel that. So that one is one I value, and that's something, I guess that is something big. So I'm already standing corrected. A good cup of coffee. It started long ago. It was like before I would teach a class or do a show. We would all get a coffee together. Then we'd go do the work. We'd sit. We go do a shot of espresso and go do the work. So it became kind of a ritual. But I do love to sit with a cup of coffee and just think. I'm grateful there's good food in the house. I'm grateful that I have a lot of creative irons in the fire that keep me just busy enough to where I'm okay most of the time. I get sad, but there's always something to reach for and play with. I just have to pick myself up. I'm grateful that the last show I did before we went into this time was very good. A: Yes. R: I'm grateful that we decided to really use this time to push our skills and our technology of what we do a little further. A: *Affirmative Noise* A: I'm very grateful that we made that choice and we made that commitment and we've stuck to it and there have been results. Again, that's big. Maybe there are big things. I'm glad that I found out that while the word impossible is heavy, it's not immobile. It's really heavy. You got to pick it up and muscle it out of your way sometimes, but it's not true. I'm glad I have a diverse group of friends that is passionate about everything from pens to computers to art to sculpture. It's like a brain trust full of people sharing ideas with me all the time. And I love that. I love that I feel like the slow kid in the room, the dumb kid in the room, because then I get to take it all in and maybe I'll learn something. I'm always trying. I want to learn. I want to be a student. I want to learn. So I love that. That I'm still learning. And I love that people have taken the silly things- and this goes back to the postcard and finishes me off. The postcard had the jan nasa pona glyph hand drawn on it. The little glyph that we came up with that is sort of like our way of saying clown and kind of speaks to how we believe it should be or could be, and that someone took that and drew that themselves. The idea not that I own something, "It's my logo". It's not for that. It's the idea that we put something creative out there and people played with it just the way we've been saying, "Keep playing. All you need to do is keep playing". People played with it. And I'm so grateful that people want to play the games we've offered because they are meaningful to us and they're useful and they're good, and it makes you feel like you're not alone in all of it. So I'm really grateful for that. And these are small but big things. I'm grateful that people are still checking in and messaging with us and say they want to talk to us, whether it's here on the podcast or if they want to see us somewhere someday soon. So do we. So all of those things. A: Yeah R: They're a lot keeping me going right now, because I don't think I'd be going otherwise. I have a fantastic company here in the closet and beyond. A: *laughs* R: How about you? What are your good things? I've been running my mouth. A: This is not just good things. This is specifically "What reminds you that life is good". R: Oh, that's true. Well, do I have to redo all of mine? I thought I- A: No, no, no R: I thought I did okay. A: You did good. R: Okay A: I'm just clarifying. R: I want to get these right. These are important to me. Somebody spent the time to send us a postcard. I want to get it right. A: Yeah. R: Thank you. A: Well, I mean, one of the things that reminds me that life is good in a very literal sense is you. When I'm down, you will actually come over and R: Annoy you till you get up, A: Annoy me until I get up. R: It's brutal A: The practice that we have of saying good things and we will poke at each other and say when we need to hear some and we can't come up with them ourselves, we'll ask the other person to come up with some, and that generally gets us to the place so then we can come up with some ourselves. So the fact that I have people around me that are willing to do that with me and can do that with me and help me feel better when things feel rough is really big. There is an exceptional amount of extraordinarily good food in this house. I eat well and I appreciate it. When I check in with my physical form, with my body, as of late, I am either incredibly sore or feeling very strong or some combination thereof because of the training that we've been doing, which makes me feel like what we've been working on is showing results. R: Oh, definitely. A: And I know that logically. And I have literally tracked that. Like, we have some video that we take independent from the video chat that we take independently to just double check how we're doing on specific moves. And it's improving, but it's very nice to be able to just kind of, at any moment stop, feel how I feel. And either way, go, "yes, I worked out recently", and that reminds me that life can be very good. 'Cause I can move forward towards the things that I'm trying to achieve. And honestly, the idea that I can continue to make small steps forward towards things that I want to achieve over a long period of time is a thing that I was not fully convinced was true prior to the time we have spent inside. R: Now the trick is going to see, can you do it out there someday? A: I'm convinced I can. R: Good. A: That has been- It was sort of- I think it was not due to the fact that we have been indoors that that is the case. R: No. A: It simply was where I was in my life. At about that point in time, R: You had time to kind of take stock. A: And I have been able to work on projects and I have been able to move them forward slowly and that has been remarkable to me. And so when you talk about life being good, R: Doing stuff, A: Doing stuff makes me feel really good and makes me convinced that I can have an impact on at least my immediate surroundings. And then I pop online and find out that people care about this silly shenanigan. And I go, "Oh, apparently I can have an impact on further than just my immediate surroundings." and- R: People want to know about your pens. A: That has been amazing. So I really appreciate all of you guys. R: Yeah I was going to say I am very grateful for people who listen to "Two Clowns in a Closet" because otherwise we would just be sitting here. A: It's true, R: We'd probably talk. We'd probably swear more. A: That is also probably true. *laughs* R: I'm afraid so. Well, that's- A: But that is all the questions we have R: For this go A: For this go around. R: Yeah A: So I suppose it is time for us to be off. Go have some tea. R: Definitely A: And we will be back R: With another stack of questions from you, so keep sending them. In the meantime, this has been A: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: And we're glad you were here with us. See you next time. All right. Escape O'clock. *begins sounding out the Mission Impossible Theme* A: *whispers* We don't hav- R: What? A: That's intellectual property of somebody else. R: Oh, you're right. I can't even get out of the closet in a cool way now. *sighs* A: I mean you can make up your own. R: I don't need to. We have theme music. Check this out. *sound of door opening* *Theme Music Plays*