----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 08 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2022-03-28 ----------------------------------- Russ: Hello. Avalon: Hello. R: Fancy meeting you here. A: Right? R: I was talking to this microphone over here that's carefully tucked in the closet. A: Oh, Hello. R: I knew you were going to be here. I also knew you were going to be here. I'm very excited that I'm going to be here any second now. A: Are you here yet? R: I am. A: Oh, wow. R: As promised, I have come up a flight of stairs, around a corner, cross a room through this little door, and in here with the two of you for another exciting episode of A: 'Two Clowns in a Closet'. R: Feels good when you nail the brand doesn't it? A: It is really enjoyable every time I say it. R: It's satisfying. I know. I like doing it. It's a fun little game. Hello, everyone. We're back. We have more questions. A: We do. We have another little handful. R: Another little handful of- A: *singing* Another little handful of questions R: And answers, I hope. Did you bring some? A: I expect that I have them, yes. I don't have them written down. R: You don't? I have a few in my hat, so we're good. A: Perfect. R: Okay. I find it funny that I bring the hat for the actual takes, but more than half the time I take it off. Also, this is the first episode of 'Two Clowns in a Closet', the podcast that we filmed when it is sweaty in here. A: Yeah, it's actually quite warm in here. R: We may melt midway through. So we're counting on you to understand that we are two very warm clowns in a closet for the first time. And we're used to being snugly with blanket. You even brought the blanket. A: Well, I don't want to mess with the audio. R: And you like the snuggly blanket. A: I love the snuggley blanket. It's really annoying that I am both snuggling and sweating. R: You're- A: Don't try. Do not- R: Swuggling? No, that's swimming and juggling. A: That is swimming and juggling. R: I know somebody- A: You can't also be swuggling, R: So I guess you're sneatting. A: Oh, that sounds awful. R: I'm unhappy. A: Why did you do that? R: I'm unhappy I said it. Okay. We're here. We brought our friends they've trapped us in here and we're sneatting our tail feathers off. *laughs* A: Yes, we are. R: And so with that in mind, A: Are you ready? R: Yeah, I think I finally am. A: Really? R: Yeah. A: Nice. R: There comes a moment when you realize you're ready. In fact, I'm so ready. The questions, please. Oh, I hold in my hand the first question from the card, peepers on my eyes. Peep enhancers, I think. A: Yes R: Because they're glasses. And I am about to read to you, my friend. The first question. A: This is very exciting. R: I know you are excited. I'm not vamping. I'm building up the anticipation. Drum roll, please. A: *hand on legs 'drum roll'* R: This is a very good drum roll. A: Thank you. R: That was nice. That was nice. "What is the best circus food you've eaten? What is the worst circus food and what is circus food?" A: That is quite a question. R: It is actually three questions jammed into one card. A: Well, I could have separated them out, but then we would have independently had those questions scattered throughout the series. R: Just randomly. "What's the worst-" A: "What is circus food?" after you've already answered the other two? I think it should really be answered first. R: Well, then why don't you go through them backwards? A: Okay. R: We go "What is?", "worst", "best". A: Okay. So when I think about circus food, R: Define it. A: I realize that I don't think that I think about the same thing most people think about when it comes to circus food, because to me, being a performer who does circus performance, I'm thinking about the backstage (mispronounced 'backsnage'), R: The backsnage? A: The backsnage, you're making up- R: You're sneating and it's throwing your words! A: the backstage snacks and foods that performers eat. And I think that is a different category of circus food from what most people think of, because I think most people think of, kind of, either one just what is going to be at a concession stand in a circus tent, which is a very specific kind of set of things, or two, the kind of wider range carnival food, fair food, R: It's its own scary thing A: Of which I kind of feel like what you're going to find in a concession stand at a circus tent is sort of a subcategory of the wider array of R: A subcategory of that which would be known as food? A: No, fair food. R: Oh, okay. A: Fair food or Carnival food. R: Okay. But I think we could say to you. You've defined the categories. A: So, I think there's kind of like two categories. Two, three categories. R: So for you, it's the backstage dirty secret world, the nasty stuff and the good stuff. Fill in the blanks. A: I'm so confused by what you've just said. R: Okay. What do you like to eat backstage? A: Backstage, I like- So actually, I have to have this. This is not something that I just like. This is something that I always bring with me because I need it. There is a particular brand of energy bar, sports bar that I eat. I'm not going to shout them out because they've not paid for us to do so. R: To be fair, if they sent us a few cases, I think we can- A: Oh, we would start adding them out immediately. R: We can be bought with food, with snacks, apparently. A: Yes. I do have pretty much exclusively their chocolate chip cookie- R: Because you're a grown up A: -flavor. But I eat one of those to calm down and settle into a place. So I'll get somewhere and I'm backstage, The first thing I have to do is just like sit down, have some water and have a bar because it just sort of settles me in and grounds me. R: You're like a goldfish. We have to put you in the tank and let you get used to it, and then we can open the bag and let you swim around A: Kind of R: That's okay. Everyone is allowed to have an eccentricity backstage. I tell students this all the time. You can have one thing because the world of performances is kind of very off from reality. And so having something that's your thing, it's going to disappear. I mean, if you got 30 things? Okay, maybe we say you're a pain. A: Yeah, but you can have a couple if you can take care of them yourself. R: Oh, yeah. A: You can really have one that's theoretically in imposition on others. R: Is that your theory? A: I think so. I think you can have one if it's going to be an imposition on others. You can have more if you're self contained. R: Speaking of self contained, would you contain your remarks to the subject of circus food and not eccentric habits backstage? They're the same thing. Worst and best, please. A: So that is my absolutely must have backstage. Worst? I don't think I have had, like, a negative experience with food backstage. R: You weren't tortured by an orange peanut at some point. That wasn't actually a peanut. A: Circus peanuts. Those are awful. R: They're neither! They're neither! A: They're so awful. R: They're neither festive spectacles of fun, nor are they food, nor are they in any way a peanut. A: I actually really liked them as a kid. I would not like them now. I did like them as a kid. R: They're made of orange poor choices. A: Yes. And I didn't mind that in my youth. But there are some things that we just plain can't have as backstage food. Talking about orange poor choices, there's a wide range of snack chips that are stainy and awful, and those just aren't an option. You can't have anything that's going to stain your teeth. You can't have anything that's going to stain your costume. R: You're destroying one illusion after another. You know that, right? It's great. A: Is that not what this is for? R: I assumed it was. That people were like, "Tell us the seedy underbelly of having a good time". And here we are. A: I mean there's- I've seen a lot of, like, snack crackers and stuff, but not stuff that's- you can't have stuff that's going to be getting into your teeth or changing your appearance, really in any significant way. Whenever I eat backstage, I have to check my makeup because I wear makeup. Normally that's not a huge deal because luckily- R: You've learned a chipmunk trick. A: No- R: You tuck the snack- A: No. R: You break the snack bar in half, A: No you don't. R: You tuck it into your cheeks and off you go. A: No, you don't. You do learn how to just bite just with your teeth, though, and not worthy with your lips. But on top of that, grease paint, once it's been set, holds pretty well. Like you can have some snacks and not really have a huge problem. You're probably not going to have a full meal backstage, but you're probably not going to have a full meal backstage anyway. That's sort of where I am on that. R: Okay, so what's the worst circus food and the best circus food? You've still dodged the question. You talked about your experience behind the curtain, which is great. A: Yes, So then of the more food that if you go to a circus, you're going to have, I think my favorite is probably popcorn. R: Yes A: Just about every time I go to a circus, I'm gonna buy popcorn. I'm going to enjoy eating it. R: Throw it at the audience? A: No. R: Why not? A: That's my popcorn. It's going in my mouth. That's what you do with popcorn. R: Wait. I've been to a show where it was a melodrama and you could throw popcorn. Popcorn at the audience. I mean, at the performers. See, it's all backwards for me. A: It's popcorn. It goes in your mouth. Why would-? There is nothing that a performer on stage is going to do that's going to make me feel like I should throw my popcorn at them. R: I didn't say I was for this. I said it was an experience, and I wanted to see how you responded to it. Now we know you are greedy about your popcorn. I'll get my own. Thanks. A: My popcorn. R: Okay. A: I will even share popcorn with a friend. Like, I am willing to share popcorn with a friend, but I'm not going to throw it at the stage. And if somebody who's my friend, who's theoretically sharing popcorn with me, were to take popcorn and throw it at the stage, even in a situation where that's encouraged, we're no longer sharing popcorn. That's now mine. They gave up their rights to it. R: How much of this? Just before we continue, I have to ask. How much of this is because you really feel strongly about popcorn. How much of this is you've always had to sweep the stage. A: I feel strongly about popcorn. R: Okay. A: You're going to sweep the stage no matter what. It's fine if it's covered in popcorn, it's at least not confetti. R: True. Okay. Best. So that was the best. A: That was probably the best. R: So what's the worst? A: And worst circus food, for me, personally. R: Yes A: This is probably a 180 from my childhood, because when I was a kid, I would have loved it. But now, with the eating habits I've currently developed, I don't consume a lot of sugar. R: *affirmative noise* A: I actively avoid processed sugar. I feel weird about that, not about making that decision for myself, because that was something I discovered that for me doesn't work really well, but it annoys me because there are a lot of people out there who are like, "Oh, sugar causes ADD or ADD is really just kids who are hyped up on sugar". This is a thing people believe, and that is 100% not the case. And at the same time, my brain does not function as well R: On sugar A: When I consume sugar as it does when I don't. R: I've seen evidence that you get a little fuzzy. A: Yeah. So for me, it made a difference when I cut that out of my diet. So I did. So at this point, my body doesn't handle it well at all because I cut it out. So for me, I think, like, the worst possible thing I could consume at a circus would be candy floss. R: Cotton candy. A: Cotton candy, yeah. R: Cotton candy, well yeah, that's the fluff dreams are made of. A: Yeah. And as a child? R: What's not to like? A: Like, I would see the people with the poles full of R: Yeah A: cotton-. I was immediately begging for that, you know, $1.25 R: Were you- Is that that much at that point? It was a nickel when I was young! I'm kidding. What color did you go for? Do you remember? A: Pink R: Always pink. Okay. A: Always pink. I would often end up getting the multi color pack, but if I only could pick one color, it was the pink one. But that was like, I was so there. If you could feed me just- if I could get a hold of just colored sugar, like Pixie sticks, they made like, those giant ones? Yes, I was so there. That was my thing. I loved it. So it's a little bit weird now to be like, "oh, no, no, no, that's a bad day!" R: Okay, well, we now learn, don't fill you full of sugar. Do fill you full of popcorn. Don't throw it at anyone. Only put in your mouth. And backstage, you are a goldfish that needs their snacks. A: I think that is an accurate summary on what we've learned here today. R: It's quite a summary. I like it. A: I'm glad. R: I'm a fan. A: So now I will ask you. R: Oh, yeah, I got to do go under the same bus. A: "What's the best circus food you've eaten? What's the worst circus food? And what is circus food?" R: Before I even unzip an opinion, I have to say this. I have a messed up relationship growing up with food, I was very unhealthy. And I got healthy late in life. And a big part of that was getting my diet sorted out. And then I had some health stuff which severely restricted my diet. So food and I have always been like, I like food. I love food, but I can't eat junk and I've never really been able to. I was just kind of treating myself badly. And once I got that out of my system, life got good. So right away I have this weird thing. Also, on event sites, I tend to eat before, have a snack during, eat after. So I can't really eat while I'm working because I crash my blood sugar. And if I get a stomach full of food, I can't do my job. So I like to just kind of keep going. A: It's also nice not to just break the illusion and have the character visibly eating the food that everyone else has. R: This has nothing to do with characters or illusions. This has to do with my tummy hurts and I get sleepy. Okay? A: Well, I get that. But I feel like- R: I know you're a strong proponent that you are an illusion made of cartoon meat. And I get that and I respect that. And I give you your candy floss filled dream. I, on the other hand, an old person with a bad tummy, and I have to watch what I put in it. Otherwise, what comes out of it is not happiness. A: You're getting very aggressive. R: I'm not aggressive. I'm just defending my somewhat torqued position. All I'm saying is that like a lot of people, I have a weird relationship with food. And what I specifically don't have is that I've never grown up with a sweet tooth. Even though I ate a lot. Whatever it was I liked, I ate a lot of it. I never had a sweet tooth, which was weird. I love, like, the look of sweets. I love like, You show me little cookies and cups, like, oh, "I want to see them" and people want to eat them. I'm like, "Yeah, you get to eat that. I'm super happy." I love it. Like the fondant cakes that are the sculptures. When those show up at events and places, I think they're the neatest thing, but when I eat them, I'm so sad. And also I get really jacked up on sugar and see vapor trails and then pass out. So it's not fun for anybody. Moving me unconscious is not a good time. A: No, that doesn't sound like it would be. R: It doesn't sound like a good time. So I didn't have that. And I don't have the like, "I get reward, put the thing in the mouth". I don't have that wiring. And I know that makes me an alien to a lot of people, but I do love good food and I love to eat, and I love that my house is full of good food. I was talking about that recently. It just makes me really happy. So circus food to me is the fuel I need to go be awesome. Personally, like, backstage me, you were talking about your snacks, whatever. A little bit of that. And you learn every trick in the world, whether it's energy bars or a big pot of hummus that you're taking little bites of throughout the day, A: Oh yeah, I definitely believe that, that hummus R: Whatever that is. And then, yeah, the tricks I learned backstage are like, when my show is over, I know my blood sugar is going. So I go backstage. And even if my next task is to leave, I am going to very quickly have a snack. So in case I meet the person who hired me, I don't growl at them A: *laughs* R: Because the other dirty secret is that it's physical performance. At the end of that, you're going to eat someone. I once reached for the salt in front of an aerialist, and they growled at me like a hungry junkyard dog and I was made of steak! And I was like, "I'm sorry, I didn't mean it". They were after a show. We're not supposed to talk about it. I'm not going to name any names, but blood sugar gets low. Things happen. So I'm a big believer in calories are mood enhancers, and they are good in that respect. A: I feel like people are going to walk away from this thinking that people have died- R: Backstage! A: because of altercations/the need for snacks. R: I want to point out that I think that most of what goes wrong in the world is a lack of snacks. Come on, think about it. If everybody "Okay, hold on. We're at the brink here. Let's take five minutes. Have a beverage and a snack and start again". A: I think that would help. I don't think it would solve everything, but I think it would help. R: I think it'd be a good start. A: Yeah. R: So the other thing, like I say, is getting that meal after a gig. Healthy food after a gig. Oh, you've performed your butt off. That is circus food to me. A: Healthy food? It doesn't have to be healthy food. I've seen you devour some stuff that's definitively not healthy. R: They were potatoes before they were fried within an inch of their life. No, I understand that, but I do love to eat. Like after a performance, there's that thing in your brain that one, you have to reload the system, and two, you have to put a lot in there and three, either if you're traveling, someone has brought it to you and you feel loved, or you're at home and someone cares about you and they feed you because you cannot feed yourself because your brain is gone. I love that. It's a big act of love. I like doing it for other people. So that's- circus and food are kind of different than I think, what a lot of people think they are for me because- And I'm sure that's very different than- I know a lot of performers that live on candy. I mean, I do. A: Oh yeah. R: I am not one of those people. Now, as far as worst and best, when I came to the state of Texas, I discovered the existence of a thing called a funnel cake. A: Oh, yeah, R: A funnel cake, for those who do not know, is you take a deep fat fryer and you sort of drizzle pancake batter in there, and then you cover it in powdered sugar. So really, that plus a corn dog, is everything you need to have every health problem that plagues this country A: Definitively the state- R: Oh surely A: because that is R: The state food, isn't it? A: -the meal. R: It's the state food. A: It's at least the meal of the state fair. If it's not the state food. R: All I know is it's- carnival food in general, going outside the circus tent for a moment, carnival food is the cheapest common denominator. It's designed to be quick and easy and fun, taste good be full of fat and sugar and it's great. I'm glad people are enjoying it, but it always kind of when I think about it, I don't know. Weirdly, the best food I've ever had, though, was at a carnival. A: Oh? R: So on the best column, I have to give you the best column. I got, after complaining about the state fair, which it's great, but- I got asked if I would show up at the Texas State Veggie Fair, which was the side project thing unrelated to the state fair. The veggie fair was all these vegetarian and vegan restaurants and healthy minded businesses. And I am not a health nut, per se. All the things I've done for my diet are about "Do I feel good?" "Yes". "Keep doing that". "Do I feel bad?" "No", "Stop doing that". I mean, that was kind of how that worked out. But would we show up at this? Because I had all these booths and things but they needed some entertainers. And I said, "Yeah, we'll show up". We come out, we do the thing. And they were like, "Here, have food". And I'm like, "Yeah, thank you". And my instant thought was "yeah, and I'm going to just not eat". A: So they just, like, handed you food? R: Well, they handed us the coupons. A: Ahh R: They kind of handed us like the midway coupons. The things that make it- fake money, not real money. So I got these- A: That costs real money to get. R: I don't know how these things work. I'm here to be a clown A: Okay R: in a closet telling a story. A: Go for it. R: So here I am with these. And normally, like I said, I kind of say "Thank you very much". And then I just go do my thing and then I leave. The logistics of this place were I couldn't bring snacks with me. A: Oh, no. R: I don't know why. I can't remember if there was like a health ordinance thing that I couldn't bring outside food on because they were controlling allergens or whatever the reason was. I was told that they will make sure I can eat anything I want, but they have to provide. There was a requirement of the event at the time. A: Okay R: I have no idea who remains to be in that year it was. And I was like, "All right, I guess I'll sneak out and get back in the street clothes and go get some food". And I went through a line and there was a food truck that served me a tofu Bahn mi. That was the best thing I have put in my mouth in years. And it's a vivid memory of a perfect food truck experience. And they're not really popular here. So it was so out of character. It's so good. And I've seen them at other events that have gone up. A: Oh, yeah. R: If lunch is coming from somewhere A: I think I know which food truck you're talking about. And it is delicious. R: Yeah. So that was really good, which is the opposite of circus food, because it is not a candy cane, it is not a funnel cake, it is not popcorn. But yeah, I have a nice sandwich and I love that. But I have really strong, happy thoughts about people eating cookies and eating cakes and whatever makes them happy because it's all good. It doesn't work for me. For me, the best circus food is the cup of coffee I have before I go teach. The little espresso I might have before I go perform. That's a little ritual for me. And I love that. And it's not a pretension that I sit with my special coffee. It's I just have a quiet moment and I enjoy this and I think and then I go do the thing. A: It's not hugely different than me and my bar. R: Yeah. It's just centering. Finding something makes you feel good. A: Yeah. Taking a moment for yourself. R: I think the greatest truth that comes out of this, I think it's interesting because food is this very human thing. What I think is really interesting is that we are because we're in it, we're backstage of it. We have a very different experience in this world than the people who go and visit it. And I'm so glad that they are having that carnival, that circus, that heightened experience. A: Oh, totally. R: Because if you're in the tent eating popcorn. Oh, I just remember something. If you're in the eating popcorn, Mexican circus, they put chili powder on the popcorn. A: Oooh R: Got to try it. If you haven't tried it, you got to try it. So these different things, they're great. But at the end of the day, you're asking me, me with health issues, with body issues, with everything I have to do my job issues. That's my workplace. What do I need to be at? The food that makes me feel good and makes my body run well? Best circus food in the world. A: Yup. R: And so I think that answers it for me. A: All right. R: All right. Thank you for the question. That was nice. A: Yeah, it was a good one. R: There's a lot of memories and a lot of taste. I'm also now craving popcorn. A: Right? Might have to have some after. R: Maybe, if we're good. A: Are you ready for the next question? R: Is it for me? Oh, yeah. A: Yeah, You asked the other one. I get to ask this one. R: Okay. I'm ready to receive. A: Okay. R: Okay. A: "Can you tell us what Big Bill taught you about performing?" R: Yes. *pause* A: I should probably follow up and clarify that. I would very much like it if you shared with the viewers- viewers what? You guys can't see anything. R: Imagine, if you will, two sweaty clowns in a closet. Now imagine they've showered recently. It's fine. A: But will you? R: I'd be happy to, delighted to. Delighted to. I think first I have to explain who Big Bill is before I can say what he taught me. A: That's probably a good idea. I've never met Big Bill. R: You have not. So starting off, this is very exciting. I got a text recently from Big Bill. I hadn't heard from Big Bill in a very long time. And I recently heard that Big Bill is alive and well and healthy and happy and still juggling occasionally. A: Awesome. R: So I was very excited to hear from him, and I'm very excited that coin, coincidentally, we have a question about him, which, of course, was because I was telling stories about Big Bill, which is what led to all of this lovely news. So that said, Bill, I'm about to tell stories about you. If that makes you happy, good. If it makes you unhappy, please write me a letter and complain. And then I can be sad with you about it, but I'm going to tell the story because I think it's a good story. So Big Bill was one of the- you laugh! I'm not going to retract. I'm not going to redact. A: I noticed. R: I'm going to go telling the story. A: Okay, tell the story. R: Big Bill was one of the founding members of the Circus Freaks. Now, you have to understand that when we started, the Circus Freaks came out of a juggling group, which I joined as just someone who was going there to have fun called Creative Motion. And Creative Motion started doing a lot of things where they would just show up at events, and they were invited to events, and they eventually developed a core group that both ran the org and were sort of the performers that would go to do- We called it a demo team, A: Okay, yeah. R: And they would demonstrate skills. So that's where we got our start. Then we got delusions of theater. Much different story. But Big Bill was there at the beginning. He was there for the founding of the Circus Freaks. He was in the original meetings. He's one of the people who decided that I absolutely was already doing the job of running it, so I should run it. A: So was there for the nose goes conversation. R: Apparently, he knew the game better than me. So there I was. We got a phone call, and the phone call came around the time where we had decided we were going to create the Circus Freaks. We started talking about, and we did the paperwork. We hadn't performed yet at that level. A: Okay. R: So we're very early days. We hadn't done anything. No clown training, no theater training. Just "We're a thing now. Hope that's okay". You know, we were kinda "Now we're going to rehearse a lot till we have something". It was very early on. I get this phone call, and the phone call comes from a Shriner clown. And the Shriner clown, who retired, was doing a charity event, and he wanted to know if we had some performers, because they had built the show and they had a spot for a physical performer, and they had a hula hooper, and she had gotten sick. A: Oh no. R: I promise I'm going to come back around a Big Bill in a second, but I need to set all of this up. And she had in between sneezing and coughing, and it feels weird to talk about that, obviously, during this time in history, but this was a completely innocent, harmless, and later proved to be even minor head cold, but enough to keep someone off the stage because that's not a visual anybody wants. A: Yup. R: So they said that she, being this lovely person, recommended that we take the spot. And so the Shriner clown called said, "Could we do it?" And we said, "Yes". And this later led to a wonderful relationship working with this person. But we were asked if we were doing I said, "Okay, yeah, when is it?" I got the date. I hung up the phone, and I walked the next day into the meeting of the Circus Freaks core group and I said, "Guess what, everybody? I got our first gig" and everybody's like, "oh, wow, Circus Freaks. We're going to be ready to go". I said, "Yeah, in one week we're going to do a thing" and everybody sort of stopped. And you could feel that "We are going to kill our fearless leader". A: Maybe he should have had some fear. R: Maybe he should have asked first. As it turned out, everybody was on board. There was a very nerve wracking moment. I was like, "Well, if we're going to do this, we're doing it. So we've been asked to do it. So let's get it done". We very quickly put together something. We were very terrified. And we had a week to choreograph. And the idea was it was a small stage and we thought, "Well, if we all hide behind our props, our skills, rather than being out there being vulnerable, and we all jump on the stage at the same time and we do something to music, it'll be a big spectacle and no one will get hurt and they'll clap and it'll be over quick". And everybody went with that. That was the creative director of the Circus Freaks first call. "Everybody got up there and dance!". It was a bad idea. It went great, above and beyond what it should have. But that's a separate point. So we've agreed to do this. We choreographed something. We're all going to mob the stage and do all this, like, semi choreograph stuff. It's going to be very silly and I'm there. I am not a lifelong performer with a lifelong set of skills. I'm a performer who's now had a fair bit of experience, but I'm freaking out. There's this long hallway behind the stage and I am crammed in the far corner of it, trying to sort of press myself against the wall and simultaneously see if I could become a stain on the wall, then no one would ever see me and if I disassociate while I'm in this position, I can just sort of disappear forever and I'm freaking- like full on flop, sweat, panic attack, freaking out backstage. It is twelve minutes before I go on, right? It's that moment. A: Yeah. R: And a shadow is cast over me. That's a Big Bill. Now you have to understand, I told you I'd come around. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: You don't get a name like Big Bill unless one of two things are true. Either you're a very small person and you have very ironic friends or you have a very big person and they have some very point out the obvious friends. Bill was clearly in the latter category. Bill worked amongst his many things he did, in addition to the juggling worked with like, Last chance education systems, where if two high school kids messed up and attacked each other, he would grab one of each of them and pick them up in the air and hold them just out of range of each other until they ran out of gas. And then he would look at them and say, "Maybe we should use our words". And then he would stand there until they calmed down and started talking. And as they talked, he would lower them slowly to the ground. A: Wow. R: This is to say, Big Bill was a big dude, a mountain of a man, and all of it heart and beard. Very, very good, quality person. And so this mountain was standing over me saying, "What's wrong?" I peeled enough of me away from the wall, and I must have muttered something coherent. But if you asked me, I have no idea what it was. *incoherent babble* And Bill says, "Look, people don't come to a theater, buy a ticket, get a program, look, see your name, sit down in the front row, stare at the stage and say, 'Gosh, I hope this really sucks'. Nobody does that! Nobody spends their money to support a charitable event going, 'I'm looking forward to this being bad'." He says, "No. They look at they go, 'Hey, my friend's in here, this is going to be awesome'. Or 'I don't know who this is. Maybe they'll become someone I like. I hope it's good'." He said, "Everyone there in the audience on the other side", and he's big enough he could reach over and touch the other wall, that was the back of the theater. Says, "Everyone on the other side of this wall is your best friend. They either are your friend. They know you, or they haven't met you yet. You're about to introduce yourself. Just go out there and have a good time. Go play with your friends." That was Big Bill. Now, I can't tell you if Big Bill was a stopped clock and was right exactly twice, or if he was a sage, wise giant. I can't tell you. What I can tell you is this. It completely reframed my relationship with performing for audiences because suddenly I was introduced to this idea that was not native to me, which is that I could have a non adversarial relationship with those people. And they weren't "those people". They were the people I was going to have a connection with soon. And instead of being nervous about that, I could sort of get to the point where once I breathe through that, I could even get to excited about that. Because as a performer, early on, you have all these- the thing you do is your trick. Whether you're a musician, a dancer, a juggler, it doesn't matter. You have a trick and you're hiding behind your trick. A: Oh, yeah. R: And so the idea is that you go out there and you hide. And if you learn to not hide, and instead you go out there and you meet the people and then you do a trick for them. We like you so much more. The audience, we love you. And so I learned this, and I had a great night, and he changed my life. The irony of all of this is that later on I went on to study clown, and I found myself studying with a really amazing clown teacher. And he told me the almost exact same piece of advice. And I think because I heard it twice, once under great duress and once when I was trying to really pay attention, it finally sank in. And slowly but surely, I've learned to really love being up there because it's when I'm going to have some friends, because theater creates this beautiful intimacy and connection that you don't get anywhere else. And so I'm always very grateful to Big Bill, who might even hear this, I don't know. But I'm very grateful to him because he gave me this lesson that really kind of- I was on the path, but he kind of gave me some guidance, which I have now since talked to a lot of- you heard me tell this story. A: I have heard you tell this story. R: Thank you for letting me get it out again. To a lot of performers who I think needed to hear it. I later went on to even record some stuff about that that became part of my teaching. So it was a key lesson that came from someone who wasn't- and this is the punchline of all this, is that he was a very smart, good person, but was not classically trained in performance. He got to start juggling at ren-fares. He was not as a "man of the theater". He was just a person who cared, who had a good attitude and gave me such a good note. So that is what Big Bill taught me about performing. A: That is wonderful R: and I'm glad I could share it with you. A: Well, then I guess I will hand the stack of cards back to you. R: Are we just going to skip ahead because Big Bill hasn't taught you anything about performing? A: True. Although you retell this story. R: I do. A: And I've heard you retell this story a bunch of times, and I think it has impacted me. I had done enough performing to get past a lot of stage fright R: *Affirmative Noise* A: before I met you. But I think I'd seen enough, like the online competition. Not online. The television competition, music shows. R: Sure. A: And stuff that, you know, I think I did consider the audience to be a judging creature, R: Yeah. A: If not absolutely adversarial. I think I at least expected judgment. R: It's so interesting to see that one of those predominant forms of media and television is the song contest. Like, be the best singer, be the best dancer, be the best, whatever. And the premise of it, from the point of view of entertaining the audience, is all wrong. A: Yeah, R: It really is, because the goal is to go out there and make a connection and have a good time, not be the best. A: Yeah. I can tell that it really got into my subconscious because at one point in a workshop, Jane was asked how she would deal with an audience member who was actively hostile or asleep in the front row. And she responded with something to the effect of whether or not- "They're not my audience". R: Boy, that's sage wisdom. A: Yeah. And I think it's a directly connected thought. R: Yeah A: Is that, you know, the people who showed up to see you, they're the audience. They want to be here, be with you and go on an adventure, and that's what you then lead them on. And I think that if it's just a group of people who aren't an audience yet, it's a bunch of people who might be milling around, but they're not there and with you. There are skills that you can develop to help shift a group of people who just happened to be there into an audience. R: I think the whole of theater is really a ritual about creating a safe space for emotional communication. And yeah, there's an invocation, the entrance, which is the most complicated part of a good performance. If you get the entrance down, the rest is pretty easy. But you get the entrance down and the entrance says, "I'm here and I'm here to see you, and you're here to see me. And we're going to do this thing, and we're going to have this moment together". And it's an invocation to create this, you know, take a group of disparate people who are doing their own thing and say get them to become an entity called an audience, which is ready to receive that communication. And that's why I think live performance is so important is because getting to be a part of every aspect of that, whether you're a performer, getting to feel that, whether you're in the audience, getting to receive that, or you're in the support staff getting to help create the space where that can happen, you're a part of a very old ritual. A: Oh, yeah. And so I think when you talk about you know, your friends and the people who haven't had the opportunity to become your friends yet, that's what that group of people whose half of an audience is. R: Yeah. A: Because the audience is your friends, that group that isn't quite the audience yet are people who aren't your friends yet because they don't know you. R: And not to disparage. I won't disparage anyone in the crowd. I mean, everybody's got a story going on. Everyone's got something happening. A: Oh, yes. R: What I always say is they haven't arrived, you know, "I've made an entrance, but they haven't arrived yet". And so you have to give everybody a minute to settle. And it's funny, the culmination of that is we were asked once to do our entire act in 90 seconds. And I told them, I said, "I'm not sure I can get on stage in 90 seconds". A: Yeah. Because an audience isn't ready for you in 90 seconds. R: I can't imagine. I move slow. A: So that same story. And then the stuff has come from that has had a deep effect on me. So I will say that that much is true. R: Bill, you hear that? You're still teaching people not just old clowns, but young ones too. Good for you. A: Also. Hi. We haven't met. R: I know. Do you want to introduce yourself or shall we go on? A: No, we can move forward. R: Okay. I'm glad you two had a moment. That's nice. A: Thank you. R: Okay, here we go. Next question. Big topic change. Are you braced? A: Yes. R: Okay. Are you? Okay, good. Bill, settle in for this one. "What are your thoughts on privacy? How do you handle the conflict of being a performer in public spaces where people will photograph you and not wanting to be a part of the worldwide data sets that identify you by face?" Somebody threw a big fish at you. A: Yes. R: Right after talking about finally getting connected to people in the world. Now we're talking about runaway and hide stuff. A: So that particular question, when I wrote that question down on that card, I paraphrased, R: Okay. A: Because we received an email from somebody who considers themselves to be a performer and is running into this exact situation. And they were curious about our thoughts on this because we have expressed online that we use a lot of free, libre, open source software, which in the super quick summary, that is enough for anybody who has no idea what that is: It's stuff where you can look at the source code and see what's actually inside there. R: Oh, did you feel the "Well, actually", like well up at the corners of the room? A: Yes, I did. R: I'm afraid we got it wrong, and I feel it. A: To all of the "Well, actually's", the subject of FLOSS or FOSS software is large and complicated. I am giving the simplest version I can. I recognize the complexities here. Let's move on. R: Before you do. Also, if you are thinking, "Hey, I'm about to get all of my views on privacy and technology from us", please remember that we are A: Two clowns in a closet R: with a microphone. And maybe we're not the experts. A: But we can at least share our personal thoughts. R: Okay, that said. Good luck. A: So they're aware that we use a lot of those sort of software options and that we've backed away from some of the standard social media places. I've publicly written about de-Googling my life R: Okay A: insofar as I can, because I do think that there's some real dangers and some real problems with some of the things that we're seeing coming out of these big tech corporations. On the point of trying to perform publicly in a world in which those very real problems exist. When I decided that I was going to have a life where I performed, one of the things that I felt I had to accept, and this may not be true, but this is the way I view it, is that there is a certain level of turning my face, my body, my voice into things that are publicly visible, because that's what performing in a public venue is. And at that point, you have no control over what happens there. People will take your photograph. People will videotape you, and for what that is, that is a good thing. It's people making mementos for them to take home, to remember they saw you and recognizing that if you take on the realm of being a performer in any variant on that, your livelihood depends on a certain level of the public becoming aware of your existence. Even if you never get, quote, unquote, "famous". One, you are opening yourself up to the possibility of becoming famous. You are opening yourself up to the possibility of becoming well known. I'm not saying you're gonna become famous. I'm saying it's on the table because you've put yourself out there. And that's part of the package deal of getting to go and entertain, particularly if you're doing it in a public space, which this person was specifically asking about public street performance. R: Okay. A: Is it's part of the deal. And because it's part of the deal, and because that's a deal I accepted, I care immensely that that is a deal that one can opt into. Right now, in a lot of ways, nobody gets the opportunity to opt out of that deal because that's a situation where all in all the time. There are some ways in which you can opt out of certain parts of it. And if you can, if that's something you're capable of, I think it's a good and healthy thing to do is to opt out of that. And I think it's a problem that it takes as much work as it does to opt out of these things, because if I've decided to make a certain presentation of myself, my public performing personas, if I've decided to take those and put them out there for the public to see, I should be able to decide where that ends. I should be able to decide that in my own home, there's no more of that. I should be able to- I mean, you can't do anything about when you're on the street walking to the grocery store. To- many a super famous person has dealt with exactly that, because paparazzi are a thing for this reason. But I think that you should be able to define your own boundaries. And I think that when you run into the situation where technology keeps you from being able to define your own boundaries or actively fights you to only take the tiny little bit of boundaries that they want you to have, which is pretty much nothing, that's a problem. And we should do what we can to keep that from being the case. So I will say to the person, to anyone who wants to perform. That is, to a certain level, you opting in to a level of public perception. But I think you should be able to opt out of public database perception of you in your private spaces. And I feel like, you know, people will point out that many of these systems are done "privately" in "protected" databases. I will say if it's on a computer that's connected to the internet, it may never become public, but you can't count on that. So, that's my views on it. I've written some on this. I've not written everything I think about this, but I've written some on this. R: You've just given us quite the manifesto. I was sitting here listening, and I thought to myself, I'm going to have to take a totally you said so much that's of my mind of it. I've got things to say. A: Yeah, we have a lot in common on our views on this. R: Sure. But I think it's very impressive because I think you've just given us a really interesting view of the weird problem that exists as we are as a performer. You've made a choice to expose yourself off to some degree. A: Yes. R: And if many performers work under a pseudonym or with some distance, but it's still ultimately you're out there, you're putting yourself in a vulnerable position. But that is part of the choice. And I think the thing that you emphasized, which was that it being both an informed choice and something that is a choice that you can opt out of. I'm not saying dodge the responsibilities of should you do something in that state, but that you can back away from when you decide "Okay, that's enough. That's my boundary". R: Yeah. R: I think you said a very important few things, so I'm going to have to take a new angle here. A: "So what are your thoughts on privacy? How do you handle the conflict of being a performer in public spaces where people will photograph you and not wanting to be part of the worldwide data sets that identify you by face?" R: Wow. So I've always been kind of geek by hobby. I did some design work, but it's never really been my job to be a geek. It just happened. And my friends were very much technology people, and so I was always talking to them and kind of getting an earful and going and reading things and sort of trying to get my head around this very complicated- It's a complicated problem and trying to get my head around it. And I think I had an experience almost five years ago now. That really cemented something important for me about this topic. So you can way-back machine and realize the entire world was internationally a bit of a different flavor of yikes at that point. And as sort of a safe experiment, I was going to Calgary to study and looking at the world. I want to have a different view of something. And so I decided to go without a cell phone, without a smartphone, without a device. And I know that years ago this was normal, but this was like the first time I had to do something like that. Conveniently it was also, I had an itinerary that was going to keep me busy, I had a group of people who had their phones in there. This was a me decision. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: And I said, "I'm going to try this and I'm just not going to bring it. And I hope that isn't a problem. And I'm going to try". And everybody was like, "Yeah, okay, sure, whatever". Nobody cares. They went back to their phones. So, well, I had all these interesting moments of, I started to write things down that I wanted to look up, so I felt my curiosity coming back. I'm like, this happened. None of those mattered. The moment that mattered. This is embarrassing. But every time I would go to the toilet, I didn't have my phone. And I used to be the sort of person that was toilet time to pull out the phone like everybody else. A: oh yeah. R: And I realized that at first I was bored. Sometimes I even fell asleep a little. But then over the time I was there, it became sort of me time in my head. And I started to think again. And what I started thinking about was the first thing I really thought about was this device that was keeping me from doing any thinking of my own. And that while I agree the surveillance capitalism and the surveillance state that we're dealing with is problematic, the influences on my mind from the manipulation and propaganda, which is the word I'm looking for here engine that goes along with that is as big a problem and connected a problem. And I had found a moment outside of it. And I came back and I started really thinking about that. And I decided, first of all, I was going to keep the bathroom habit. And I have not brought a phone to the toilet since. So I no longer bring my phone to the bathroom. That is "me time" is what I call it. I say, "This is 'me time'". Now, here's the thing about "me time". If you're fairly smart or you've read a book about human beings and how they work after they eat, you know what I'm doing in there, roughly. I have closed a door between you and me. But if you guess or maybe you're terrible and you put your ear to the door and you listen, you probably have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing. And that's what privacy is. Privacy is that bathroom door. It's the simple human right to have a moment's peace, to think and to be apart, maybe for something embarrassing or unpleasant or shameful or maybe just to think and breathe for a moment. And I think this is a big deal, and we do not credit the value of it enough. It is separate. And this brings us back to the bigger point. It is separate from anonymity, which is, you know, disappearing into the crowd. I think when you become a public figure at any level, you're giving up anonymity and you have to set boundaries to protect your privacy. And the boundaries like you discussed is like, "What am I willing to give and not give? Where are those boundaries?" When I perform at an event, oftentimes in the performance contract is a line that says, "Oh, we have the right to use the video of you in any way we want and we have the right to use photos". There have been events where I have performed and I'm not allowed to use those photos. And they are. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: And sometimes, and I'm super proud of this, I have both been a part of and or created events where the entire collection of images, videos are all under public domain licenses, Creative Commons licenses, where they can be shared with the world. And I think that is tremendous because that gives a gift. It's scary because part of you is like "Oh, are they going to make a meme about me?" But the reality is, no, they're going to have access to it, to play with it. And it's so good. And I think what happens when you get into the performer seat, before you get to the privacy thing, you have to decide where your boundary is. For example, I noticed a change between younger performers and older performers. I'm an older performer. My generation, I throw a party. No phones. I mean, yeah, We have them in our pocket and we pull them out for a second, but we're in the room. We're just having a moment together because, well, we never get to do this. And if somebody does something stupid, we don't take a picture. Younger performers are taking a selfie to prove they were there and they were immediately putting it online. There's an immediacy to it. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: I respect the choice, but in my house, you ask first, you ask everybody in the room, "Are we okay with the photo?" "Yeah." Okay. Now we've all agreed. "No". Okay, step over here so I can take the damn photo. Okay. And we work it out. And the statement is, you're always in front of the camera, so you need a break. This is one of those rare moments where you get a break. And I think a lot of performers either accepted that they didn't have a choice or thought about it like we have, and they made the choice. I'm a big ardent believer that you have the right to have their privacy. I try to champion and I try to learn about it because I think all of the things that have changed my life came from moments of reflection where I thought for myself and I wasn't being observed. When I teach, I very often, one of my requests is that the cameras in the room be covered. We used to joke it was because we didn't want the liability of being recorded, me being yelling at someone, and it being recorded. But it's not about that. People seldom evolve or have breakthroughs when they're exhibiting performative behavior when they are performing for the tribe or being recorded. And I have watched, I've covered the camera and not said anything, and I have watched and seen people do better because subliminally, they knew whether or not they were being recorded. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: And I watched the change. So I became a big believer in you needing spaces where you can fail without long term consequence. George Burns said the whole purpose of vaudeville was somewhere to go and be bad. So when you got good, then you go on to the big show and later on to television. You need those little theaters where we're not recording everything you do. So you can go and do it and do it well when it will go on the permanent record was the implication. A: Yeah. R: And for my friend who wrote us this wonderful question which unpacked this enormous can of worms, how much of this is the issues being relevant and valid and how much of this is you dealing with your personal privacy and shame and embarrassment and fear of reprisal? Because if you're out there doing something lovely on the street, if I'm making a nice moment for people and someone captures that, they now know that I was there, Sure that's metadata. Sure. They now know that that performer was there from that company. It was on the marquee if I did really well, if I'm on stage, they already know. A: *Affirmative Noise* R: What is it that you're protecting in that case? So first I think you have to do that, and then what you're doing is the same thing you hear about privacy as a technology is that it's a threat model, which is to say you can't buy a jar of Privacy Paste and paint it on the door and be done. And it's always good from now on. It's about understanding what the ramifications of every decision you're making are. And for me, I stand up very loudly with everything but my home address, which I'm sure someone could dig and find and say, "hey, this is who I am. This is where I am. This is what I'm doing. This is what I'm about. And this is to the best of my ability, what I stand for". And the rest of the time I shut my mouth because I'm kind of a nervy person, but I think that I will stand up and protect everybody's chance to have the space to think and to breathe and to heal and to grow so they can do the great thing they want to do, hopefully in front of people. With the world we're in now, it happened faster than you think. I don't know if this person is young or older. It happened really fast. We knew it was coming. We screamed about it coming, but it happened really fast. And the behavior that says everything goes on the public record and there's nothing I can do about it. So I guess I'll just get into it. It became normalized so quickly. And I do think part of that is because most people in the mainstream world are not very technologically savvy, and it is encouraged to know less about these things. A: Oh, yeah and I remember decidedly, I remember hearing people with concerns that sounded completely outlandish because, you know, 10-15 years ago that were completely outlandish because there wasn't the technology backing it up. You couldn't do that. And then that changed. R: Sure. A: And so those same people who were incredibly nervy at one point R: Were ahead of the curve A: And then have totally changed their minds because enough people told them that that wasn't possible. R: Right. A: That now they don't feel like it is. R: What I will say as another thought on this is learn some tools that work for you. Realize that I made changes to adjust after that experience that eye opening experience over five years. The results of that were things which ultimately led me to leaving social media because I thought it was an unhealthy place. They were for me to start taking my privacy as something I take more seriously. And I never once took a breath and went, "Well, the damage is done. I ought to just deal with it". I said, "No, I'm going to make changes". And it does make you the odd person out. And in the world of performance, it very much makes you the odd person out because everyone is constantly broadcasting. I think there's value in performance, especially for performers to take a moment of quiet and to think, and I encourage you to do that. But I will say that I'm excited that someone asks us about privacy because it says we're not the only ones thinking about it, because sometimes when you care about technology and you care about privacy and you care about these things, you're written off as a nerdy weirdo or an eccentric or someone who is, you know, being reactionary or paranoid, those are all things I've heard about me. And I think it's really good that someone brings the conversation to the table in a relatively gentle way. I will say that if you are in the public, legally, we can take your picture. My advice to you, get out there and get your picture taken if you're a performer. I remember when we started a variety show, I was very scared of having my photo taken. In my art career. I walked around and Sean Penn is a reference you may or may not get. But Sean Penn was an actor who used to threaten paparazzi with a punch A: Oooh R: and made good on it enough times to where it was taken seriously. And I would say, oh, "I will Sean Penn you, if you don't get that camera away". I was a much different person and no one took my picture. So there's a bunch of years and no pictures. And then all of a sudden I found myself, "Oh, yeah, we're building a show and we're going to put all the media and the creative commons. We're going to ask people to put their cell phones away, but we're going to have professional photographers there, and they're going to get every good shot in the room. We're going to have a video camera pointed the whole time". And somewhere, It took three months before my brain caught up to the realization in developing this show that I was going to be on that stage every week having thousands of photos taken of me. And it was a real freak out. It was. It was this huge, scary thing where my every nuance would ultimately be captured over time. If you ever want to make a somewhat out of date 3D model of me, you could dig through this archive and do it easily. What a terrible idea. But the point is, I was talking with- A: You would have different facial hair. R: I would. I was talking with the producer, the co-producer of the show, and I was very scared of this. And she was also a musician and had struggled with some of the same struggles about body image and about identity image that I had. And not that I'm going to speak for her now, but we made this agreement. She did it. And it was another one of these things that I'm so grateful for. She looked at me, she said, I won't hide, deny, block, untag, or get rid of a single photo that's taken on me during the production of the show if you'll say you'll do it too. Just out of nowhere she said it. I said, "Okay". We shook hands on it, and that was it. And the next week, fifteen hundred photos of me went on the internet. Believe me, I don't love the way my butt looks. I don't love the way I look. But very quickly, you get over it because you got other things to think about. It's done. And that's not about privacy. That's about performance. That's about exposure therapy to the idea of being in the public eye. That is separate from privacy. Please note that all of those photos of me were in costume on a stage with good lighting by performers who care, photographers who care, rather, in a good setting. I mean, I'm sure some of those photos are terrible just because A: Statistics of photographs R: Statistics and you can only do so much correction. I know. But the point being, I think it's important if you're going to develop an opinion about your boundaries of privacy to understand what is your shame, vulnerability, weirdness stuff and what is your privacy concern stuff. Separate them out and really take a look at those two things, because I think that will give you a clearer view on how you need to build this magical word threat model, which can only be worked out for yourself about what is and isn't okay and what you will and won't stand for. So that's my advice to performers, is to go through that sort of get yourself in a position where that process happens and think about the ramifications of it, try to be in a position where you have some say in it, but you are going to be out there. Don't be afraid of that. Because the truth is, if you circle back to the beginning, all the people with the cameras, they just want souvenirs they want to have a moment where they get to take you home with them. And maybe that's not actually how memory works, but they're trying to connect and have proof that they connected, a validation of that. So let them have it. Just be good at your job while you do it. A: Yeah. I will note that my clown personas don't really get what's going on with cameras. R: Oh, yeah. A: I sort of sort of reduced my knowledge of what's going on to very much like it is a camera and not a cell phone. Like, this is a film camera that somebody is going to go home and like, R: Keep it in the moment, A: Put it in their own little scrapbook that only they're going to see. I do have to reframe it that way for myself. R: Good. A: Because I can't be thinking about everywhere else is going. R: I will give you one great piece of advice. This is a performer's tip, so I've literally suggested you put yourself in a perilous situation where you might look bad. I picked this up from Marie, and it's so good. If you're posing for a lot of photos, keep making new faces. Don't just put a smile on and hold it till it's gone. Because what happens is as your face relaxes into it, your eyes slack, your face slack, and you look like you don't care. You look dead, you look scary, you look mean. All these things start happening. But if you make a face and then you make another face and you make another face, they're always alive. And I was like, how are you doing that? She says, "I just keep making weird faces". And I tried it and it's gold. It's the best tip in the world. If you have to have a lot of photos taken of you, just keep making new faces. Some will work, some won't. But you're never going to have that terrible slack, fear face that you don't want. A: All right. R: Okay. So that we've covered privacy and we've covered conflicts, images and all that. I hope you do well. And good luck, dear friend. Next question. A: Next question. R: Wait, hold on. I'm positioning the hat for maximum retrieval. A: Okay. R: Okay. A: "How many packs of ramen would fit in that closet if it were emptied of all other things?" R: Well, first of all, I got to say it's an interestingly food heavy episode. A: It is. R: It is a weirdly food heavy episode. But let me do a little quick figuring here. If you assume length width height.. (trails off) I'm going to have to estimate on the size of the A: size of the ramen packet. R: Is that about this big? A: I think it's a little smaller than that. R: A little smaller, so about there? You assume that they're about that thick, right? A: About yeah, they do differ. So it's a little bit tricky. R: So, anyway. *mutters math* 7215. A: ish? R: ish. A: All right. R: Yeah.7215- A: Yeah, yeah. Looking at it, I think that's probably, probably about right. R: Yeah. 7215 packs of ramen, assuming a standardized size of individual ramen packet. A: Yes. R: All right. Well, let me, should I ask you the same question? "How many packs of ramen do you think would fit in the closet?" And please understand that my numbers assume that the closet was empty and the packets were standardized and this cow is spherical. A: I think you're right. I think it's about 7,215. R: Well, there you go. That was quick. A: Yeah. R: Next question. Next question. Next question. A: Next question. There is not a next question. R: What? A: That is the bottom of the stack and not just the bottom of the stack for today. That is the bottom of the stack. R: Friends, we did it. A: We did. R: We did it. A: Yes. R: We answered every questions our friends asked. A: We answered all of the questions that we currently know about. Yes. R: Wow. That's a lot of questions. That is so much curiosity. A: It is. And it was wonderful. R: I love it. A: And I think that means this is a wrap on season one. R: We do seasons now. A: Well, I cannot- See, here's the thing. R: Yeah, A: You listening, lovely microphone. R: Not me. The microphone. Yeah. Got it. A: Lovely microphone, may have asked us an additional question that we have not answered because this is somewhat time shifted R: Because we are currently in the future, everything is fine. A: So if you have asked us a question which we have not answered due to us currently reaching the bottom of our stack R: And living in the future, A: We are holding on to that question. We are continuing to collect the questions. R: Right. A: And we have some other things, some other projects coming up. R: We do, some new stuff and we're going to work on that. A: So we're going to work on that for a while. And then we will come back R: With another stack A: For season two R: of "Two Clowns in a Closet". A: So for now, I'd like to say thank you to you. R: Oh, thanks. You're welcome. A: And thank you to all of you because this has been a wonderful time. I've really enjoyed this. R: It was more fun than I expected. You know, when we started, I thought, "Okay, we'll do this"- because when we sat down to do it I was like "Yeah. It'll go one or two. We'll do it once or twice". And the next thing I know, you came in to sit down with me and you showed me the stack of questions and I realized this is going to be a thing we're going to be doing A: For a while. R: For a while. It's going to be a big part of our lives. And it does take a lot of time because of the job of transcribing and creating all the show notes and to do it the way we want to do it. A: Yeah. Because I wouldn't want it to be anything less R: No, of course not. That's not the point. But I'm really excited that we did it that way and I'm glad that it went well and it's nice to finish something rather than just letting it end. It's nice to finish something and go, but even better than finishing we finished the first season, A: Yes. R: Which gives you sort of this optimistic little bubble that maybe there's a second- don't say it but maybe. That's a nice feeling. A: It's a lovely feeling. And, I mean, I was kind of intimidated by that stack, to be honest, looking at the whole stack. So I am very excited that we have actually gotten to the bottom of it. R: I give you a piece of advice that I think is valid for anybody working on a project bigger than they know what to do with. You know the best way to eat an elephant, right? A: No. R: One bite at a time. Just like this. You're just nibble away at it. However, do you know what's even better than that? A: Not eating an elephant? R: Correct. Having snacks with an elephant. Way better. A: Do elephants like popcorn? R: They like carrots, more than you'd think. They like carrots. A: I like carrots. R: See? You could be an elephant. Just keep chipping away at it. Eat your carrots. You'll get there. A: All right. R: All right. And in the meantime, everybody, take a deep breath. Do something silly and thank you again for joining us in the closet. We'll see you next time. * sound of door opening*