----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 19 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2024-03-01 ----------------------------------- R: Liam! L: Yes? R: Wait, I forgot to close the door first. Now it doesn't make any sense. L: Yeah *Door Slam* *theme music plays* R: Is that? It might have been too loud, I don't know. Was that too much? L: No R: No? No? Alright. I don't want to be like a slam. *Door closes* R: feels rude. That- see that was satisfying L: *Affirmative Noise* R: And you're way over there, though, I've got to make it over there. L: Yeah, you're gonna wanna come and join me over here. R: We moved from the other spot. L: Of course R: Alright L: There are new places R: I know L: We can test things out. R: Same old faces, new places. That's really nice. I wonder if I swoop into my volume now. Hello my dear friend, and hello to you my dear friends. We're here. L: We are. R: It's amazing. It feels so good. I'm sitting in an actual chair. L: At- at- at a table. R: A table and a, like a, I'm gonna hit it. Even though, that- this may be loud *3 loud knocks* R: A table and *3 slightly more muted knocks* R: A chair, in a room that is not at all closet-y L: No, it's not a closet. R: Despite our best intentions, we have come all this way and um, we're here now. Which is fine. This is the workshop. L: Yep R: and we're working on things. L: Yes we are. R: So that's good L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Do you feel like- you seem tight. Do you need a breath? L: *Inhales* R: Something? A mint? L: *Exhales* R: *Coughs* I'm kidding. L: *laughs* R: It's a good joke. L: It is a good joke. R: It's a good joke. L: I'd have a mint. R: You have a mint. L: I would have a mint R: but you can't L: but I can't. R: We have denied you mints. Friends, we have denied Liam mints. L: Well, I'm experimenting with fasting so- R: Not all the time though. L: No, intermittently. R: If you did it all the time you just be fasting, I assume L: Very hungry. R: Yeah. Mean, I'd imagine after a certain point. To your credit, you haven't gotten mean once. L: I haven't even felt bad really. R: Well, I'm glad it's going well for you. L: Which is a surprise R: Do you have- do you have like, resources and things for that? I know it's not really germane to what we do here, which is faff about, but L: I've- I've gotten some things that I've looked into it with. Yeah. R: Yeah? Well, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: if you'd like, maybe we can put them in the show notes. L: We could R: We might. L: Maybe we shall. R: Maybe we shall. That's a good thought. I feel like we're going already. L: It does feel like it. I think- R: We're just- L: intended to do Both: a sound check. R: Have we gone- but is that us going too fas- the question is always because I go too fast. L: What I will say, R: You will say L: Is that we failed to introduce the show. R: Oh, well, maybe we can loop back around. L: Because see, we wanted to make sure we closed the door. R: Right L: So that you could talk about having come all the way from over there into here. R: Right. I- what I L: For this episode of * table thump* R: Two Clowns in a Closet L: and now we've done it. R: That was really- that was really nice, kind of L: We switched it up a little bit. R: You made it smooth. Friends, I want to take a moment to welcome you all. It's really a good week for me to be doing this because I've gotten a lot of messages from friends who- who say that we're keeping them company in their ears. They all say it same way. They say "I've put you in my ear". They don't say "I'm listening to your podcast." They never say that. They always say "I've put you my ears" or "I'm taking you with me on a walk" and I love it. It's my favorite part. L: It's fantastic. Something that's always a little bit confusing for me R: yeah? L: is that I have some other forms of media that they could be putting in their ears. Typically they mean the podcast. R: Do you sell Q-tips on the side or little cotton swabs? L: *laughs* R: What are you saying? I feel like I- I've given- L: No, I have a- I have some videos R: You do L: with me singing and doing some other stuff. R: You're just here the front half of this schilling your work now. L: *laughs* R: Is that what's happening? L: It was not intending to shill but it is something that I- that I do. R: It is something you do L: and that is never what people are talking about when they say that they've put me in their ears to take us on a walk. R: I have a theory about it and this is what I wanted to- What I wanted to open with, if I'm opening with anything. L: Okay R: Um- the thing is, when you- when you sing or when you talk about things, you're- you're sharing a really good idea. Whether that is a polished piece of performance or at whether that is you talking about something specific and this- this- this is conversational. People know three things about what we're doing here. One, nothing we do is gonna be too real world or too serious. Two, no matter what we do, we're going to be pretty mellow about it and Three, it's not that important. I don't want to say that to take away from what we're doing, 'cause what I think we're doing is really good and useful and people are enjoying it but it's not critical information. L: Oh yeah, yeah. R: It's comfort food L: you don't need to take- you don't need to take notes. R: It's comfort food. L: Yeah R: and in fact we take notes for you because we have taken show notes and transcriptions. L: Yup. R: So this, I think the reason why they say they put this in their ears and go is because they feel like- I'm- I'm feeling rude, you, listeners, and please tell me if I'm wrong, feel like you can take us with a- with you and there's not a lot of pressure. I think that's what it is. L: That lines up with what I've heard. R: So that, I gonna say, as a person who normally stands on stage and essentially does the idiot's version of "Look at me. Look at me. Look at me." is so- it's so exciting and comforting to know that I'm just, sometimes I'm just keeping people company and I think that's- *sigh* that's good. L: Yeah R: and I want- I was hoping I would have an option and here I am saying- I wanted to say I'm very grateful for that because even when we have taken a- a pretty substantial break and we've had to slow down the production of this, we're getting- we're still hearing from people. We're still hearing what I- what I'd always hoped, which was a conversation. This isn't just us shouting into the ether. We're having our half of the conversation and then people bring it back to us and they give us theirs L: and I love that- I love that the- the- the no pressure thing? means that we have people who are in our lives, who are friends, who are just now starting to listen to the second season or who are still part way through the first season. R: Sure L: and we have people who are just discovering it and listening to the first season and trying to figure out who your co-host is. *laughs* R: There is that. Because I did have a- you know, I- I did have a mid season- you know mid-show-series replacement, as it were. L: Yes and- R: Brought to you by life choices and the letter T. L: Ah, R: Life choices isn't right. L: Yeah, life choices isn't right. R: Life discoveries. L: Life discoveries is far more accurate. R: Ah, you see, this is why this should be a soundcheck. If it was a soundcheck instead of us just going for it I could fix that but now, it's just going. L: Now you're here R: there we are L: having- having taken a misstep and then moved on. R: The clown's job is to stumble and folly. I will accept my fate. L: but I think one of the things I really enjoy is that people- I- I don't like that people apologize, but I like that they feel like they can take this at their own pace. R: What do they apologize to you for? L: I have- I have gotten apologies for the fact that people aren't up to date on the podcast. R: Oh good heavens, we're so slow at it, they should be slow too. L: Yeah, I'm like, "No, the longer it takes you to get through it, the more time I have to put more out there." R: I think- I think the best part about this, because we have worked pretty hard, friends, to- to make sure this isn't connected to any particular time. There are things that are going on, you know, we talked about L: oh yeah, R: your transition, we've talked about us moving. There are things that are definitely going on, but the idea is they are little time capsules. L: Yeah. R: and I will- we'll make sure we context things such that you can come to them at your own pace and I think that's- that's how they should be taken. I don't- I don't believe I want to create such rules. Now please ignore me and do this however you want because I don't want to create rules on how the thing should be done. L: I like that it's flexible. R: Yeah L: I think that's- I mean that's one of the reason rss feeds are great R: Sure L: generally and that's one of the reasons- I've- I've really fallen in love with taking media at my own pace so I love getting to hear that other people are doing the same. R: You know, life is something of a fire hose these days. Things are always coming at you and I love that we are creating things, we're cultivating things, we're finding things for ourselves that we're taking at a slower pace, and a gentler pace and I think that's good for everyone. So I'm- I'm- I'm glad for that. I'm also glad that one of the things we seem to do, when we slow down, both you and I, dear friend, and you listening, we- we play more when we slow down. We remember this is- this is quite silly. Where it's the- it's the middle of the night. We're sitting in a- at a little table in the back of a theater and, you know, we've got that stack of index cards that I'm so excited about because when I run out of things to say, we've got 'em. L: I've got cards! R: We've got cards. We're- we're- we're capable of being, you know, just playful because we can slow down and play and I- I love that these sorts of things that slow you down they- they give you that opportunity to- your mind wanders a little and you go "Oh, what if? What if this? What if that?" that curiosity I think is so important and so I'm glad if we encourage that at all and if you're finding it, that's good, and if not, well, you know, maybe L: That's okay too R: You like listening to- to weird people ramble and I think that has value *laughs* L: Good. Otherwise- R: What's the point? L: What would be the point of us being here? R: I just realized we fixed it L: What did we fix? R: Last episode we were- I- and it was all me, we were so focused on getting to it and getting into it and having the- the rhythm of it, and it's going to be different L: Yeah R: and I think now, we've done the thing. We rambled a bit. We've- we've sat down. We've said hello. We've said what's- what's immediately in our mind and now we're here and I'm here and it's good and I love that. So we can kill the thing and now do it for real? No I'm kidding, let's just keep going. L: No, of course let's keep going. R: I think the best part about this thing continues to be that we don't terribly edit. L: No we just sort of clean up the audio so R: Yeah we- L: it's more pleasant for people to listen to. R: Which we still apologize for because we are- we do not have a proper recording set up yet and so we're doing this and hoping that we can clean it up enough to make it a palatable experience. Our first two seasons we were lucky enough to be trapped in a very small closet and that made for very good audio. Now we're experiencing the joys of being in a big echo-y building and you're getting near the acoustics of the other side of the theater and soon you'll hear another spot in the building and we'll tell you about that. So I think that's good. L: I think that's good too and I'm excited to experiment. R: Speaking of experiments, the other thing that's going on right now L: What? R: Well, friends, and I'm so glad you reminded me. I'm so glad you said that 'experiment' word. Friends, you'll notice that this episode of the podcast's logo, that normally shows up in your- in your listening software looks different. It looks weird and that's good. We, last season, encouraged our music making friends to create some- some versions of our theme song, remixes of our theme song and this season we invited are more visually creative friends to- to do some things with images and what you're looking at when you're- when you looking at- you can look at it while you're listening as long as you're not driving a car, if so, please wait till later. Uh- people do. L: Yeah R: Ah- but you- you're looking at- you're looking at one of our friends ah- pieces of creative work that was based on- based on that challenge and if you want to do that, you can do one and send us one. We have a few in the queue for the next few episodes but we certainly would love to see more. Yeah I just- I'm excited about that because it's- I love the fact we were talking a moment ago about encouraging people to play L: Yes R: and I love that people are playing with our stuff. It's not so sacred or solemn or important that they're not remixing it or adapting it and we put it under licenses explicitly for that purpose. So the idea that people are in fact doing that, to me, means I'm doing my job. If I'm encouraging you to play, I'm doing my job. So play with what you think two clowns in a closet or even two clowns in a big old building might look like and send it to us so we can use it to share with our friends and- and- L: and shout you out. R: Yeah, absolutely check the show notes because this episode's artist, who we haven't picked yet because we have that terrible job of having to go through all of our friends and say who goes first. We will mention who that is at the end of the episode and I'm not going to pretend that I've already decided. L: Are we going to mention it in the episode or are we going to just put it in the show notes? R: Oh L: Because this is our second episode, so in discovering who goes first we're actually talking about who goes second by this time. R: Unless we don't do one. Oh, good point. You make a good point. Is this first or second? This- L: Well we mentioned it in the last episode. R: We did. This is second. You're just here to keep me on track, aren't you? L: It is one of the things I try to do. R: One of your many- many valuable and useful and lovingly applied skills because I walked in here tabula rasa with nothing in my head. Which was great because I'm calm. L: Oh it's perfect R: but it's problematic because I'm lost. So yes, this is the second and we didn't mention the first. L: We did mention the first. R: Did we? L: We mentioned this challenge and we said that that somebody's artwork was going to be- R: but we didn't say who it was L: there but we didn't say who it was because we hadn't decided yet R: Well then we should just continue that trend and make people look at the show notes. L: Yes, so look at the show notes R: On your own time, if you want, please don't feel stressed out about that L: To see some different art and who it's from. R: Yes. We've done it. L: Well done. R: That- it's like a bunch of ah- building keeping. We don't have a house. L: It's a building. R: Exactly, but it's also a home. L: It is a home R: and it's lovely, and it had a bunch of stuff we had to talk about L: Yes it did. R: It did and bookcases right over there. L: So yes, a little bit of home keeping. R: Wow, you're just a zen master today. L: I wouldn't say that. R: You're so great L: I'm calm R: It's the fasting, isn't it? L: It might be, I'm not sure. R: Well, I'll play off it and I promise I will not bring contrast. *laughs evilly* *starts coughing* keep going. L: I don't know that I believe that promise, but- R: I- L: we'll give it a go. R: That's why I went for the very, very terrible evil laugh. How'd that play? I think it did. L: It was certainly something. R: It was a thing that was some of that thing. Both: Yes R: thereby something L: Shall I start with the questions? R: Are we diving in? Is this it? L: That's what I'm asking you. R: Are we in a ramble ready, everyone settled, has everyone gotten where they need to? Yeah. L: I think so. R: I feel- L: We've done the- we've done the general introduction. R: Yeah L: We've checked in about relevant things for our friends to know. R: Yes, that we love you. L: We've said thank yous. R: That we love you. L: We've said that we love you. R: It's important to say L: Which we do. R: We have to say it every now and then, or we'll forget, to say it. L: That's true. R: We're always going to feel it L: and so I think, yeah, the next thing would be to read one of the questions off the cards. R: It's such a big moment. It's the first question here. L: I know. R: This carefully selected question, while it is not the first episode of the podcast or anything, it is the first question card you're reading in this hallowed, ridiculous place. L: *laughs* Yes. R: I can't say hallowed and take it seriously because L: I was looking at the lighting and I'm like "Yes, it's very- very deliberate overhead lighting" *silence* L: Halo-ed, hallowed. R: Oh, I see what you did there. I was trying to follow you because it's L: I went for a pun. R: You did. It's an auditory medium, useful note. L: That's why I clarified. R: Did you though? L: I think so R: I hope so. Friends, tell us if Liam is making any sense *laughs* 'cause I don't know. L: I don't know either. R: I'm not qualified. So the first question. L: So the first question R: Of the podcast L: of this season of the podcast. R: Do you know the name of the podcast? We've covered it, but you remember it? L: "Two Clowns In A Closet" R: It just it felt wrong to not hear you say it. L: but in a theater workshop space, not a closet, R: Is- L: is R: Are you- are you settled and ready? L: Yeah. R: *laughs* L: I'm settled and ready! R: You want to get on with it? *laughs* L: Sure. R: Very serious theatrical professionals. L: *laughs* R: Read the question *laughs* L: Sure! R: Okay L: Okay, the question. R: The quest- for real. L: The question is, "Asking for clarification on the first question from episode fifteen" I'm so excited that somebody wants clarification on something R: People listened! You really listened! I- I- I'm getting teared up. L: So, "Asking for clarification on the first question from episode fifteen. If you were doing a show at a Doctor Who convention, would you have additional leeway on pop culture references, given what you can expect the audience to know? Or is that just lazy? R: Okay. So I'm reaching back in my brain and remembering the question. Was- I know- Oh, we talked about "Almost Five" and we talked about the Doctor Who sketch. Okay I'm on the page. L: And pop culture references in general R: pop culture in general, okay. Yes, please see our previous work. Okay, I'm caught up. I caught up. Do I think it's just lazy? I think it's shorthand. Which may or may not be lazy depending on how it's applied, because if we're all on the same page already, then maybe it's okay to st- skip ahead. The rule is always been, in my mind, we all show up with nothing and we make sure we're communicating before we- you know, correctly, before we try to say anything important then we can say something important and after that we can say something ridiculous. If we've all sort of short handed our way there then maybe we share a common language and we can go for that because we know it, but I know the thing that I always think about and I'm sure I said is don't exclude your audience. Don't exclude your friends. So I'm going to stay on that and say it's murky country. I would be incredibly careful if I was writing comedy and I was writing that. I think about that and at the same time some of the best stuff I've ever done has been taking something a little more universal and doing what I can to dial it into the room. I mean, I can- I can think of a bunch of examples of "Hey, I'm doing a show and how can I make this really about the room I'm in without changing my own message?" and I look for those things because I think it connects you well to the room. So, I think I come down- I come down to I would try to avoid that because shorthand means you're not writing everything down long hand. I think where- L: Okay R: I think that's where I take that. L: Okay. R: I think that's where I take that. L: Alright. R: Alright, how about you? Clarification on a previous episode- you want me to read the whole card to you, so you can be properly primed? L: That- that is- the- the way that- that this goes. Yes. R: You know, as I get older I'm just grateful for your very large hand writing. "Asking for clarification on the first question from episode fifteen, if you were doing a show a Doctor Who convention, Who would you have- would you have a diff-" I just flubbed the question because of your handwriting. "Would you have additional leeway on pop culture references given y-" I'm getting blind. It's- it's the glasses isn't it? L: I don't know if it's the glasses, these are different cards. My handwriting size is slightly different. R: It's all different, I know. L: We found these cards here. They're in color. R: That's part of it L: And they have- and the other ones we didn't have R: Lines L: lines on them. R: That's the whole thing feels different. *whispers* Why are we talking so much about the cards instead of the content? L: Because you couldn't read the question. R: Oh well, we're- we're then we're vamping well, but what do you think? Do you think it's lazy? L: So the- the questions specifically said "If we had a show" R: "If we had a show", within the context of a show. L: So within the context of a show, I wouldn't say it's lazy. I would say it has all of the hazards that we talked about in that episode. That the exclusion, that's the- um- the exclusion, alienation, the separation between you and your audience R: *Affirmative Noise L: and losing- losing a couple of people here and there which eventually makes you feel very disconnected with everybody. R: An audience is an organism, you know. L: Yeah, it doesn't do well when R: if you split L: when pieces get taken away. Um, however, one of the things that this makes me think about is that at a Doctor Who convention, or at a convention when you're looking at many different types of convention R: Sure L: having a show is one of the very- is a very small part of what's going to happen at a convention and if I think about applying some comedy to say a panel at a convention, where you are talking about a topic that's a different game R: because everybody's already playing the same game. L: So that is not the game of "We've sat down to watch a show" R: Oohmn L: That's the game of "I'm here because I'm interested in this particular topic panel" Where you've read a small brief and you know, in theory, what you're getting into. Which means you have some idea of either this is gonna be brand new material to you or this is going to be material you already have some sense of and you're getting some additional spin on or information about. If you're running a panel at a Doctor Who convention making a joke that references something that's canonically going on in Doctor Who, I think that's expected of that medium. I think that is part of the game that is "convention panel" R: Because you're- because you're not in a show, you're in a panel you have a shared con- again we're back to shared context. L: It's a shared context. R: It's a good take. L: So I think that the something to be- that something to always keep in mind when we're talking about the expectations we have as clowns and what we do in clown performance, that is not necessarily applicable in every context, in every form of interaction or even ah- performance, everything of we're going on onstage your doing something for an audience. I think many of the things we talk about our applicable to most forms of performance but definitely not all and everything has an exception to a rule. I still wouldn't bring a show that was a clown show to a convention and take too many of those shorthand risks. R: Well, otherwise you're not bring anything new, you're just being clever. L: But I think that there are definitely places where those things are still- I don't even know- I know that we kind of indicated that they aren't funny in and of themselves in the last episode when we talked about this and I think that that's true, but they are something that helps unify a group and that's part of why they're so dangerous when it comes to creating feelings of exclusion, but they do cause that sensation. They do remind us "Do you remember where you were when you watched that episode and the feelings you had because I also had similar feelings at that time when I experienced that" R: Or- and I'm thinking L: Or different ones. R: I was thinking about the idea of the poetic clown, the clown where you don't put too much information out there but you put a feeling out there and everybody has their own connections and experiences relating to that feeling. L: And so R: I think you're- I think you're in an interesting area there. L: So there are definitely times where it makes sense to invoke that. R: Hmn L: I don't think that's likely to be an- a clown show, because I think it's a little too specific, even in the context of "it's a convention" because frankly, you go into a Doctor Who convention R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Who's a fan of old Who? Who's a fan of New Who? Who's a fan- Who's seen what? Because not everybody's seen everything. R: Sure L: Who got dragged here by their kids and the last time they saw the Doctor he was wearing a scarf and R: *giggles* L: their kid is going on about how the Doctor's a woman now. I know at this point with even moved past that actress, but like, the kids are going on about that the dad- Dad or Mom or whoever is coming along for the ride. If we can keep them from feeling excluded R: Bonus L: That's a good thing. R: I think what's interesting is the idea the you're- you're bringing that- rather than me- I'm thinking about it as a framework. 'Cause whenever I think about the clown on stage I think about the idea that the clown, if the clown is playing say a cowboy in an old western, then what we are seeing is we were seeing that clown be a cowboy in an old western and it becomes about that clown's experience of the old western tropes. L: Yes R: and you've done is somewhat inverted that because now what you're talking about is this pop culture idea is the shared, more complex idea, and we're all talking about our various connections to it. I think what may actually happen is that gets harder to write for. With- L: Yes R: Without just saying "Hey we did the thing" because I think the worst- the worst of- of weak comedy writing very often is "Look I'm pointing at of the pop culture thing and see how funny I am because I mentioned the pop culture thing?" I hate that. L: yeah, see, that doesn't work. R: No. So the idea- but the idea of it both being a shared- shared context and shared language and as well us- a much more complex shared- set of shared experiences is- is an interesting- an interesting take. L: Yeah, so I'd say be careful with it but there are contexts where it does serve a purpose. I don't know if that purpose is comedy. R: I would like to point out one thing. If you are hosting a Doctor Who themed convention and you'd like a clown show there, despite the fact that we've sort of looked down on it a little bit as a concept in this conversation, I would totally do it. L: Oh, I never said I wouldn't bring a clown show to a Doctor Who convention. R: I already have material. L: I said I would limit how many pop culture related jokes I was putting in that. R: Well, check one off because I've got- I got a- one that worked. L: Okay R: I got a laugh. L: Okay R: So we have to do it. I think we sank the question. L: I think that's- I think that's the answer. R: That was a heck of a question to start off with. L: Yes it was. R: Thank you for that so much. So, I'm going to read one correctly, I hope. L: I hope so. R: After butchering my first attempt *table slapping sound* slapping it on the table. Oh! Are you ready? L: Yes R: "If you were asked to construct a new show combining clowning practice with one different medium, practice, or practitioner of art, what would you do- what do you think of?" L: Wow. So the first thing that pops into my mind is magic. R: As in L: Is magicians. R: Stage magic? L: Stage magic. R: Interesting. L: I am not sure why. The question is "What do you think of?" and that is what I think of. Um, I don't know how I would even feel about that. That would definitely- That would probably be us bringing in somebody who is a diff- a practitioner of. R: I am not a magician L: Um, we've had a lot of conversations, I don't know if we've had one on this podcast, we've now gotten to the point where I've lost track of what we've talked about. R: Good L: Um, about how magicians and clowns use a lot of the same skills in some opposite ways. R: Very much so. L: And I think it's an interesting thing to juxtapose. I don't have a fully fleshed out idea of where I would want to go with that. R: But magic and- magic and comedy. Magic and clown. L: Magic and clown. R: Doesn't have to be comedy L: I'm apparently interested in, and if you had asked me a couple of months ago I probably couldn't have told you that that was a thing I was interested in, but when asked now R: I've never- I've never heard you talk about theatrical magic. L: That's what's coming to mind. R: I've never heard you talk about theatrical magic before. That's fascinating. Look what you've inspired friends, Liam has a new idea brewing. L: We'll see where it goes. R: I don't know L: If it goes anywhere R: Do- do you think- I'm curious I'm just going to get this on the record L: Okay R: When- when someone says "Combine" and you have this thought of magic, do you think little small magic, or do you think like big stage illusions? L: A little bit of both. R: Okay, okay. L: I think I might be thinking about the stuff that's somewhere between those two. R: Okay. L: There is stuff that somewhere R: Sure L: between those two R: Sure. I find it weird because I've- I've always- I've always worked with magicians, I've never done magic myself. Always worked with magicians and while, again, we have a lot of shared concepts that we approach differently, what we do up there is so different. L: It's so different, we've- so we have done some interstitial between magic performers- R: Oh absolutely L: work and maybe that's what's happening is that my brain is going R: Just want more stage time. *laughs* L: My- my brain is going "it's interesting to see the clowns filling in the gaps between a series of magicians" I've- I've- I've been a part of that, I've seen some of that. It's interesting. R: Yeah L: and I think maybe I'm interested in seeing what happens when you turn it a bit on it's head and you have- now, interestingly I don't know if it's possible to put a magician in as interstitial between clowns because clowns do interstitials so well and magicians do acts, I think. R: I have seen examples of it done and I think it is possible. I've seen examples of it done. L: but that is interesting to me and the idea, so frequently the clown is the avatar for the audience, they are the concept of the "everyman" which is a terrible gendered word but they are that concept and people echo themselves onto the clown when they're watching and so one of the things that is frequently done is you take- you take the clown and now you take the clown and they are in the old west or they are in a western and we see how that plays out. Like, one of the things you do is you take the clown and you drop them into somebody's world and you see how they interact. R: So- L: but what happens when you take a magician and you drop them into the clowns world? R: Oh L: because I've seen what happens when you drop the clown into the magician's world R: Yeah Avner Eisenberg, there's so much stage magic in his show. L: So maybe it's that I haven't actually Avner's show and R: I was just wondering L: And I should. R: If you have not seen it, maybe you should. L: I've seen parts of it. So, maybe I should go and- and investigate more of that but it is coming to mind. So that's that's what's- that's what's playing in my head. R: Well, we will add that to your homework list because it's marvelous. Also check out Avner, Avner's marvelous. Heck of a teacher L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Also heck of a performer. I've laughed, learned, and- and suffered at his *inhale* at his wisdom L: *laughs* R: More than once. He actually put me on the floor once. L: Oh? R: He was- he was demonstrating Aikido in between classes and he grabbed my hand and he twisted and he threw me into the floor- and he's you know, he's an old man but he's a giant and he threw me into the floor like it was nothing. I'm like "I got this" and I started fighting against him as I'm going down. He goes "You will either have to go with it or your arm will break" and he just it as calm as that. As kind as that. L: Because it's- it's simply the facts of how Aikido works. R: Right, but also it was this deeply necessary, important lesson that I needed at the time because at that point, which was a long time ago, I was approaching everything like a fist and I was getting nowhere and it was "You have to find another way, because you're going to break your arm" and it was like "Oh, you had to throw me on the floor in front of a lot of people to teach me that, because that's what I needed, but it totally landed". Heck of a teacher. L: So R: So L: "If you were asked to construct a new show combining clowning practice with one different medium, practice, or practitioner of art. What do you think of?" R: Without bragging, I have chased this particular dragon for very long time because of my love of variety, and, and like classic when I say 'burlesque' I mean in the classic sense of a bunch of different types of variety acts coming together for an evening and not a whole evening of any one thing L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and because of that, along the way you experiment with everything. Magic, and dance, and music and the thing what the clown brings to the stage, the humanity along with all those things. I have chased that a lot. We've had live painters in shows, which I adored. We've had D.J.'s. Anything we could think of to try, but there's one that comes to mind that I've never gotten into in a way that I found satisfying. L: Okay R: So it- it is no surprise to anyone who- who listens to us, I'm a geek. I'm a- I'm a technology enthusiast. I like computers and I like gadgets and I like, you know, stuff the does- that goes boop. L: Yes R: I- I like stuff that goes boop, and I've always had this idea, there's a really specific area- much, much of technology, to be fair, frustrates me for some very real world reasons, but there's a fascinating place at the edge of user interface and user that there's- there's an old joke that is "Problem exists between keyboard and chair" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and if- there's a- and you have to realize, when you talk about clown, you talk about stupidity. Stupidity is a gold mine because that's where material comes from. L: Yes R: That ignorance, that clumsiness, that uncomfortableness, all of those things come together and give us just so much information. I have always thought the area where technology and humans meet is fascinating and I've written notes after notes after notes and I've never struck the gold of "Yeah, that's the- the bit I want to try doing" so I'm still looking for it but I absolutely want to figure out a way and I say this where- I don't like to have, you know, I always teach and I always say, like in a show I don't want a gag with a smartphone or a computer because that's going to make people think of real life L: Yeah R: because that's where we live now. So it's not that. And I have a lot to say about the dystopia of technology and big data on all these things. It's probably more over there but I have to find a way to do that without being really angry L: Hmmmn R: because otherwise I'm going to separate my audience into people who agree with me and want to help me burn down things and people who don't get it, and that's a rough place to be. I mean I think it's an important conversation but if I'm trying to unify an audience towards- towards a comment or a concept, I don't think I achieve it by by splitting people up and getting them riled up in that particular way. L: Yeah R: but that "We are human despite all this, we are human inside all of this, what is that exploration?" fascinates me and I'm really interested in trying to find some way to bring that into the work while keeping the sort of timeless charm, because one of the things I love about clown, I mean, you can watch a Chaplain film right now- if you watched "Modern Times" right now, other then some visual iconography needs to be updated, it's the same story. It still works. L: It still works. R: and because of that I think there's- there's a real place to tell these kind of stories and that timelessness of the- of the clown is such an interesting and useful tool. The clown shows up and because- and I think it's because they're somewhere between an innocent and a foreigner they don't really have a comfort with it. L: Yes R: And so, to me it's really interesting to try to- to try to play around with that and one of the things that I was so gifted with early on in us building things, and you were there for some of it- L: *Affirmative Noise* R: When we were working on Open Stage I wanted to empower the techs, and so I said "I don't know- I don't know tech. I don't know how tech theater works. You guys have to do that, I have to- and it was because I needed to focus on the creative direction of the show L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and so it became a reputation that I didn't understand technology L: Yes R: And therefore my relationship with it was completely, fascinatingly different. I think this probably really planted those- the seed of this idea in my mind which was I wasn't allowed to adjust a microphone because I would break it, so someone would come on stage in a huff and adjust it for me and then walk off again. It became a gag and it was so rife with material, that there's this bumbling idiot who is ostensibly in charge, that character L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and we know if we go back in time, we have the boss who didn't get a computer because he had a secretary. That's a terrible monster but somewhere between those two extremes is a really interesting character that's lost. L: Yeah R: and that is so interesting to me from a creative space because whenever you're- whenever you're lost you have the chance for a journey. Or- or you have a chance to just sit there and feel it and I think those places are really interesting. So I think for the purposes of- of like, what I would like to bring to a show, is try to find the right context to bring technology in without taking the audience out because I think whenever we think of our phones, whenever we think of the connected world, we leave the room we're in. So it's finding that. L: Oh yeah, 'cause- 'cause all of the notifications go off in the back of our head, whether they're there or not. R: Correct and so I think I'm looking for the way to bring the concept of that human interface, that cybernetic interface to technology into the conversation without losing your audience to all these various things, which are important conversations to have but keep them there long enough to have a chance to have them. Haven't figured out how to do it but if I have to- if you- if you have to nail me to one idea, that's the one I go to first. L: All right R: Yeah L: Yeah, cool R: Thanks for that question. L: Yeah, that was a great one. R: We- we just- we just like piloted- if we can put those two ideas together we've piloted one really good show. Or- L: You're not wrong R: we take them apart and we do two mediocre shows and then we don't have to think for a while. Love that idea. L: *Laughs* Either way's an option. R: True L: So, the next question, R: The next question L: "If you were portrayed in a children's cartoon, what species of cartoon animal would you be?" R: Okay, first, dear furry friends I love you all very much and I am amongst you but I am not one of you and we have to stop having this conversation. *Laughs* We just- we have to stop having it because it keeps coming up. I'm not offended by it. I'm not bothered by it. I just don't understand it because it's not me. My fursona is a human being and not a very smart one. So I don't know how to answer this other than than to say that I am essentially an orangutan wearing pants. So I'm gonna have to go with an orangutan. Which now that I imagine me as an orangutan as a cartoon, I think "Wait a minute" L: I could see it. R: I'm not so offended now. It's not- it's not- it's not bad. L: I thought you weren't offended to begin with. R: I'm not offended. I'm not so bothered, I'm not so flustered. I'm saying I'm not so f- because I can see it because most of the time someone goes "Oh, you know, imagine you as a dog" and I go "Yeah I get it, but I don't see it" but as a primate, which, yeah maybe. L: Alright R: Alright, so orangutan. It- I'll give you- I'll give you- if I'm going to be- If you're going to make a cartoon of me, please by all means make me an orangutan. Second choice, just so it's on the table, I have been a rhino in the past and did not hate it. L: All right. I like Rhino. R: He is magnificent. If you don't know who Rhino is by now friends, I feel like we've covered it, but if you don't know who Rhino is, Rhino is one of the first absurdist characters I played and there is a past episode where I told the story of Rhino's origin L: *Affirmative Noise* We will link to it. R: It will be in the show notes so you can go and review and understand why when this conversation comes up, Rhino always has to be mentioned. That said, what about you? "If you were portrayed in a children's cartoon what species of cartoon animal would you be" L: That's a very good question. R: It's a great question. I love how flustered it made me I can't wait to see what it does to you. L: So actually R: Actually L: Actually R: Actually L: I have done artwork of myself as an animal and recently I offered someone some footage and photographs as reference material for a comic strip they were doing. I don't know whether I'll be featured or not R: Oh so you may be a cartoon. L: but it's definitely not a children's cartoon but there's- I don't know whether or not I'll be featured but I was asked which animal I would like to be because it is one where anthropomorphic animals is how the characters are being portrayed and my answer to them and so I'll put that same answer here was either a bat or a goldendoodle. R: A what? L: A goldendoodle. It is a breed of dog that is a cross between a golden retriever and a R: a doodle L: standard poodle. R: Oh a doodle L: Yeah a doodle. R: I- I love that. L: So a golden doodle. R: I love that. I love that and I can see it now the you say it and I look at the hair and everything else. L: Oh yeah. R: I will say that, um, and I think this is probably gonna- gonna preview something. There has been art of you as a bird as well. L: There has also been art of me as a bird and while that particular character I think is it's own thing at this point and I have no interest in changing it, that happened because I used a avatar generator and ran a bird avatar on my fedi profile for a while when someone decided to include me in work they were doing and therefore use that as the reference image. I love that they did that. R: but you're a bird there now. L: And I'm a bird there now R: and you can't do anything L: And I don't feel like that represents me at all. I think the character exists and that's good. I don't want that changed but I pretty quickly realized. I- I'm not a bird. R: We- weirdly I'm- I'm also in the- in this comic- in this comic that were talking about L: Yes R: and now we're- we're just gonna put it on the episode and we've gone this far L: Let's go for it R: Surprise! Our dear friend ah, the thing about this is there is a character in that comic also based on me, which is not me, but I then turned around and used that character's name as a user name because it's BSD Clown and I've used images of their character which is not me but is based on me as an- as an avatar in places as well. So it is weird that you have inspired a thing that you are now using and talking about and it's gonna be here and that's cool. L: It's cool. It's very cool. R: And it's okay that it exists and this is a great example of it can continue to exist beyond who you are. L: Yes R: Yes L: I think that's fantastic R: I would like to point out that in this- this comic that I am a human. L: Yes R: Which I L: You are a human and I am a bird. R: I'm a clown and I'm- I'm fine with that. You see, that's what's so interesting to me. What I've noticed is when someone makes a cartoon of me- they talk about "What animal are you?" but when they make a cartoon of me it's just- it's the clown. L: Yes R: And that's what I think is the point. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: because there's that fine line between "Is that human?" I don't know. I know it's a cartoon but yeah so, check the show notes for a link to the comic we're talking about. *Silent Moment* L: There's- You're the one asking the next question. R: Oh, I'm asking the next question? L: You're staring at me like I'm going to come up with the next thing to say. R: I- Sometimes I get a little lost and I look to you for guidance. Which is why I've gotten so under the bus at times. L: *laughs* R: The next question, if you are ready. L: I am ready R: Okay. Huh. "If you haven't already done it, talk about the history of clowns and the role in making a healthy, sane, society." L: Interesting question R: Here is a fifty pound brick of deep philosophy. I'd like you have it in your lap for a few minutes and then you can hand it to me. L: Okay. I am going to state before I dive into this that I don't love the way that was phrased. R: The word 'sane' L: Because the word 'sane' really puts an ableist bent on it, but I am running with the feeling that talking about the mental well being, along with physical well-being of a community is valid. So, I'm not going to dismiss it, I'm just going to make a little note. R: Yeah and I'm gonna take a moment to say that we don't change the question because we want to answer it as repeated but I think the- I think there was an intention of respect here. L: Yes, I totally think there was an intention of respect. So, clown, I think to talk about the history of and the impact on society, you have to get an idea of what it is you're classifying as clown because talking about the American tradition of circus clown, that's not going to play the same way or be the same purpose as there have been roles within a lot of different cultures of- that- that get connected to the concept of clown that I think are definitely related to how I feel about the cultural impact of clown work and in many of those, what the clown does is point out the ridiculousness of cultural practices or the ridiculousness of particular behaviors of people, depending on how large or small the context is, because sometimes you're talking about very small communities and sometimes you're talking about larger ones. For example, I think that the same thing can be said of the work being done in silent film by Chaplin, when it comes to calling things out. That's on a very large scale and a very different- from a different place but coming to the same purpose, culturally, and ones where you're talking about literally your local community and having a cultural understanding that someone can come in and ridicule the behavior patterns of others without that meaning that the person being called out or the behavior being called out is a bad person or having some ongoing response. It's not saying "This needs to happen" it's going "I'm going to act in this way that takes this over the top, so we can all stop and look at it and think about it and come to our own conclusions as to what should happen next and how we should approach this in the future." R: You're talking about buffon. L: Buffon is definitely that role R: Where- where someone takes on the- the role of- of the villain so that we can see how much the villain sucks. L: Yes, R: So L: but not always. There were definitely- in many of- in many of the versions of this that I have heard about, which have all gotten jumbled together enough R: sure L: that I'm not calling anything in particular out here, because I know that I'm gonna get it wrong if I try R: So am I L: But in many of those, it- it could be as sim- It could be calling out villainous behavior, sometimes it's just reminding everyone to think about what your defaults are. Because R: When you take it down to a smaller level L: if you take it down to a small enough level "Oh, why is it that we do that? Why is it the we do this thing that we all agree that we do? Has anyone thought about why we do that in the past five years? Ten years? Twenty years? Hundred years?" because if you think about it for a minute, it's really ridiculous. "Should we continue to care about it? Should we not continue to care about it? Should we be making some changes to how we feel about it?". The clown is not going to answer that question. The clown is going to introduce that question. R: And perhaps- and perhaps play it out. L: And maybe play it out. Which may include showing a possible answer, but I think that often it's not about the conclusion that the clown finds. It's about asking the question in the first place. R: One of the things that I think about when you when you talk about be- I guess being the question. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: One of the things I think about real strongly is the fact that a lot of the work we talk about that's uncomfortable and I mean doing the work. I mean as a performer, the process of learning how to do this work unearths so much of those default answers in yourself and I feel like you have to- you have to kind of explore those first before you can bring that to an audience. So there's a lot of, you know, these things become therapy for you L: Oh yeah R: before you ever bring it out there. Another- additionally, once you've done some of that work for yourself I feel like one of the really interesting things that happens is, well, once you know where you sit, you can choose to sit in in uncomfortable adjacent place to present it to others, but there's this- there's this assumption within- within the clown's work, if it's- if it's done it with heart, as it needs to be, I think there's a place where you're- you're able to bring those questions because, honestly you've made those terrible choices in the past and you've grown up a little. L: Oh yeah, I think that's definitely a thing that's done. R: Yeah, and I think that's- it's a nice- it's a nice thing to think about, is that just because we're up here perhaps talking about these very real issues at some point, all of these different things we might bring the- the table, um, one, they're very universal L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and they- they repeat, unfortunately and two, the person saying it isn't just beating a drum, they've worked their way through it. That's why they're there. L: Yes R: Yeah, it's cool L: So, that's- my- my- my point there is a very, very brief covering of R: Oh, oh yeah. L: One facet R: This is a huge L: But that is- R: I'd- like to point out that this is huge L: That's one that's coming to mind and- and that I wanted to to talk about so, R: Hmn, L: As this is multifaceted, Will you talk about the history of clowns and their role in making a healthy society? R: There are no other facets, you've covered them all. It's done. I'm kidding L: *laughs* R: Um, *laughs* I love that voice, to bring to the table whenever I'm being- It's just- that's a- I don't know how much of that voice has ended up in these recordings but one of the characters, just the terrible "I don't- I don't like it, it's terrible" Yeah. It's just- purely L: I like that guy R: The visceral L: I like to dislike that guy, R: Yeah L: to be fair R: that's part of it, it's the visceral distaste and dislike for everything that comes out of that person, is- is a fun thing to play with. It's just an example of comes to mind and I think that's why that's here. You to the very specific thing, I want to go meta. L: Go for it. R: Because, I'm going to go the opposite direction because I think it as a chance to have broader appeal. *laughs* In case someone disagrees with you, they'll still love me, we'll be fine as a team. L: Alright. R: I got this. L: Thank you. R: You're welcome. It's mostly about me. L: *Exasperated Noise* R: One of the things that I've looked at through this entire very bizarre journey, is the clowns' role has changed so much over time. Also hasn't. Which is that repeating cycles thing, but there's a thing that I think about especially, over history, and that is that, you know, it used to be- with American clown especially. There's a cornfield, there's nothing there, and the circus comes to town and then make a big tent, and they make a ton of noise because there was silence and everyone was lonely. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So, there's this huge ballyhoo. There's this huge event. The clowns are very loud and are larger than life. They're huge. This also, you can see this in other- in dance traditions, and mask traditions and other cultures and it again it's a big concept. Empty space- big thing fills it. Yes. It's a lot of noise, and over time I came to this idea that then the clowns' job was to be heard. Was to be able to skewer, and as I met- honestly smarter than me clowns, and watched how well they could skewer their way through all the B.S. to the truth, and they could poke you in the chest so hard your- your heart would turn on and I was inspired to try to be that. It's sharp, by comparison to the big loud L: *Affirmative Noise* R: noise. These are both really aggressive in nature and I- and I struggled with that, while still- also knowing how important they were. L: Yeah R: Um, So you went from "Make some noise" to "Be heard" and then I realized the change came again in modern day, I've been thinking about this a lot. Is that, now everything is noise and one of the clowns' powers is silence and I think that's why so many my silent performances worked. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Ah- as well as it did, because we'd reached this era of so much noise that that creating that little bubble of suspended time became even more beautiful than it- it previously was because if you're not used to the silence, one it's intimidating. So someone else is holding it for you, and showing it you "Okay, that's okay, now I can take it in" and so there's that and now I think there's a new thing emerging and this one I think it comes along with the school. I think it comes along with where I am in life, but one of the ideas I have, a poet friend of mine turned me onto. He said he was down an alleyway once, and he went to an event. It was a poetry slam in the middle of an alleyway and they drew a chalk circle on the ground. They put a chalk circle on the ground and then they defended it, and anyone was allowed to step in there, and I believe it was so long as you weren't bringing hate, and if you were bringing hate you were, like, obliterated. I don't know what happened, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but I couldn't imagine it, the way it was presented to me and you were given a place to have a voice. To be heard again, and when I thought about was the clowns' job emerging as the person, not who stands in the circle, but who draws the chalk outline and stands at the edge of it. They are the guardians of a ritual, and this idea, while they often step into that ring themselves, they also act as the caretaker of that ritual. Whether that is- and whether that comes in the form of teaching it to others, whether that comes in the form of creating, dare I say sacred spaces, because I think that chalk outline absolutely is L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Creating a space that is a larger bubble, that requires more work, and it does two things. One, it gives that person who is brave enough to go in there that opportunity of suspended time and great enhanced focus and energy and two, it shows people that it's possible to create moments like that where they'll get heard, and I think that's really becoming increasingly, critically, desperately important as people are trying to find ways to get crisis heard and seen. I think we have to create those spaces and we have to use these tools. Both to share those messages but also to create opportunities for those messages to be heard. One of the things throughout my entire teaching career than I've thought a lot about is the fact that my job has often been, not have an opinion about someone's work, but to help them get it across. Now, I'm not gonna sit here with something I violently am against- L: yeah R: and- and teach it how to voice, and in fact I have thrown a few people out of my classes because either who they were or their messages contained something I didn't want my skills added to. L: Yeah R: It's like I'm- I'm not gonna- I'm not gonna feed that. So, I think, when you look, after that sifting, which just like the very real world, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: mechanical, you know, ethical sifting, what you're doing is you're like "Okay, well how do we make sure this message really- that you have, really lands?" One of my skills as a teacher was always to give people that skill. To make sure they knew the best way to create that bubble for themselves. What I think is most interesting is that the end of this entire run we're both starting with and ending with silence. We are starting and ending with noise, and we are starting and ending with suspension of time. The irony of that changing shape and changing landscape and that changing role is it's still the same job and that's the thing that I think about a lot when I think about the role of creating safe and- and healthy emotional societies, is creating the spaces where people can catch their breath, maybe take off their armor for a moment and breathe and so often the people I think who are most affected by the work we do are not future clowns L: *Thoughtful Affirmative Noise* R: They're- very often they are people who are fighting real battles and they came to us to have that space to catch their breath, even if they didn't have something to say and I'm- a thing I'm proud of is the moments where I've made that space for people. So, I think about that a lot. So that's the meta. L: That's a lot. R: It is, and what you said is a lot too. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I think it's a heavy topic. I mean, any time you're talking about mental health, any time you're talking about societal issues L: *Affirmative Noise* R: These are huge topics and we are certainly not qualified but we're doing the best we can with the skills we have and we're trying to keep learning. L: Yeah R: I think one of those struggles I have as, you know, as an old white dude is I'm tryingta- trying to keep learning L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I gotta keep learning. I have to keep listening. I have to keep growing. I also have an enormous ego that I have to occasionally feed. L: *Soft chuckle* R: So yeah, there's that balance. So, some of it is giving people a chance to bleed off some of that silly steam. I think about that. Sometimes the purpose that bubble is somebody deeply needed to get in that bubble and go "Look at me!" L: Oh yeah. R: So they could stop saying it all the time. So a bunch of people could say a thing that I know we all wanna hear, which is "I see you. Now shut up" *Both Laugh* L: Yeah, the steam valve thing, bleeding off steam is also a thing that I think R: Oh sure L: happens all the time and this- this hits individuals, very much, is laughter is bleeding off steam. It's- there's build up of emotional content and sometimes that is something we will just label 'funny' and sometimes it is a lot of deep, complicated emotional things R: Oh yeah L: that get released in laughter. R: I think L: and I think that that it- that can be another major part of how clown helps. R: I think about, when you talk about breath and we were talking about Avner earlier, one of the things he really talks about is the fact that we're all inhaling and laughter is exhaling and how good that feels to let that go. L: Yeah R: It's just release and it's so important and I'll- We need it. We need it. We need a laugh. We need to be silly. We need to not take everything- we need to take some things very seriously, but we also need to not take it so seriously so we can decompress. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So we can have that safe space. So we can put down the sword and the- and the shield and the armor, catch our breath and go "Okay, I can keep fighting now, for what's right, what's important to me" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: What's important. I think we've answered it. L: I think- I think we could probably keep going for a very long time. R: A very long time L: but I think that completes the- the couple of R: threads L: start- started thoughts that we had. R: If- if you have nuances or- or terrible disagreements, by all means send us a message because one of the- again, the continuing truth about this process is that it is a conversation. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I mean we tend to have larger chunks of it than you do sometimes, and that's okay. You're our quiet friend, and that's fine, but I know you've got a lot to say so come tell us and we'll talk about it here. L: Yup R: Yeah. We have another one, don't we? L: We do. We have one more. The last- R: The last question. Oh, it doesn't matter how many times we say stuff like that it makes me a little sad and all I- I quickly go to you, my friends, and I say "Don't worry, we'll be back" L: Yes, we will. R: We have more questions. We can always use a few more. L: We definitely could, R: but a- L: We'll be back. R: The last question. L: The last question. "Do clowns have groupies?" R: *Laughs* We're gonna go f- Okay. That's where we're going. "Do clowns have groupies?" Um, wow that's a tough question innit? I think part of the problem is define groupie. That's my first question. Define groupie L: I can't give you a definition, I'm not the person who asked this question. R: I know L: I mean, I'm the person who- R: I know L: asked it but I'm not where it came from. R: I- I will- I'm going to- What can I do? I can anecdote. I can anecdote. L: Of course you can anecdote. R: That's all I can do. I can anecdote my butt out of this. Um, so I- I have to preface this by saying, me sitting in this chair right now, am a very nervous, socially anxious, um- I don't want to say timid because I'm still a primate, I'm still an orangutan but ah- I'm- I'm very aware of the space I take up and I try really hard, especially now that I've really seen it, to be more mindful of that and so I- I'm not usually the sort of person who's going to gregariously flirt with the world and all of that. I like a good hug but I'm going to ask first. That's who I am. The clown however, apparently ah- is a fearless beast that will sit in everyone's lap, will, you know, flirt with a man, flirt with a woman, flirt with a lamppost, it doesn't- it doesn't matter and it's all good and- and that guy, that guy might get groupies, L: *laughs* R: because I can tell you while performing as that guy I have been- I have been ah, reached out to. L: *laughs* R: Ah- literally in that like, if I've been on stilts there's always a photo, a bunch of- bunch of people, it's usually, I don't know why, but it's usually middle aged women have come together. They've had a few glasses of wine, they're all mothers of someone. They all stand with me there and we pose for a photo, my arms around them, their arms around me and- inherently-invariably- one of their hands just deeply on my ass L: *laugh* R: I mean- I mean way up in there giving it a gr- not a- not a squeeze- not a grope- checking it out and again I'm on a pair of stilts. There's not a lot I- I can't twitch away. I'm sort of dependent on the pose to stay alive so there's a minor consent violation that happens in the form of flirtation. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Um, so there's that. Um, I've had many people who get caught up in the mystique of the performance character who then have reached out to me all flirty-flirty and- L: And then it's you. R: And then yeah, I'm- I'm not up to that challenge *laughs* I'm like "I- You're nice. Um, I don't know what to do with that" I- you also would have to hit me with a clue by four if you're flirting with me. I just want to be- I want to be very clear on this point. That if you are listening and you are a groupie of mine and I don't know it or I haven't given you the- the appropriate response you're looking for it's probably because I haven't noticed because I'm an idiot. L: *snorts* R: So I'll say that, but do I- do I think- I think all performance personas are so much larger than life that they are charismatic and they attract. L: Yes R: and I have certainly done that. I will also go on record as saying a number of my relationships have been with fellow performers. I'll go on record as that. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: That's not something of- that's fine. That's because we were working together and playing together creatively and spending a lot of time together and getting to know each other and building trust and flirtation happens. That makes sense to me because it's a long slow trust building process because I am a wreck but I don't- I don't think- if- if- if there's a clown out there who's- who's like winning over fans at the level that rock stars do, I don't know that I've heard that much about it mostly because all the clowns I know are weirdos. L: *Laughs* R: I mean, we're- we're weird people. You're- Liam you're a weird dude. L: Yes, I know. R: You're a weird dude. L: So are you. R: I know. I like ya but you're a weird dude. I'm a weird dude. You know, it- it just means that ya don't- I don't think- I don't think that type of person who's going to groupie is going to groupie at a clown. I don't think so. L: You don't think so. R: Well, I mean- I mean we're in pretty good shape for our age I guess. *laughs* I mean- I mean if it's- if it's down to raw physicality, I mean I guess yeah, you know, I'm bald but handsome. What? Balding but handsome. I don't know. I- I- it's- it's an uncomfortable- I'm flustered again. L: You're very flustered. R: This is like the orangutan thing. L: I just look at you while you're having this R: I'm L: question in front of you and you just- R: Do we have groupies? Um, I don't know because I think the punchline that is ringing in my ear is "Not as much as I'd hoped" that's the punchline but the truth of it is if I'm very, very honest, I'm- I don't think the sort of person that groupies is looking to make an emotional connection and I think the clown always is. L: *thoughtful sound* R: and I think that's the land mine to step on. L: That is an interesting nugget. R: It is an interesting nugget, you know what, I'll leave you with my somewhat charismatic, slightly aged nugget-y charm, on that point. Um, and all other groupies can submit an application and we'll get back to you in a reasonable amount of time. So what do you think? "Do clowns have groupies?" What do you think? L: I think that you are spot on on the idea of "What defines a groupie?" because I think that my immediate response is, occasionally, and that's from hearing stories, many of which are not mind to share. R: Sure L: but I think that larger than life characters are going to make an impression and they're going to make an impression where it's so much more what's going on in the head of the person receiving that, the person seeing them, then it is the larger than life character. R: Sure L: and I think that is equally true of rock stars as it is clowns. I think that it's going to look very different between the groupie you think of as rocks- for rock star, and clowns. I think that many clowns have an innocence that keeps them unavailable in a way that continually gets respected in a way that may not be the case for musicians because I think that there is a cultural idea that while you're never gonna win, as a groupie, you're never going to win a rock star's heart, you might get the opportunity to be with them in some way. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and there is no equivalent cultural idea that- that clowns score, or that, R: *Laughs* L: or that you might be that person. Which is a terrible way to think about things, but if we're talking about groupies, R: Sure L: That is- that's the thought process. I think that there's- R: Clowns are losers, man. L: Yeah, you just don't expect that to be the thing. I think that a lot of people, actually end up with a very similar- if you look at- if you look at the fact that romantic attraction and sexual attraction are not the same thing, I think that many people have a para-social romantic or semi-romantic infatuation with a clown in a similar way as there's a sexual, somewhere sexual to romantic, as so many people conflate the two and don't have them as a separate in their brains, connection with your famous musician. I think that those things happen in very similar ways. I don't think it happens on the same scale. I don't think that you're going to run into the same number of people but I do think it happens and I think many people walk away from not a clown show, but a clown one-on-one connection R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Which may happen after a clown show, as a meet and greet with audience, may happen before a clown show with a meet and great R: It can happen onstage, you know. L: It can happen onstage, less likely, and definitely when we've done things that are, what we call roving gigs, so the- the events where the clown is out and about with people. R: "Running amok" I believe is the technical term. L: I think that a lot of people end up getting a emotional connection because that's what we do, that has a similar effect, it's not the same when it comes to societal's- the societal view on it or the direct- like, it doesn't have a direct connection but I think it is a very similar attempt to get certain needs met. R: Oooh, you know, there's one other thing I think about when you talk about this. 'cause I joked- I joked that the clown is a loser. L: Yes R: and the clown is making emotional connections. You know, one of the things I remember, we were doing a show, and it was a bit roving thing and it- it had gotten rained out and they moved the entire event inside this convention center and so we were running all over the convention center just trying to make a show out of anywhere we could L: *Affirmative Noise* R: 'cause basically the people who were there were stuck there and everybody else wasn't showing up because of the weather. L: Yeah R: It was just- that was just the- L: They were R: make the best of the day L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and there was this magnificent band, like a swing band, and the singer- and I had gone into the theater, the theater's almost empty, handful of people, just whoever was there. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and they were going to do their set and I'm watching from the side because I've been given free reign to run amok, so I'm waving to the audience and I'm watching this wonderful band and the singer, she invites me up onstage and we flirt a bit across and she invites me up on stage and we danced together and I'm a terrible dancer L: It's true R: It is true. I am. The- the one way I almost failed out of clown school was the fact that my- one of my clown teachers who was a dancer looked to me and said "We're giving you your certificate, but it's not because of your dancing" I mean those were exact words said to me before was handed to me. You- to my- to my credit I've then drilled a lot and got a little better than I was at the time but we danced and I realized that the- in the moment, I mean obviously I've got a disconnection from it, I've got a distance from it, the clown very much, in the time spent on stage with is marvelous talent, fell in love L: Yeah R: because the clown wants to be loved and for that moment that singer was in love with the clown and after the show, we did have a chance to meet and she had a chance to meet the clown, not me and they talked for a moment and it was- it was sort of wistful as they were both aware that that was a lovely thing that had happened and it was gone, like poetry. It just sort of- it had happened and that they had had this marvelous love affair that lasted for one Charleston. L: Yes R: And it was very much in the room. You could feel everybody going- as their personas started to settle down, going "Oh, yeah" L: That was that. R: That was that, that was- that was what it was and I think that may be why the clown really probably never would have groupies, because the clown- at least in my experience and what motivates me, is is looking to be loved not, you know, lucky because the clown is a loser and is so used to being unlucky that the idea of getting lucky? They wouldn't know what to do with it. It's like chasing a car, you know, a dog chases a car "I wouldn't know what to do if I caught one. I guess bury it in the backyard" That is a terrible thing to equate to love. L: *Hissing laughter* R: I apologize for that. I almost had a lovely button there. It was almost poetry L: That was so wonderful R: It was almost poetry. L: I- and you know, I think that was my fault because you had this wonderful moment, and you said that you could feel it, that that was the moment and it had passed and I felt like I should say "Much like this moment that we've had with all of you, where we've been able to share thoughts and some emotions" R: You got but- not- stop stop stop. You got button- you're doing it now. You got button hungry. You wanted to put the button on it. I was putting the button on it, you're like "I got a button of my own. L: I had a button R: Yeah L: I didn't go for it R: and so I messed it up L: and we ended up burying cars in the backyard. R: See, that's why you should always leave the stage before they'd figure out who you are, that you're a mess and that's why occasionally someone might flirt with us. L: Yes R: because we get off the stage before they notice what a wreck we are. That's the secret to my moderate success in life. Is that I just, I know, sometimes, when to go and then I only stay for a few minutes after that because I so enjoy lingering with my friends- you see that would have been it. You know, you could have done it there and it would have been really good. That would have been really poetic. L: It would have been R: But now if L: but I was enjoying the lingering. R: See L: There was this moment of silence. R: Too much linger and they start to notice what a wreck you are. Not our friends, our friends, they know. They think "Oh, we know what a wreck you are. Just get on it, it's fine." but yeah, I think that's how the stage works. L: I think you're right. R: I really enjoyed this conversation with you. L: I enjoyed this conversation with you, and with all of you. R: I'm so glad you came to listen to us ramble on and you gave us some good things to ramble about. We'll be back soon, and in the meantime, thank you for listening to L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: Such as it is. Not actually a- L: Are you- are you going out the door? R: Oh I gotta- right. Hang on. Hang on. I'll go. We're in the back of the theater, so if I go like this I gotta, *sounds of quick footsteps* Hang on! Arggh. *door opens* *theme music plays*