----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 20 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2024-06-30 ----------------------------------- *door closes* Russ: It's a satisfying door sound. It's a good one Liam: It is. R: It's a good one. L: It's a good one. R: I'm pleased. I'm pleased, and I'm here. I'm coming. It's a long, long walk. L: It's a bit of a walk. R: You know, it used to be two steps into a closet. Now I gotta walk across the theater in order to get here to be able say "Hello" to you my friend and "Hello" to you my friends. L: Hello R: Hello. Happy Pride. L: Happy Pride. R: We squeaked this episode in under the wire. L: Of course, nobody who's listening to it when it's airing is going to still be during Pride season. R: That's fine. I know it's gonna take us a while to get this out the door but what I think is important is that I wanted to record during Pride because this was the first year that we got to put a flag up outside. I mean we finally were in a place where we were safe to- to find out if that- we if we were safe enough to do that. L: Yes R: Which, uh, turned out that was such a weird thing. So, friends, just to- just to get the story on the table. We- we got here and we had good feelings about the place L: *Affirmative Noise* Yeah, totally R: and we had met nice neighbors, but we didn't know and we certainly weren't going to invite anyone to come visit with us until we did know and so we put on our brave pants and we put up a very large flag outside, and we did and as we were hanging it. L: We- a car stopped R: screeched- L: at a stop sign R: screeched the brakes, they popped out of their car and they shouted at us. And what did they shout? L: "Happy Pride!" R: Yes they did, and it was awesome and it was also not the only person who came by including coming by to thank us for a little representation that they felt that they couldn't do and that, to me, I mean I feel like that's why we put it up there. L: Yeah. R: I feel like, you know, we wanted to support so many people and we wanted to- to say so many things, but for someone to come to us and say "I couldn't say anything- I felt I couldn't say anything" to give them that space and they go "So I drive, every day I drive by your flag and I'm happy" so L: Yeah that was so big. R: That was huge. L: That felt- that felt amazing. That was every- every- that's every reason to hang it. R: Exactly and I'd like to also point out that's every reason why it's staying up. L: A hundred percent. R: Absolutely. So we are recording during pride. We- we have mostly been- L: I- I feel the need to slow ya down here a sec- for a sec- for a second. R: Am I getting going too fast? I thought we were in it already. I'm sorry. L: Yeah, we still haven't said "Hello and welcome to" R: Hey, hey, hey, we're talking. You're right though. We should take a moment to say hello to our friends on the internet and around the world who tune into listen every time- L: because you've walked into the room, and through the door, and across the entire space R: I was in the middle of greeting people. You're gonna do this now? L: Well, you didn't. R: Well, you- you want- L: There's a format R: Yes L: to what do here R: Yes and we've- we've messed it up. L: and you've completely disregarded it. R: I'm sorry. Friends, I am very sorry, that I have never gotten it right *laughs* and I don't intend to start- to start now. L: *laughs and sighs* R: I don't intend to, but what I will say is that I'm delighted to have you with us for this time in this conversation, now that I have walked across a very large theater, to sit at a table, in a room, and despite this room being very large, it does contain a lot of our theater and creative stuff, which therefore means that it's sort of a storage area for that, or one might call it a closet and we are L: "Two clowns in a closet" R: Or what makes for at this time, and we're so glad you're here with us. L: See? R: It was nicer, you're right. L: It's really nice. R: It is nice. L: I mean, I'm super excited about the flag as well, and super excited that we got have to have all of that and that we made it to here, recording, in time to still do that during Pride month. R: Absolutely and that was- it was always part of the plan. What is a thing that we haven't talked about a lot is one of the things that filled a great deal of our schedule of late, which is battling Wattsworth. L: True R: For those of you who don't know, Wattsworth is the electric tentacle monster that lives in the walls of this old clown house. Now, we have met this creature many times and upon inspecting it's tentacles we found that a- the poor creature was left unmanicured and we were left to handle that job, and so we had to take a break from fixing up rooms and painting walls to rip out the entire wiring upstairs and begin the process of rewiring L: *Affirmative Noise* R: the entire upstairs and so I would like to first of all, say Liam has spent more time in the attic than he has in the building. L: *Laughs* Not quite, but close. R: Close- close and ah- we- we have- we have done a lot of what what I always think of as "the invisible work" which is that- that effort the no one will ever see, but matters so much, like in so much of theater. L: Yup. R: So I feel like we're- we're on- we're on par. And also, it's a chance to talk about all the lore we've been slowly collecting about this place. Wattsworth has become a character in this building. I've posted L: Yes! R: photos. We've talked about it. People have chimed in. It's created jokes. I really hope someday somebody draws Wattsworth and we- you know I've- we've talked about sculpting tentacles eventually L: Yeah R: It's so interesting when you give yourself room to- to be a little silly creatively. In the midst of all the work, you give yourself this room to- to explore and to play and to fool around and somehow these things feed it. The- you know, you would say "We have a tentacle monster". I mean, we could be very- we can be very pedantic and say "That's not actually the case. The problem is we have a lot of bad electrical work that has to be redone and we're doing that." and that doesn't sound nearly as much fun as trying to tame a wild beast that lives in the attic. I mean, other than you, Liam. L: *Laughs* Yes. Yeah, no, I agree. It's been a lot of fun. Um- if- if you're not following us over on fedi, that's perfectly fine. But if you want to enjoy these ridiculous stories, that is where to find them. R: And in fact we have a hashtag which is "ThisOldClownHouse" L: Yes R: Which, we post, not regularly but- but on an ongoing basis we're posting little pieces of- of the story as it unfolds and little funny things and you're posting a lot of- a lot more L: I'm posting a lot more of the technical. R: Yeah, you- because you're- you're coherent and I'm poetic. L: *Laughs* R: And so that's how we split the job. We're- but we're slowly- we are getting our- our feet under us and we're getting around and I think one of the things that, you know, we get so stressed out but, we've been here for a bit and we feel like so much more should be done but I'd like to point out that we're standing here barefoot- or sitting here barefoot right now. L: Which we could not do for a significant amount of time. R: No! No! Not a chance! This place- this place was a torture test for your tetanus shot when we got here and we've done a ton of work. It's still a mess, and this- this project of rewiring has definitely added a layer of complexity to it but it means the place will be safe. The place will be good and we're- we're- we're making home here. We're slowly making home. L: Yeah. It is- it is starting to come together which is very, very exciting R: and it feels- it feels frustrating because at times we take two steps forward and three steps back. L: Oh, yeah. We- we take- R: It's always like that L: one step forward, we make a massive amount of- of move forward, because we completely renovated one of the bedrooms upstairs. R: Right. We have- we- L: because we assumed- R: we have one *laughs* L: We assumed that we were going to be able to simply swap in a new electrical outlet and a new plate for it and we would do that after we painted because you- you rip that all out, you put that back in. R: We were wrong. L: We were wrong. R: Very wrong. L: Um- and then we realized we were going to have to put everything on hold until we sorted that out so, if you've been wondering about the pacing of these episodes. R: It's erratic. L: It's a bit erratic right now. R: When we- when we got here we knew next to nothing. I mean, I knew a little bit of electrical work and we've both done tech theater. This was at a level- you know, we've all changed a switch. L: A lot of research had to be done. R: We- we've become when become reasonably adept, reasonably quick. So that's- that's, I think the big like, building update. Is that we've been doing electrical work. L: Yup. R: That's- that seems to be, yeah that's- that's all we've done *laughs* That's all we've thought about. That's all we've talked about. We've changed out- We don't- okay, friends, I'm gonna say something vulgar. I'm so excited to tell you that I don't have to pee in the dark anymore. L: *laughs* R: I- I think this is a big deal. It's important to me. It may not be important everyone but it makes me feel like I'm not living in a hut. So that's what's going on there. Um- so yeah, so we've got- we've got lights- lights in more places now and that's been- that's been really good and then additionally uh- we- we have survived a heat wave. L: We did just have a big heat wave that was- I don't know if it's completely unprecedented but it's definitely out of the ordinary for the region from everything we've heard. R: Right and while there- there's probably plenty of reasons for that that we don't need to focus on here L: Yeah R: We were unprepared for it and we became very good at being prepared for it. And we are slowly- there's a visual of early in the morning the windows open. Late at night the upstairs ones open, the downstairs ones close. We've been learning to fly this thing like it's a ship and we're adjusting the sails. I think that's the visual I always have. Is it's like a- it's like a- a big ship and we're slowly getting our- our heads around just how to pilot the thing day to day. L: Yeah, yeah R: And that- that's actually been weirdly really exciting because that's when you feel like you're inhabiting a place. You're not just- you're not just surviving it or enduring it. You're- you're- you're living there. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: And we are L: We're working with it and we work with the weather and with R: Yeah L: With the building and how it's- how it's formed. R: Sure, and you know- and it's funny in- in Texas it was apartment life for us. L: Yeah. R: and while we had lived in a bunch of different places, the reality is ah- that sanitizes the experience of- of how you live in a place L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and once you get outside of that you- you- you're free to- you're- you're free- I mean yes, and we- we- we used to always say "Well, someone's gonna have to deal with that" and now we are the someone who has to deal with that, you know. That part? That part can be frustrating but what's really neat is we can affect improvements and we have. L: Yes R: and we fix stuff and it gets better and L: Yeah R: Whether it's- whether it's as simple as we swept up or re- rewired something or we set up this little area where we can have a chat, these things have- they've mattered and they've really- I feel like we're just getting- we're getting a rhythm of- of improving the space, then catching our breath and improving the space and I'm- I'm reminded I- we have a dear friend online who- who said that their focus, rather than fixing everything up and then trying to be creative, was to create first and then let the- the silly- the- the silly things like infrastructure fall in around that and I think that's- that's been the best- if I could say got a best piece of advice in a year? I'm gonna say that piece of advice was the best piece of advice I've gotten. Which is that like, "make room to be silly" like today we- we painted L: Yeah R: You know, not buildings, like on pieces of paper, for pleasure and that's not a thing I do a lot of and it's new for me and I think it was really good for me and I think also it reminded me that I can just be here and do the thing that we came here to do. Which is I get to also play here. L: Yeah R: and- and I think those- those things, whether we're, you know, building a building or working on theater or just doing some- some crafting, I think you have to make space for it. It- because it's very- it's very easy to forget in the midst of all of it, when you're pushing so hard on a big project, it's so easy to forget that you're living here. This is your life L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Don't forget to enjoy it because otherwise it goes by. L: Yes R: And I think- I think most of the time in my life I've been at a breakneck speed and because of that, this- this shift to a slower speed has been really good for me, because I've slowed the heck down and I notice, this is it. I'm living and it's not bad. L: Yeah R: It can be very nice. Stand on the porch, drink a coffee, look at butterflies. I love that. Yeah. L: Yeah. R: So it's a lovely chat. You know, it's almost- it's almost as if we're just having a conversation. Then it occurs to me "Oh yeah, don't we have a format you were yelling at me about a few minutes ago?" L: Yeah, R: You were L: We have questions. R: Hey, look *tapping noise* that's the sound of cards hitting a table. That's a very professional move. You hear this? *scraping sound* that's the sound of my glasses going on and this, if we're done bantering, such a fancy word for it, faffing about about as I put on my glasses, is the first question. If you're ready. L: Yeah, let's go for it. R: Okay. Friends, I thank you for being with us as we read the first question of this episode of the podcast. "Can you tell The Rola Bola story?" L: Can I tell "the Rola- R: It has capitalized "The Rola Bola Story" L: I don't believe that "The Rola Bola Story" that I'm imagining is being referenced here is mine to tell. R: Oh, you mean mine. Oh, you can tell that. I tell it way better than you do. L: Yeah, that's- that's your story. I mean, I have- I have experiences with rola bolas. R: Well, who doesn't? L: Many people R: I was gonna say L: have no experience with rola bolas. R: I'm sure there's a lot of people right now going "What is a rola bola?" L: I can- I can explain what a rola bola is. R: Would you? L: Let me go ahead and explain- R: Would you please? L: what a rola bola is. R: Since you've got the floor L: A rola bola is a balancing board. It's typically a- and it's a- a classic circus act. So what you have is you typically have some sort of a tube R: or rola L: and some sort of flat board, typically it's a wooden board. R: or a Bola. It's not a good useful phrase. L: These are not what these pieces are called. R: Yeah, they're typically called the teeter totter of death. L: Yes and- and typically they are stacked. When the- the- the R: right, you go up the- L: The big intense circus trick is that you have them where you do- R: multiple L: crazy *pause* that is not a helpful word. R: no it's not. L: but surprising and perilous looking- R: I like that use of the word L: stacks R: I like the use of the word "looking" because you know- you know better. It's still very dangerous. L: stacks of tubes and boards, sometimes with the tubes standing upright, so you're on both of the flat ends, and sometimes where it is a teeter totter R: Of death. Or grievous bodily harm. L: Yes. R: Okay L: and while it's possible to get fairly injured on one of these, R: Oh, L: It's also, with supervision in learning the beginnings of it, it is a fairly beginner friendly R: Yeah L: Circus R: Yeah L: Shenanigan. R: I- I have the- L: It does require supervision. R: I have the unfortunate problem that I, as a- as a person who's taught a lot of circus arts and- and taught a lot of them on the street where we just let people have a go at things, I have seen- I've seen injuries by people doing poorly thought out things, if you do decide to play with a balance board, my typical take is get someone show you how, and don't take your feet off the board unless you know why. L: Yup. R: Those- that's- that's pretty much go- but the story L: But so- so- So, since the story is not mine to tell, R: *Affirmative Sound* L: I shall ask you, R: The Roll- L: "Can you tell The Rola Bola Story?" R: You mean- you mean the one that I- I never tell. L: I mean the one that you rarely tell. R: Okay. Okay, so I have to do a couple of- I have to do a couple of content warnings from my friends who listen. I'm going to mention injurious silliness. It is scary. No one got injured seriously. I'm going to start the story just by ruining that piece of the ending for you. I have seen many instances where this ends with- with broken bones. I mean, I've been there. This instance that I'm talking about, while it is a spectacular story everyone comes out of it okay, and I think it's important that I start there and with that proviso I will tell a story that is bad for my career to tell. So here we go. Early in my career, after attending a- a- American clown school program, I made friends with the director of that clown school program, who was also a clown, go figure, who invited me and my performing friends that I was working with at the time to come out and do a show. Now, this was at a very large shopping mall, there were, when we got there, over the- you know, each show, because it was multiple of the course the day, was about five hundred kids in the- sitting on the floor in front of a small stage and in between we wandered around and we went off to the- the little side area where there was a little "try-out the juggling", "try-out the plate spinning" that sort of thing. No "try out the rola bola" but that's a spoiler for later. So I'm sitting there and we had- I had done an early act and I was sitting on the foot of the stage, the stage was shut down and I went out and I just sort of sat on the foot of stage and I was talking to the kids and one of the kids said "Hello Mister Clown" and I said "Are you having a good time?" and it was "Yes Mister Clown!" and then I asked another kid "Are you excited about the show that's gonna start in a little while?" "Oh, Yes Mister Clown!" and then there was this third kid and I said "Are you excited?" and the kid looked at me and did not flinch and did not blink and did not do anything but give me the glare and said "I will punch you in the ween!". Now, I am a seasoned, trained performer, despite this being earlier in my career, fairly early in my career, but this rattled me because I had gotten threatened by a small child in a real serious way. So, I did my act, and when I came off stage the- the guy who had brought us there, he said "You seem like you played it little upstage, what's that about?" and I said "I dunno, I just had a feeling". He goes "Alright" and I went off did my- and I went off did something else for a while. Later on- and I thought I was done with shows for the day, so I was like "Okay, it was one glitchy thing, it's no big deal." and a while later the- the head guy comes up to me again, and he says "Hey!" and that's not really his voice, but I'm doing a voice apparently, so that's the one we're doing. He says "Hey, we're gonna do another show. I know you don't have one planed but we're just gonna do a little hodgepodge and have some fun." L: Alright. R: And I said "Okay, that sounds- yeah we can do that." And at the time I was working with a guy named Alan. Now Alan was a juggling champ. I gotta say that Alan probably taught me most of the toss and pass juggling I know. I had learned things like contact juggling and other- other balance stuff on my own, but when it came to throwing clubs, throwing knives, throwing axes, throwing balls, he taught me most of what I know. L: I know- just about everything I know of pass juggling and club juggling I learned from Alan too. R: Yeah, Alan- Alan is a- is a great and talented juggler, there's- there's still some video of- of him and I workin' together on our website. So you can go- you can see me and Alan in action, The Juggling Gents they called us, a name which I'm glad to have retired in favor of greater silliness but I go to Alan and I say "Hey Alan!" he says "Yeah?" I said "We're gonna- we're gonna do a little hodgepodge, says the boss." he goes "Oh, a little hodgepodge, what's that?" and I said "We're just supposed to go up there and do something." He goes "Great, I gotcha. Well, what do you want to do?" I said "Let's- let's pass some clubs" We- we had been doing a lot of that, we were pretty good at it. I said "Yeah, we'll pass some clubs" he goes "You know what? I'm gonna bring my" dun dun dun "Rola bola up there" I said "Sounds great. I'm not cause it's late in the day, I'm tired and it's a hodgepodge and I don't know what's going on" These may have been foreshadowing words L: *laughs* R: but here I am thinking "He's gonna go up there and rola bola" Okay so, we get up on stage- and so here's the deal, we come up from stage- I'm trying to remember the layout of the stage, stage right. We come up on stage right, which is house left, so we come up from one side of stage and I walk across and I spin around to the audience and I'm like "Hey everybody" and I introduce Alan is standing there with his board in his hand and he's like "Hey everybody" and I go to the left and he goes to the right and so we- we fan out and I said "We're gonna throw these sticks of doom" right, you know, being real silly and a- So when you do a partner passing start, it goes like this, your hold the clubs in your hand and you go up, down, pass. Now you'll see this, some people vary it up, but it was- it was a thing we had standardized on so we could signal timing to each other. So we were really like, you know, you go up and you get real dramatic, once you've got something like that you know what the timing's gonna be. You don't even have to look at your partner, you put your hand up and as long as you're ready to work at that moment, you can do anything you want up until that beat and then you gotta- do you gotta do the job. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: And so I'm like, "Alright" I'm gonna throw things up and look out at the audience and grin and when I look back, I don't see Alan. Now I remember- remember I said Alan was gonna be up on balance board that he brought up with him. Well I looked forward and I didn't see his feet, and I thought "That's not right" and I look down- This is all happening in like, "Oh no. It's all gone wrong"-time, you know, that time when time- L: Yeah, 'cause time slows down R: slows down to a crawl L: and gets bigger R: I have lots of time to think, unfortunately. Which means I saw all of this go down. So my eyes sweep down and I don't see the- his le- like I said, I didn't see him, I don't see the rola bola. I think to myself- and I remember this so vividly. I remember "Oh no", and at that point I heard a clunk and my eye turned and I saw the roller go off the back of the stage upstage and I'm like "whew" because one of the most common injuries is, if you come off a board you're going to fall on the roller and you can get- That's actually one of the guaranteed ways you're going to break a clavicle or an arm and so, yeah Alan's going to fall all over the stage and it's gonna be bad, but not a big deal. L: Not gonna land on it R: He's gonna look- he's gonna look bad but he's not gonna die. Which means he gets a chance to get better at his job. Oh goody, I'm so excited and then in the back of my head, that sort of deeply set directorial voice that occasionally steps in and says this thing you should know with great wisdom, to understand the lay of the land, I see all for I am a step back taking it all in and processing it for you and putting forward little nuggets L: What nugget did it have for ya? R: "Where's the board?" You see the physics goes like this, you're on a board that's a teeter totter, which means if the roller shoots one way, the board shoots the other way. The roller shot upstage. Upstage is the back of the stage where the people aren't. Downstage- I should have probably started by explaining all these stage directions. It might get complicated, but we have smart friends, they'll- L: Yeah, we have- you- R: You're with us. Why am I being- Why am I being that way? Anyway, roller goes up stage. Board is not in front of me, which means it's gone down stage, which means uh-oh. Now, I am not truly a believer and things like big bunny quotes "karma" I think it's problematic and I think it sets you up to believe in good thing/bad thing which diminishes the good thing and makes the bad thing worse- it's a complicated problem, but at my mind reeling at the speed of my own adrenaline, I think "Uh-oh, karma" as I see the board hit the kid who threaten to punch me in the ween. L: Oh no. R: and I watch Alan's career flash before my eyes I was like "Wow, it was good but it was short" realize I have done nothing but stand on stage, be threatened, and watch my friend karate kick a board- a chunk of wood into the audience and hit a kid. Now, in rapid succession- time returns to it's normal speed. I hear a loud meaty middle aged thump, that would be Alan. Oh, goody. I didn't hear a groan, also good. I don't hear an explosion of tears. This kid is tough stuff. The board *clapping sound* bounced off him, it is a wooden board, he got hit in the head. Amazingly he did not get more hurt, and the show is over. The words "mayhem ensues" are usually put when I write the story out in parentheses at this point. A flurry of activity. I'm told "Go nowhere. Sit on the stage" because it's now an incident and there's therefore some incident report L: Report R: -type stuff going on, med team comes in, kid is fine. Kid's like "This is annoying". I don't- this is the toughest kid I've ever seen, and he lock eyes with me, and I lock eyes with him because I can't go anywhere, and he does that thing where he points at his own eyes and then he points at my eyes, and then he leaves and I have, for the rest of my life, been worried that that kid's gonna show up in an audience and kill me. I really have. That one day- L: Wow R: One day- one day he's gonna show up and be like "You remember? You remember?" and hit me with a stick of wood, even though I had nothing to do with it. I've been terrified all of this time. Alan, of course, was mortified. He was uninjured thankfully, but it was a flurry of- it was one of those big career disasters and I will never forget the mentor pulling me off to the side and he said to me, he said "Well, that happened" and I said "Yeah" he said "I guess you gotta make some decisions" and he walked off and he didn't explain what that meant and I don't know if that was the day I didn't get to work for him. I don't know if that's the day he suggested I stop working with Alan, which I did not. Alan and I worked together for probably ten years after that because we were great, we just had a bad day, but I hear that phrase all of the time. Especially before I get on a rola bola. I've also learned to teach the damn thing and I've gotten pretty good at it because I don't- I don't want anyone to have a bad day like that. But that's The Rola Bola Story. Somebody threatened to punch me the ween and a board came for their head. So I don't- I don't know- I don't know what else there it's to tell about that. L: Nope, that's the story. R: It's a tough- it's a tough story because it- it's not a happy ending, except for it's re- L: Except for that nobody got injured R: Except- Yeah, yeah. L: That's a happy ending R: That part's great, and it's of course one of those great stories "where something terrible happened and oh, kids threaten you and they- justice was served" No, I hate all of that. What I- what I really keep thinking about all the time is that was apparently, because somebody else did something, I have to make decisions now and I've thought about that every day of my life since. *laughs* Meanwhile, I work with you. I guess I- L: Some- some decisions were made. R: Some decisions were made. I can't- L: by many people R: I can't say that they were bad. I have no- I have no ragerts. L: No ragerts. R: No ragerts. So that's, I think we've answered the question, you've chimed in. L: Yeah, alright. R: That one was uncomfortable. Thank you for putting me on the spot and making me tell a story that I have never committed to the public record, I hope I did a good job. If the mentor ever happens to hear this- I- my first question is why do you have time to listen to this? Don't you have better things to do? I think that's a fair assessment. What you're- L: This is an enjoyable podcast. R: You're right, you know, he may have trouble sleeping and we could fix that *snaps fingers* like that, you're right, but also I think about what that- what that guy said. I think about what that guy said everyday. L: Okay. R: Okay, alright. L: Are you ready for the next question? R: Am I ready for the? Absolutely. Yeah, I had to answer that- and yeah send me under. Send me under. L: All right, here we go. R: Okay L: "I don't know if this is too personal of a question" R: wait a minute, wait a minute L: Is what's on the question. I didn't say it. R: Ok, well no, I got that, but you just put me you just put somebody else under the rola bola board and- Why don't we say that more? We always say "We threw them under a bus" why don't we say "We threw them under a rola bola board"? Because there's a better chance of to get hurt isn't there? L: No, I think- I think- R: Hmn, gonna have to sit with that one. L: Being thrown under a bus is actually something that I heard from a friend who's working at an I.T. company that brought in a lot of people from various places overseas R: *Affirmative Noise* L: for relatively short periods of time R: Okay L: and consistently- as this was um- typically people for whom English was their second language R: huh L: consistently was the number one phrase that they were the most baffled by. R: Also I- hopefully uncomfortable because- L: Yes because if you stop and think about it, it's a terrible phrase. R: Well, and it's intended- it's intended to evoke a certain image, which could also be invoked by throwing rola bola board at someone. L: Yes. R: We've gotten off the- the path. L: We have gotten R: We have gotten off the path L: somewhat off the path. R: Alright, back on the path, friends I apologize. It's been a punchy day. L: So R: Possibly personal question. What've you got? L: "Will Jane be a retired clownsona for you? Still in flux?" R: I'm going to just slide these cards out of your hand 'cause ah- it would appear that is a question I can't answer so, I'm gonna say, since the question has been brought to me. I find that weirdo absolutely delightful and I hope not, or I hope not in some form, because I do- I do enjoy that particular persona. That said, I also like so much of your work, which is what this is really about. I will turn the question to you and ask "So, what's up with Jane?" L: Um- that's very good question. I'm- I'm gonna say we are at a "still in flux" point. Um- I haven't been doing a ton of development on clown work right now. Been doing- keeping the skills relatively sharp, but not doing a ton of development and I know that bringing Jane back in is going to be a significant amount of work that deserves to happen in a space that's prepared for it. R: Okay L: So that work has not yet been done. I think I'm probably going to take more of an approach of going absolutely back to basics and seeing who shows up. Um- R: And that's not an unusual thing for a veteran performer- a seasoned performer to do. I'm- I've known many performers who have even gone so far as to create personas that were just for exploring in workshops. L: Yup, so I have a feeling I'll be going back to my baby clown nose. For anybody who doesn't know both Jane and Chadwick, while they didn't begin with the noses I actually made for them, they each do have their own nose that I crafted, out of paper mache of all things R: It's good for masks. L: and so those are typically the performance noses for each of those characters. I will be going back to my very simple red round string nose for open exploration work. R: Which you typically did in workshop anyway. L: True, because it is frankly R: Sweats better. L: Yeah, it holds up better and I can- I- I don't have to be worrying about checking in on- on the nose. So, I'm probably going to just open myself up to seeing what happens. From the way Jane developed originally, I would not be surprised if I find either something of a merger between Jane and Chadwick, just Jane but totally chill with all of the changes or somebody entirely new. I don't know. Um, I'm very much looking forward to finding out. R: I- I'm eager to see it. Having- having had non-binary clowns in L: *Affirmative Noise* R: workshop, but not actually having any one in one of my workshops that was- that transitioned as part of the- while the work was happening. They may have- may have worked with me and then gone off and had a transition. I'm- I'm fascinated to see what of that shows up in the lab. L: Yeah R: and uh, it's, you know, it's a thing- always, when we're working, the smarter we got, I'll say, the more we became sensitive to that maybe and I'm sure, I'm sure you had an influence and I'm sure other teachers, other things we've talked about here. We're always sensitive to, it is- it is just one of many things about a given persona and we just need to make space for whatever comes. L: Yeah and I- I don't know whether I've already talked about this on the podcast or not but I had a moment shortly after I came to the realization that I was trans and that there were changes I wanted to make happen, I felt like I- that started a countdown timer of how long I could still do a couple of things that I really wanted to do, and one of the things I really wanted to do that I'd- I'd put on my to-do- to-create list was an interview between Chadwick and Jane and I had set up- I don't remember whether I managed to get the questions from each of them, where we sat down with them and asked them for what they would like to hear from the other one? R: *Affirmative Noise* We'd gotten that far. L: I think we had gotten that far before I had this, and then it- I needed to sit down and- not necessarily sit down but like to- to have this moment of having these interviews where I was filming both the- both the section of them asking these questions and the section of them being given these questions and responding to them? R: With the idea of editing back and forth L: Yeah because you- you you sat there and helped me- helped coach each of them through that so that we could go back in and video edit them like they were having an interview over a video messenger, something to that effect and I got most of the way through Jane's answers to the questions and the- I don't remember if the camera ran out of battery or out of memory but it doesn't matter the camera stopped. Which ruined the take so I was going to have to stop and restart and I fell apart because Jane is so invested in rules and a lot of those rules are societal rules, because she's very invested in the rules of the game, whatever the game is, and in a lot of ways gender is a game that we play societally and while she was never hyper-femme R: No, not at all L: She's- she's very- you- she's very easily described as a tomboy, I had just gone through all of this processing about how unwilling I was to continue performing femininity and I- and so for all- for all that like, I'm not confident the Jane cares about gender, as it is, R: This was about you. I was in the room. L: This- this was about me. I just couldn't step back into a feminine presenting role R: You, you, you- L: at that point in time and that was very R: it was early L: as I said, very early. I had just gone through all of this processing and reached a conclusion and I- I think that there's very few people who reach that particular state who are not in a very vulnerable space. I was in a very vulnerable space. I also felt like I was pushing myself extra to try to do this because I knew, for example, that I wanted to get on testosterone, which would mean physical changes and I didn't know how Jane was likely to respond to those sorts of physical changes. So I might be at the point of losing this- this clown persona and I wanted I really wanted to get this piece of evidence of more of who that person was before we potentially reached a point where I couldn't be them on a more physical level, on a- on a- I was incapable of representing them. At this point I'm not sure whether that's going to be a thing that matters at all. I know that for example, when I shaved my head. The first time I did something as Jane after having shaved my head R: Oh, the virt- we did a virtual show L: because we- we- we did a few different things where- where Jane got to be on camera and very clearly, I remember- for anybody who hasn't seen Jane, Jane typically had um, my long hair pulled up to a ponytail on the top of my head and then that would flop back down to create a sort of, like a triangle R: and then sometimes you put hat on top of that. L: and then typically there was a hat on top of that. R: You looked ridiculous, it was wonderful. L: Which created very- a very um, unusual look in- in the hair because you're not expecting hair to sit that way R: your stylist had fits L: but when she saw a reflection, her thought process was that her hair was up. It's just so far up it's gone now. R: Wow L: Like, that was how she processed that and she was perfectly fine with it. Had no problems whatsoever because, at the end of the day she didn't want her hair in face. It needed to be up and out of the way. It was completely up and out of the way, so she was fine. So, I'd already witnessed and I have, you know I've witnessed that she's incredibly flexible R: Adaptable L: and adaptable R: that was the word I was looking for. L: There- and there's- there's a lot of, she can just take a situation as it is and keep on moving. Now, I've also seen her encounter things where she went "No, I need it to be like this" R: *Affirmative Noise* L: "for me" and then she will just fix a thing so, you know, I don't- I really don't know how that's gonna play out. R: So different than the real you every day, L: *laughs* R: Where you change things, and you become things, yeah adaptable. You're you. It's the be- it's a piece of you. L: That's always there. It's- it's always a piece of you R: Yeah L: The question is just how that's going to- how that's gonna play out and what that's going continue looking like, and whether I'm still going to be wearing overalls. We don't know. R: Oh, I hope so. You have such lovely- L: I love my striped overalls. I hope that- that those get to continue being a thing. R: Not that I'm suggesting this ever be released, what I do remember in the room, and we didn't get all of it, again glitchy cameras, but there was some conversation between me off screen and you, part- out of character, out of persona L: Still in- still in make up R: Still in make up, nose off talking about what you're experiencing and I've never looked at that footage. That's not mine to look at. L: No, I have- I haven't felt brave enough to go back and look at what I said in that moment. R: As a- L: yet R: As a homework assignment perhaps you should. I don't like shoulds but L: That R: it might give you something L: That is on the- on the eventual to-do list, yes. R: I think you're gonna- I think you're gonna find a lot of things. What I'm- what I watch, I watch you working your way through this very complicated puzzle and what's so funny is of course, from the outside, with the clowns eye, it's very simple. You'll do what makes sense. L: Yeah R: Especially if it's nonsense. Um, when I say "I hope we- and I want to be clear on this point, when I say "I hope we see Jane again" I'm talking about a personality, a persona. I, you know, I love who you are. And I love who- L: Oh yeah, yeah. R: I want to be clear on that point to any one who is listening because these things are so close to who we are and yet there's that line that makes them different and the- for that reason, you know, the- it's- it's about you. It's about you as the performer, we're talking about your well being, is far more important than theirs, but that becomes- it becomes a cyclical thing. L: It does and I- I think it's- it's- it's very funny for me because I had this complete meltdown at that point in time because I was very sensitive R: It was fresh L: and it was very fresh, um, but around the same time and continuing, I've been fully aware from like, day one, that there were some characters, you know, costumes whether they- whether they be run by a particular clown persona or not, that was still up in the air to see what was going to happen, that I wanted to do that I still wanted to do, that would now be drag characters. R: I also remember very vividly, at one point we were doing weird video exercises, this was very early in the pandemic. We were still teaching classes online and I had everybody do characters and I- and this was, this was on me, I- I through this at everybody and I did it too. L: *Affirmative Noise* you did R: And it was, the- the- the rules were like make three changes to yourself, and then we did- we said "That's you're new character and we're going to just- We're gonna just push and explore a quick thing" and for whatever reason, you ended up in a very high femme villainous L: Side pony bitch, yeah. R: Yeah, it was terrible and we loved- we loved hating that character so much, but simultaneously there was such a visceral discomfort rolling around underneath it that we very- we very quickly dispatched with it and said "we'll try something else", even though our job as performers and players is to try those things. We want to try those things. We want to try those discomforts. There was clearly enough there that everyone was feeling that was like "Eh, why don't you put that down?" and you know now, that was- that was long before this conversation and now you're going- I can't help but say "Oh, that makes perfect sense. What an uncomfortable pla- uncomfortable place to have accidentally put you." L: Oh yeah, and I think that was- that was me putting myself into places and- and I think all of those explorations were really good for me. Um, So it's- it's definitely interesting because I- I am confident that at some point I am going to do at least a drag character. I've got a couple of really outlandish things R: Oh, I hope so. L: that I'd like to play with, um, and it's fascinating to- to have been at the very beginning of a gender journey knowing that that was something that- I suppose I didn't know I would hit a place where I felt confident enough to do that, but I knew I wanted to. I knew I wanted to hit a point where I felt confident and strong enough in who I was to be able to go play this thing that is totally not R: Who you are L: Who I am. R: I think it's- it's interesting, having played- and this comes as a shock to everyone who meets me, that I have played the villain a few times and L: *laughs* R: I know, it's baffling, but having- having played that and what you find is how different it is from you L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and in some ways that's very uncomfortable and in some ways it's very helpful because you have enough distance to just- to just play with it. L: Yeah R: It- it becomes a- it becomes just a ridiculous thing to-you know, because I'm not villainous, you know, so it became- it- truly viscerally, you know, mustache twirling evil is not- L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I like the dramatis of it but it's not who I am. L: No R: So it's- it becomes- it becomes sort of like that and I think when you're looking at performance and what it can teach you, you know these ideas, this- this thing where we go "Oh, well you know, I did that and how did I feel about it?" and then you sit with that for a while and you either go further into it or- or you step away from it. I don't- I don't think it's so much a- I don't think it's so much a you run screaming from that or you force yourself to do it. It's- it's kinda- it's- it's finding out who you are in those unusual situations, you know? L: *Affirmative Noise* and so I'm- I'm- I'm very interested to see what happens because I was very nervous for a while about what happened, what would happen if Jane is still a girl or if Jane isn't now. Like, both of those things were very concerning feeling at various points. Um, I actually would- feel like at this point saying to- going ahead and saying I have a couple of different friends- I have a couple of different friends within a couple of different multiple sym- ah, multiple systems, or plural systems, ah- where different members of the system are different genders and getting a chance to talk with a few of the people involved there was really good for me both with members of the system whose identities closer matched how they tend to present themselves as a- as a unit to be perceived by people and those that differed from how they tend to be perceived as unit made me a lot more comfortable with the idea that it's totally fine. Jane is whoever Jane's gonna be. That doesn't have to impact me and- and I don't have to push, like as I mentioned, I was very excited about- and I'm still excited about having a couple of- of like drag characters. I don't have to push Jane to that kind of an extreme R: No L: in order to feel comfortable with having her go out there. So, we'll see- we'll see what that is. I'm- R: and I- L: I'm- I found myself kind of letting myself think about all the various things that I think could happen in order to keep myself from making any sort of decisions R: and that- that was what I was thinking was, at the end of the day, one of the things that I think is very important to point out as a- a creative director, a facilitator L: *Affirmative Noise* R: for clowns. One of the things we would do, is we would never bring a- a person who's working on their a clown too early near anyone in the world. We would keep them in the lab. Growing like a- like a fungus. L: *laughs* R: Under the stage until such time as- well and I think, one of my favorite examples of this is when clowns interact with children, one of the things that happens is at some point one of those children, probably the kid who threatens to punch you in the ween, will point at you and say "You're not real" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and for many people, that sense of imposter syndrome is there under the clown and it will shatter them and what we have to do is give them the strength to s- to stand up to them and say "Don't worry, I'm sure I'm just as real as you are. You're probably made up too." and that's fine L: yeah R: because that's- that's the best part about being a person, I think is that you get to make yourself up. L: Yep R: Ooh, I want to put that the button and just move on if you're okay. L: Yup. R: Unless you have a parting thought. L: No, to- to be determined. R: "To be determined." That's a lot good stuff. So, moving on,friends take a deep breath we have another question. Wow. You read one and you're just like- "Really?". "What are some popular opinions/theories on how clowns work? As in how do they come to be and the mechanics of how they show up and do clown things. How do your opinions differ?" L: Oooh. R: Ooooh. L: Okay R: Okay L: So we've talked pretty extensively about how our clowns work. R: They're- they're closer in many ways to- to a mask tradition- I think L: Um R: would be the major- major difference I would say. L: There are a lot of different ways that people think about it because- and there's a lot of different ways that different people who perform as clowns think about it. R: Oh yeah, we are- we're- "we are the weirdos amongst the weirdos" is a thing I like to remind people all the time L: because I have had conversations with people who are very established performers and for them either there's a- it's a character with the thought process of that they are an actor. It is a character. It is a performance. It has nothing more to do with them than that they have developed the skill of performing as that character. Um, there are thoughts of it's just them having fun. So I've- I've- I've se- I've heard people going "It has nothing to do with me" I've heard people saying that it literally just is them but in make up, R: *Affirmative Noise* L: or not, as the case may be, or- because that's a- that's a range. Um, I think, when it's- when talking about popular opinions, it's fascinating the level to which there seems to be a public belief that clowns are some form of cryptid. R: I try to support that because I find it makes people- when I'm not working it makes people leave me alone. L: It's- it's- it's lovely. It's- it's that same ah- a being who is contextual situation of the first time your a- when you're a kid, the first time that you see your teacher at a grocery store R: Yeah L: and you get confused because that person doesn't exist outside of the context of school ah- in a young person's mind until suddenly now it does. A lot of people don't really seem to process that behind every clown character that may show up or clown persona that may show up, there is a person R: and that person has issues L: and R: yeah L: often that person has issues. R: I'm many speaking for myself L: Minimally that person has a life outside of what they do on stage R: again, you're speaking for yourself okay, 'cause I mean that's a lot to say, "a life" L: Yeah, but still, typically there's just some sort of a life and yeah, how ours differs is that we- we lean heavily on- on a mask tradition that increasingly pushes towards something that echoes a lot of plurality, to be honest, in my opinion R: That's a good opinion. L: So, let me ask you R: Let me ask you what? L: "What are some popular opinions/theories on how clowns work? As in how they come to be and the mechanics of how they show up and do clown things? How do your opinions differ?" R: Well first of all, I feel it's important to point out that this is a question that I get asked with shocking regularity and I usually start off with the following little- little ramble before I get into it. If you find ten really good clowns and you sit them down and you ask them for a well thought out answer to this question, what's lovely- if you say your- your truest opinion, when you walk away you're gonna have fifteen really good answers L: *laughs* R: because everyone approaches this in a different way and I- and I've come to believe it's because we're all so injured by life that we need different tools to allow us to access these parts of ourselves. One of my takes for a long time has been, as like, if you get to a place where the clown shows up, the clown is who you would have been of life hadn't gotten a hold of you and chewed you up. That's a hard thing to think about it- it's tough. Like, even sitting here in the- in the- with you know, my closest friends, it's a hard thing to think about because it requires taking on and- and really- and really accepting "Woah, some stuff happened". Now, when you get to- you- you hold that.Then you breathe out and you go "woah", there's- there's one argument that says this is a set of theatrical tools for- I don't want to say faking, but enhancing empathically connected performances with live audiences. It's where I know how to make eye contact- it's a set of techniques. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: How to breathe, how to make eye contact, when to move, the mechanics of comedy in some cases, there's the physical skills. I mean, there's- there's a category that is just really just about the body. There's a set of philosophies that I really lean into, they're ideas that hold me together and form so much of how I think now and it takes time for that to really sink in and make me truly, truly incompatible with day to day normal life L: *laughs* R: but it's this idea that the I see the world differently when I see it through that lens, but also I see the that lens has given me so much and it's a hopefully playful, otherwise I'm doing it wrong, and then what's left is this I don't know, spiritual? Energetic? It's a- magical? I've heard it- I've heard it's called all of these things and I think they're all accurate, I don't know which one to land on at any given time. I'm going to give- If I'm feeling skeptical I'm going to say "Oh, it's the B.S." and if I'm not going to say "it's wizardry", or I may say "It's just too much coffee." L: *laughs* R: it's true but it is, for me the thing that I will say that is different about all the takes I've seen is that sometimes, if I'm not looking down my no- my red nose at it, if I'm not going through the mechanical motions things happen that are beyond me that I can't explain without using the word "magic". Synchronoustic stuff, coincidences, the lighting is good in the spot where I needed to stand, and I don't just mean onstage because we wrote it that way, I mean the sun moved L: *Affirmative Noise* R: things go a certain way that enhance those moments, that make them really good and I believe there's a magic there. I really do. I wanna- I wanna "Oh but you know, let's be- let's be literalist about it" and I can't. At a certain point I can't,because I've just had one too many experiences where it was magic. So for me, I think where it differs is that I do believe there is a- there is a- a component, I don't want to say spiritual because that's not- that's not good for me and it so semantically loaded it's gonna hurt my friends. *laughs* It's gonna hurt everybody, but there's something to it that's probably fundamentally human that if you can manage to get your cynicism out of the game and get it into play, changes everything. It- it makes it playful. It makes it fun. It makes it light, and if it's not there you're thinking to yourself "Wow, it's going really well" because the minute you're self aware while being- you're aware of the- the fact that you're being a clown? You stop. It's the worst feeling in the world. You'll be performing and you'll have the thought "This is going really well" and it's over. The magic- I mean, it still goes well, you still get the applause, the show still goes well, but you feel that rather than living in the moment in this really heightened, playful, imaginative- I don't want to say child-like 'cause you may be being very mature, but a sense of wonder, you have all of that, and the minute you go "And I'm killing it!" it's over. L: Yeah, you've killed it. R: You've killed it yeah. L: Yeah R: You've taken the life out of it. So I think what differs for me is that I'm constantly seeking any set of tools that separates my mind, my ego, from it a little tiny bit because my terror is killin' it for myself. Is- is taking it from myself. L: Yeah R: In that way, because in- and not because I'm needy. I am, but because that means I can't give that to whoever I'm performing for. L: Yeah R: Or if I'm teaching that- and I'll say this, when I am teaching at my best and anyone who's worked with me will tell you this, I make connections in the moment that are- I'll never make here. I want to. I want to give you those stories. I don't have them in the same way. If I'm teaching someone and they need some piece of my experience it's at my fingertips because it's been trained that way. L: Yeah R: And it's- it's like, a bit like improv and the magic door? They talk a lot about in improvisational theater, you have a door behind you, in the back your head. You reach backwards and you grab whatever you need, and whatever it is, if you're coming from the right place and you're truly in the scene, and you truly in the moment and you're truly with your partner, no matter what you pull out, no matter how weird it is, that blue mackerel that is flopping around in your hand is the correct tool for the job. Even if that job is auto repair. L: Yup R: And you have to believe that. Otherwise the door won't open the next time you need it to and what is different in clown I think, is that it will be absurd and it will be poetry because what comes out is so strange and so built around my idiosyncrasies that it's- it's truly something. L: Yeah R: So I think that's where- where fo me it differs is I'm- it's not a set of- it stopped at some point being a set of rote things I do. I have a lot of tricks, a lot of shtick they call it. Where I, you know, I know how to throw my hat and do a trick and I know how to juggle and I know the joke. I know the pattern and the rhythm of a set of beats, and I know some acrobatics and I know this- I have all that stuff and the best day and the best work I ever do? I'll use none of it and I'll be angry that I spent all the time on it. L: *laughs* R: but I needed it L: Yeah R: I needed it. For whatever reason I needed it for something else I'll do. L: Yes R: But the most important moment will just be me being a human with other humans and that so- and it's- it's- it's so strange and such a weird job in that one way and to tell- and to anyone who has a skill, if- if you, friends if you're listening and you think "Oh I don't have a lot of skills" you have something you're good at. Everyone does. It may be making an egg sandwich. I don't know, but at some point you'll find yourself standing behind the- the skill. We say jugglers hide behind their tricks, because the tricks are really good. So they're juggling, and everyone goes "Oh wow! Look at the juggler!", "Yes, I'm juggling, I'm a juggler. It's okay." The clown is there with the trick happening but they are a person L: *Affirming Noise* R: having feelings about it L: Yeah R: and it's so fundamentally different because at some point you just drop the balls and you don't need them and to tell a performer that spent so many hours on the skill, at this particular skill, this thing we're calling clown requires something of you that you can't hide behind because it's you is why this work is so hard L: Yeah R: It's why it's hard. It's why you have to dig in yourself and we're constantly having these deep-think conversations which- you get tired of it and sometimes you just want to watch cartoons. Why? Because all you've done as think about your existential being for so many hours. So for me, that's- that's where it is and where it's different and that's how you handle it. You put down the tricks and you gotta be and somehow while doing that you end up not being you. Or not quite you, and that gets weird and I don't know what to say about that particularly other than, that's where it goes into what I think of as the tools of more of the mask tradition, because then somehow getting out of your way lets something you didn't expect into the room. L: Yeah R: And that's- that's the fun stuff for me, because when somebody- when you see somebody do something you never would have expected, like you know, when we're teaching clowns, we see so much of them that by day three we're tired of all of their tricks. It doesn't matter what they've got we're tired of it and then on day four, somehow they do something truly unbelievably weird and human and them and it's beautiful and you're like "Do it again" and they can't for a minute because they gotta go and figure out what it is they did. It's a really beautiful moment because what it is you saw the clown. You saw them, for just a moment of then everything after that is supporting helping them get in the room and like I said earlier, helping them get to where they can take a little being knocked around L: *Affirmative Noise* R: by life, so they can be in the room L: Yeah R: and somehow I say all of that and then I have to come back to "And please, remember the disclaimer that clown is not therapy" L: *laughs* R: Do with that what thou wilt. I'm done with the question. L: Okay. In that case, it's time for the next question. R: It's- You don't even get a breath in here L: Well, we can take a breath if we need to. R: *Breathes in and out quickly, but deeply* Wait, slower Both: *Deep breath in and out* R: I- if we've hissed in your ear, I'm a little sorry but if it was nice, I'm glad. Okay L: So, Ooh, we have another deep one. R: Stacked 'em deep. L: "As your clown/clowns develop, do they influence who you are as a person in everyday life? R: *laughs* L: Equally, do the things that happen to you in your everyday lives change how your clowns interact with the world? If so, in what ways?" R: Oooh, so here's- here's the rub, that I think- remember that whole "the clown is you and you are the clown and yet it's not"? There's that- that permeable barrier? Here's the thing, I am an anxious, cowardly, clumsy person. My clown very often graceful, magnanimous and brave and I don't know how and I have noticed over time some of that has rubbed off on me. I reach in and I can feel that feeling of "Oh, well you know, I lived through standing in front of a couple thousand people, I'm clearly capable of going down the street" You know whatever- whatever it is. Both: *laughs* R: Leaving the house. You know, it's like that. Ah, moving across the country, you know it's- I'd care- I'm clearly- I've done the impossible, I can clearly do the absurd or vice versa. I do think over time as you unlock different things in yourself they're going be either show up in the clown or show up in you, Or the clowns going to have an experience you didn't have and that's gonna echo into you. Just what- I mean if- if you think about it, if you read a really good book it changes you. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: If you watch a really good play or movie it gets in there and it changes you and I think it's real similar. Is that when- when we have an experience or we're shown an experience it gives us something to chew on and somethin' to think about and I think over time the permeable barrier is like that, no matter how hard we try to keep them separate. I want to pretend I'm not that person, but I also am. I am the- I am what's inside that. L: Yeah R: Even- even when I unpacked things as weird as like, m- we've talked a little bit about mask theater and when I've done things that I didn't really feel fully in control of, when I unpack them afterwards they make a certain amount of guttural sense. I go "Ok, I see how that happened. I don't know how it happened like that" L: *laughs* R: and that's I think a lot of it right there, is they- they magnify little pieces of you. I think when I've worked on characters and I've done a lot of character stuff, and I- and "Is the character a clown or a persona or not?" is something I still go back and forth. I say that I know that my clown persona plays a lot of characters L: *Affirmative Noise* R: that I don't play but I also play a few characters that I'm not sure that clown plays, and both of us seem to affect each other. I also know that little things that are weird, like I have a really bad sense of direction but my clown has a really good one is something I've talked about and we've tested it and it's weird. L: That one's baffling R: and I'd- it's always been true because I've always been- had a lousy sense of direction and the clown can just figure stuff out. There's just access to my brain in a different way. I think over time I've gotten a little better with that. So yeah, maybe I've learned a skill. Um, I do know when we have stilt walking performers, everything they do on stilts we teach them on the ground first, and I- and so that means they learn, like a dance move, or a juggling trick, or whatever we teach them on the ground first and then we put them on the stilts and I feel like the clown's real similar, in most cases. I know we've talked about a few exceptions. Um- famous Jane the exception L: *laughs* Yeah R: who teaches us tricks, but at the same time I feel like the- the- we- we teach- we- we create a scaffolding then the clown takes it from there. So I definitely think that's true, but as the clown has had more time- you think about it, the first time a clown shows up in a room they're there for an eye-blink and they go away. We play a game called "ball". It's a- We play catch. It's a very fancy game. It's called "Larry" and I- and I teach it and it's based on Lecoq's ball game if you're a theater person but I've- I've made some changes to it that I think are fun for clowns and uh, we play it a lot. Not so much lately, but you know, generally when we have a group of people that's what we're doing. Shouting and cheering and playing my favorite game that I used to be terrible at, and the first time we see a clown is very often they've got the ball for a moment and we see them light up and then it fades. So they've only lived for eye-blink L: *Affirmative Noise* R: And then as they go along maybe we get them in the room for a game, a whole game of ball, or a whole game- or a whole theat- theatrical exercise, a game. Maybe they're there that long. Maybe they spend an hour in the room- being in the room, but even with all of that, one, they're learning the endurance of been present which is a big thing but also they- they have- they're new. They've only been alive- if you add it all up they've only been around for few hours, you've been around the whole time. So on one hand, you have a lot to teach them. On the other hand, they have a fresh perspective and they will without question, teach you. There are things I've done in my life that I couldn't have done without my clown. I just couldn't. I think there are moments where- and this is not always like "heroism", sometimes it is, but there are larger than life, or they're important than life, or they're- they're poetic. They approach the- the artistic which is a word I struggle with, but there it is, and they're because they have a completely different way of looking at the world and you can't- if you're being present along with that, taking a step back to let it happen, but you're present, just like watching that really good movie or reading that- reading that really good book, you can't feel and experience all that without it eventually teaching you something. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I would argue that I, long before I got good at being a teacher I had a teaching persona. L: Yes you did. R: I did and it was like a clown but it wasn't. It was- it could never perform but it could run a room and it knew everything and it was annoying. The teacher was annoying. I got rid of the teacher. It was terrifying to get rid of the teacher after a bunch of events and I was scared, I said- and I remember telling you, I said I was- I was scared that I would never be able to teach again without that because I was so sure but I also knew that if I was sure about everything I was never going to learn something myself. My option was to either be sure about everything or accept that I didn't know things. Within a year I started doing the best teaching of my life and I have to say that I'm sure that that pompous focused windbag character, which has showed up as characters since L: Yeah R: Whether it was a crutch or something I created or cobbled out of other things, certainly rubbed off on me and made me a better teacher. What it lacked that I brought the table was some empathy L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I became a better teacher when I put those two things together, better than that persona ever could be. While they may have pedagogically been better than me, their gamesmanship might have been perfect L: It was really good R: and I screw up plenty, but I care more than they did and so that's an example of us rubbing off on each other and I think that's a- I think that's the heart of it, you're gonna have a- it's a- it's a two way relationship L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You're constantly talking- It reminds me, one of my teachers, uh- De Castro had a clown she said would scribble things very pompously and stuff them in his pocket and eventually, it took a rather long time, but the story as it was told to me, so eventually she bothered to look and read the notes, and they were opinions and thoughts and ideas and bits of poetry and important things relevant to life and De Castro had no idea about any of this was "Oh, that was really helpful, thanks." and all I ever thought upon hearing that story, because I think that is a great story. I think it's a wonderful thing to have. Why didn't you write some notes and stick 'em in the other pocket? L: Oh, yeah. R: Why- why as a performer didn't you think "Well, I better leave a note for the clown" and I've done it since. L: Yeah R: We tried it and it works L: It does, yeah R: So there's other ways- there are other ways to create a two way dialogue with yourself and again that's what I go back to on the- this- this question "Do they rub off on each other?" So there's- I think that I'm going to leave it there. Is tha- is that it is a two way dialogue and you're going to affect each other, which also means you have to be careful because if you as a person has an experience that you haven't settled or dealt with or gotten support for the clown will be working with that as well, which may or may not be a good thing L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I'm not saying I'm without trauma. I'm saying oh I've- I'm aware of my trauma. L: Yeah R: and that means I can go "Ok, we're gonna put the trauma over here for now and go do silly things and then we come back to the trauma." because of the clown gets a hold of the trauma, well now that's someone without years of tools to deal with the trauma dealing with the trauma and that's just unfair. L: Yeah R: and with that terribly deep thought "As your clown develop- "As your clowns -parentheses- develop, do they influence who you are as a person in everyday life? Equally do the things that happened to you in your everyday lives change how your clowns interact with the world? If so, in one ways?" You, you clearly have a lot to say here. L: Yeah. um- yes on both counts. um, I think that that could happen in some very big ways and that can happen in some pretty small ways. I've seen and had stuff where it was- where it was, uh, relatively tiny. We've- we've talked about how I had a- I had a trick of getting up from the ground onto stilts that I was confident that I had the strength to be able to do R: the flexibility L: the flexibility, like, I had all of the physical requirements to be able to do it and I- it just wasn't coming together and on a day where I had you there to spot me and full safety gear R: and a big squishy mat in case you were wrong L: and a big squishy mat in case I was wrong, we put Jane in that situation R: Who stood up while we were setting up. L: and- and basically let her know that we need- we needed her stand up and she just did it and so I- R: before we were ready L: Yeah, she just did it and um, then I had to take a run at it, then I had have her do it again, then I took a run at it as I was essentially in the back seat watching what she was doing and trying to piece together how it was different than what I was doing. R: because again, this is you like putting a rubber thing on your face over and over L: Yeah, it was- it's, from the outside, very silly um- so from from relatively small things like that to I took a major step towards becoming significantly more healthy and becoming much stronger and more capable of a lot of physical movement after one of the earliest- it was actually a- an improv prompt R: it was one of- L: I found myself doing a bunch of cartwheels R: That was one of the first times you were in a lab with me. The very first thing you did- there was no prompt that required it, but out of nowhere you were cartwheeling across the stage. L: Yeah, 'cause you- we- we had to teach something to somebody else and for some reason the thing- when I reached back through the- that- that that door what came out was cartwheels, and I was not physically prepared to be doing R: You hadn't started training yet L: No, I- I- I did some juggling and that had already made some improvements to my health but I was nowhere near physically prepared to be doing a series of cartwheels on the stage and I found myself doing a series of cartwheels on a stage and afterwards I took a deep breath and I went "Clearly I need to get into a place where I can do seri- a series of cartwheels on stage without that being a thing that I regret for days on end because apparently it's what I will go to. So I need to build that". So, you know, you can have those sorts of moments, all the way to, you mentioned earlier that because children have the tendency at some point in an interaction with a clown, there's a likelihood that a children's- a child is going to R: A children L: a children! Both: *laugh* R: We know you don't see them often so, L: You know the- they're- they're at their- their most concerning when they are kind of a mob so R: You're not wrong. L: So it's when- it's- it's when it's an 'a children' that that's- that's the most concerning but children will at some point poke at you and- and- and try to claim that you're not real. They'll say your nose isn't real or they'll say your costume isn't real and a clown persona needs to be able to- to hold up to that and so Chadwick showed up while we were doing our gym video sessions when we were still very locked down, and where everybody was more locked down and this was well before I realized that I was trans but Chadwick is a trans-masculine trans- I think he's a trans man, I know he's a trans masculine character and so there's that extra level of people questioning whether or not you're real because for a period of time working with the character- the- the persona of Chadwick we were still in Texas, we still thought we were going to get back to performing in Texas and we were running under the assumption that I was going to continue to be, in my day-to-day life presenting as female. So there were certain ways in which that was also going to be a thing that was challenged and so between those two things we really needed to run, when the persona got to the point where he seems strong enough that he was likely to go in- to be able to handle it, we did set ourselves up with the situation to um- to challenge him. To- to hit him with some harder questions and R: Improvisational, L: it was improvisational yeah, R: Yeah, this is- this is- these are thea- again we're talking about L: We're talking about theater R: theater, theater games and I think it's im- important to say when- when, you know, we set up something where you have a directorial character who's a- a provocateur, who's poking at a character, because essentially if you leave someone by themselves in room they just sit there. So they have to have something, at least initially, to react to till they get their motor running and then maybe they're going to do something on their own L: And so we- we had the point where that needed to be a thing that got addressed and I didn't know that that was a thing that was going to be challenged specifically. R: I L: but R: I had a list, and I felt so bad because I knew what- I knew what I had to do. Which was not- not to attack that topic L: no R: not the topic, but the topic- a- the standard, the standard sort-of list of things you're- you're poking at identity and then you go, as- as the- and I'm just speaking as the provocateur. L: Yeah R: You- you kind of go where the- where the- the persona leads you. I mean, if that clown leads you into a particular fight, you go there and I wanna say that- that Chadwick is a sobbing little anarchist. Sad boy and ready for a fight are two words that I will say about- about Chadwick and Chadwick is probably the one that did me the most cognitive and existential harm L: *laughs* R: of anyone I've every had in a lab because he was ready to flip a table on the topic of identity. L: He was R: and- and suggest that he might be real and everybody else was made up, including you. L: Well it wasn't just that everybody else was made up, because it wasn't that- it wasn't that open. It was very specifically that when whether or not he was real was challenged R: and- and to be clear, when- when I asked whether or not Chadwick was real, I was- I was- we were getting into it. It was a long series of conversational sparring which led to me going- lead to be essentially calling a persona a figment. L: Yes um. R: In a theatrical scene L: It made sense R: it made L: theatrically and- and R: this was dramatis- L: conversationally R: a thing I would never do to a human being L: Oh, never. R: and I- and I- this is always, when we're going on the record talking about like, process, we're- we're trying to help personas. Essentially we're trying to teach them a do push ups, in that they become strong enough to do that as they have to be able to push back. L: Yeah R: and not- not in the hateful way. We need to- we need to give them an opportunity to encounter a negative stimulus so they can choose to react positively L: but- but he's straight up said "How do you know that Avalon's real and that I'm not the real one and she's made up?" R: and I sat with that for weeks. L: You are not the only one R: oh, I bet. L: who sat with that for weeks R: I bet. L: Um, because I can tell you while that kind of a statement should- should anybody who's listening to this be going on their own adventure through working with clown, obviously that kind of statement doesn't mean that you don't exist as a person. R: But you'll sit up at night worrying about it L: and I can tell you it definitely was a factor in my self- processing um- because I mean in a lot of ways I realized that the person that he called out was a lot more fictional R: it turns out L: Than I had a really processed at that point and, you know, I- there is no way for me to tell one way or the other whether my work with Chadwick- to say how my work with Chadwick impacted my transition. I can tell you I know that it did. I don't know- It's impossible for me to know whether I would have still found myself in the situation I found myself where I had- was forced to stop and think for a while R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and had the space to do processing, whether I would have so come to the same conclusions in the same time frame. Impossible to know. R: I know it gave me a lot to think about and- and separate- separate of the issue, of- of the very significant issue of gender, the- the greater idea that one of the things that really came to the table and I wish that we had had the exact- it wasn't recorded conversation but I wish- I wish we had- I had documented and more thoroughly, there's been some time but the idea that it's all made up, was sort of, came- that seed that it's all- it's all just making decisions and that stuck. I mean, I watch that- I watched that ripple into me and it wasn't even my adventure. I was like "oh, wow" L: Yeah and I mean that this was juxtaposed with- it- I think it's fascinating that is juxtaposed with that he's firmly convinced that ghosts aren't real R: *laughs* I forgot about that L: That's how we got there! Was "Okay, then if- if- if ghosts aren't real" R: because he had a firm belief that ghost were not. L: He was firmly convinced that ghosts aren't real. Which I find is interesting, I have no such firm belief. I don't have a strong belief that they are real but I am not convinced that they're not. He's convinced that ghosts do not exist. R: It L: but R: It's a funny- it's a funny combination of idiosyncrasies that landed in the pile that is Chadwick L: Yeah R: and again- again, much- much in the same way that I enjoy- I enjoy and adore working with- with Jane and I've performed with Jane. I've not actually performed with Chadwick 'cause Chadwick was so new but I- anytime these characters are the room I'm so- I'm so happy L: Yeah R: because they're- they're absurd L: But yeah, so- so from the- the things where you have differing opinions from your clown, every time that happens I find myself reflecting on what I actually think because apparently some part of me thinks something totally different. The amount to which I've had to redefine what breakfast means R: *laughs* you're going to have to explain that. L: We have a- we have a game called "The Expert" R: it as very specific rules. L: It has a lot of very specific rules but the simplest thing is that you're- you're given a question and you have to answer the question. R: As if you were the expert on the topic L: Yes R: without lying. L: No lying, but extreme confidence and R: poetry ensues. L: Jane took on this challenge. Jane's question was "How do you make the brek- the best breakfast" For a little context, I don't really make food. R: You're not much of a cook. L: I'm not much of a cook. R: You L: Can I? R: you make a mean piece of L: Can I feed myself? R: mean piece of toast L: Yes. R: Mean piece of toast L: but I don't like to and it's not a thing that I- that I have a lot of knowledge on. So she was a little bit in the dark when it comes to for- for- for with things to come from me for this R: Twelve minutes of strong opinions. L: Very strong opinions of "however you make food that you like, whatever food it is that you like, that's the best breakfast." Very firm opinion, very eloquently stated, very confidently stated, and afterwards I was shaken R: *laughs* L: because, while I recognize that 'breakfast food' is very culturally defined and that what someone in a different culture than mine is gonna have for 'breakfast food' is gonna look totally different than what I have have as 'breakfast food', for me personally, there's a certain range of foods that are 'breakfast foods'. That it- that that includes leftover pizza still cold from the fridge is my own- is my own weird addition, but there's a series of foods that are "breakfast foods" and then there's a lot of other food which I don't have for breakfast, but that I love. That's delicious, that's fantastic, but that is for dinner or for lunch. It's not breakfast food, but Jane seems to think that any food can be breakfast food R: and this unraveled your universe L: and this unraveled my universe for a bit. So- so yes definitely, the things they say and do and experience have an impact on- on- on my life. I also know that things I do and experience have an impact on them because they are aspects of me. Chadwick really wants to go camping and that's because I have a lot of really positive mess- of really positive memories of going camping as a kid. I know because in the backseat driving-ness of this, there were elements of those memories that where the memories he was having of the experience that is camping. So he really wants go camping. So things that we experience build into who they are and things they experience are gonna have an impact on us. The weird thing is it's things they say that has a much bigger impact on me personally. R: Or do, I think L: Or do. Say- Say and do because I feel like there's much less that like, that they may go through or experience that's going to have as much of an impact on me. R: Really? 'Cause I- I'll- tell you, clowns- I always remember being backstage after show and someone will ask me how it's going and I'll be "Oh, I had a really tough day because this happened then-" and we're talking about the adventures and- because the clown's always failing and getting into trouble L: *laughs* R: "I got yelled at. I wasn't allowed to eat a donut and then the there was a giant and we had to run" and so we- we say all these things and they- you know, you're still feeling that adrenaline L: True R: They went through some stuff. They- they feel- they feel- "I need to rest" is what they say. "I need to rest because I've had a hard day" then they go to sleep and it's good L: It's true. And if- if Chadwick's been out then I need to go and hydrate. R: Yeah, 'cause sobbing anarchist, as I said *shuffling of cards, amongst a silent moment* R: I think you answered the question. L: Yeah R: It felt organic, L: Yeah R: it felt L: Yeah R: solid L: that's the- that's the answer. R: Alright. I hold my hand the final question of this- which I think has been a just lovely conversational episode I want to take a moment to- to thank everyone who's tuning in. I know the most beautiful thing I heard recently was somebody said- sent me a message, said "I'm- I've listened to the entire back catalogue. I've listened to every episode. I'm all caught up now, and you haven't put out another episode and so I miss you". Not "I'm waiting for the next episode" or "I'm excited" but somebody, a dear friend- hello. Said "I miss you" and that, once again, is every reason why I feel motivated to do this because we're having a conversation. Both you and I get have one, and also you out there listening right now get to be a part of this and by that I mean you get to listen but also please, reach out to us with questions and thoughts. We want to hear from you. It's our- Our favorite part of this is when you come and tell us a thing because we're- I'm- I'm a seasoned performer. I've had experience. I've done things all over the place and yet I- somebody listened to us ramble on and then had something to say about it and wanted to tell me L: Oh, that'll make my day. R: I'm always tickled. I'm always tickled. So thank you for listening and thank you for taking the time to do this. L: And please send us more questions R: and send us more questions. Anything you'd like to know. Um- and then we'll get back to the- the final question. Yes. Also, since I've apparently chosen do housekeeping before the final question L: Okay R: Take a look at the show notes which are on our website because they include a link to this episode's L: Cover artist R: That's the one, and we pick a different one, our friends sent us some lovely illustrations and we've got another one right here for you. We hope you enjoy seeing it. I've- I've- I think, for all the work I do, when someone plays with our stuff, when they get inspired to draw or inspired to make music or you get inspired to try something, that's my favorite part of this process. Is that we're encouraging people to play. And if- if you find yourself playing because of something we did, thank you so much, because that's where all the good human stuff you're gonna find is. It's right there. Okay, final question. L: Final question R: Okay, "Maybe you've addressed this already but is this old clown house haunted?" L: Oh. Um, I don't think we have addressed that. R: We have not addressed it. It is a big question. Fans wish to know. They've asked. L: Heck yeah. R: Oh yeah. L: Yeah, definitely R: Totally L: Um, I haven't had extensive um- moments with any of the entities in the building um- but I've definitely had some of those odd feelings that go along with somebody being around. The building itself, very clearly has an entity that- that we interact with on a regular basis. R: I think anything been around collecting stories this long is bound to develop a personality. L: Yeah and- and this building most certainly has R: You know, um- we had somebody come here early on, one of the repair people came here and randomly walked up to me and said "She's beautiful" and I had been walking around feelin' weird about that idea of gender and a building L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and somebody came and told me that there is a- there's a feminine energy that is the building, separate of anything that's going on inside it. L: Yes, and I think that's accurate R: and ever since I relaxed into that and said it, I feel like the building has been- the building itself is a little bit happier, being heard. L: Yeah R: So I think that's true. Um, do we tell the ghost stories? L: Yes R: Okay, L: "Is this house haunted?" R: Is the house haunt- L: So you- you- you tell the ghost stories. R: We've- we have- we've- we've got two fronts here. One is that we have certainly felt weird spots in the building, we've certainly felt weird things. Objects that- because we don't know the inventory of the building. We've- you know, when we got here we didn't know the inventory, and tools and things would be in rooms that we have been in yet, you know, that we needed for the next thing, that we were talking out loud about. So much stuff like that happened. L: Oh yeah, over and over again. R: and just weird- So, the minute it became clear that we were here L: To stay. R: To- not just stay but to- to help fix things L: *Affirmative Noise* R: The vibe changed. The- the energy of the place changed. And, so that was one thing. We also found out- in the- that I had gotten a weird feeling. Now, I have- I have some trauma about fire from my childhood. I have- I have str- I'm not a big fan and I conquered that later on through sculpture and fire spinning and all these other things, but it's a thing that's in my background so I always think about it. So any time I think I get a weird feeling like, "I feel weird about fire in this place, I feel weird about fire" then we found out this building had had a fire at one point, and we made a promise to the building, out loud, that we all agreed on L: *Affirmative Noise* R: That we would never leave a flame unattended. We would always have a keeper of the flame at any time there was a flame in this building, an open flame in this building. Whether it was the- the stove, or a stick of incense, or a match had to be lit for some reason, we would always have it attended. It would always be cared for and we would keep the building safe from this. The weird sort of empty tension of a big space dissipated the minute we made that out loud commit- I just started talking to the building. L: But- but things happen in the couple of moments of any time that we've managed to fail in that promise for even a moment. R: If you start stepping out of a room, it starts feeling wrong. L: Yeah, you go "Oops, R: it like L: my- my bad. I'm sorry, I'm here for it R: yeah L: we'll, we'll fix it." R: So there's- there was that. So there's definitely the building itself has a personality and then there's- there's a feeling in this place and I'd been- I'd been picking up on this and we've- we'd talked about it, how the- just often there's a bustle of people. Now, this place has a history of being a recreational center and a lodge- you know, a lodging place of L: *Affirmative Noise* R: various types. Play- People stayed here. All these different things, but it always felt like it was just like a bustle of people coming in and out. It was a dance hall at one point, so I was like, "Okay, it must be that" and now, I'm gonna tell a ghost story, so calm down and be okay. So we'd been talking about this and we talked to one of our neighbors and one of our neighbors has lived here for L: Ever R: The family's- the family's been here for generations and we got a story that apparently miners came and stayed here and would sleep here and drink here and play here and the mine collapsed at one point, and it was something where this was their home base and then they would go to work and that apparently they died in the mine L: Which was very nearby R: Very- like line of sight nearby, and you can feel them coming home, and that was the comment that was made, "You could still feel them coming home" and so there's a bunch of guys who wander around here and we just tell me get out of our way. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and it's cool. It's fine. L: It's fine. R: It's fine L: Totally fine. R: It's- it's- it's weirdly normal? That's a weird word to use but yeah, because there is that feeling of just like there's a crowd of people sometimes and then other times if I go "Get out" it backs off. So it's weirdly like a bunch of people being respectful of space and boundaries and so, how can you be mad about that? You just like- L: Yeah, absolutely not. R: You have to state your needs. L: Yup. R: And that I can feel a definitive separation between whatever is roaming around the building and the building are two different things. Those are very separate feelings L: *Affirmative Noise* R: 'cause the building- the building is a beautiful lady and these- there's this- this- this thing walks around and then, you know, who knows what else goes bumps and grind- bumps and grinds in the night? *laughs* L: Wow. R: I don't think that's what I was looking for. L: This was a dance hall. R: It was a dance hall so maybe it did bump and grind in the night. I do know it feels good when we play jazz here. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It does, it just lights the place up when you play old music here. Fortunately I'm a big fan of jazz so it's fine, and I think when you collect this many stories it is impossible not to have that, plus we're still moving the remnants of other lives out of the way so we can do things. So we're still, there's those stories and there's layers of it and I think it is impossible for there not to be some sort of impression left. Beautiful places get that impression, terrible places get that impression but impressions get left. Stories get told. People live lives. L: Yes R: and I think if you get away from the "it's scary" part, and you take a breath and you go, you know, they're stories and they're lives, and they're echoes it can be kind of beautiful and honestly the word I use is it's kind of comforting because I keep going back to the simple idea that if it wasn't for other people here and no longer here this would be a very lonely place. L: Yes R: and that is why I'm so glad that th- that that vibe is here, that feeling is here because I don't- I don't feel so alone and I can just talk to it, and I had to give up and just start talking to it directly. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Whether it's the building, or the room, or the people that are wandering but also we take care of each other and I don't know. I think that's why we do this too, it's because this would be- this would be incredibly- incredibly lonely if we didn't keep each other company and so I'm very glad that we do this. I'm very glad we have this, and I'm glad to share the ghost stories with you. I always get worried because so many people have told us that we're- we're comforting that anytime we want to talk about something heavy I always feel like "Oooh, are we gonna blow it?" but I like to think that, while- while sometimes clown is about innocence, it's also about human and not all of- not all of human things are pretty and many of them are sad L: yeah R: So that's okay, you know, you just sit with that. So when I talk about the dead that wander the building, that's terrible and sad but it's also beautiful because I feel like they're here keeping us company, and yeah, it was real spooky for little while. It was at first. L: We- we had a friend come and stay before- before we had a chance to really move in here and they had several R: several moments L: several moments of feeling very intensely that there were R: Yeah L: That there was something going on and R: Lots of people have said it, lots of people L: Lots of people have said it. R: Lots of people who have come here and there haven't been a lot of people who have come here, but lots of people who have- people who have been here have had something to say about it. People who knew the building's history had something to say about it. L: I wonder if we'll- I wonder if we'll change Chadwick's mind. R: Ohh, Chadwick could meet ghosts L: That could happen. R: I love this. Yes. Let's make that happen. What a goal. L: because I know I'd- 'cause I know I was just sitting here saying that "I don't know if I really believe that ghosts exist." I believe something exists. To be- to be more clear about that. Which is why I'm so clearly just like "Well yeah, this place is heck-a haunted." R: *laughs* It feels heck-a haunted L: Yeah. I think that- I think that that it's the spirits of those who were- who were here before and aren't now to whatever degree is just as good of an explanation as anything else, but yeah I think it's- it's interesting to have just been having that conversation. I- 'cause I'd completely forgotten R: the order L: The order of what questions we had today. R: We- we put a delay between between- between stacking the cards and answering them specifically because we don't want to be over rehearsed when we answer these things, we want to give you a real answer and I think yeah, like this felt really- it felt like there's a thread running through it which the thread was "woo" L: "woo" yes. I like the "woo" R: I do too. Well, I think we've done it. L: That's the end of the questions. R: That's the end of the questions and I'm glad we- I'm glad we got to share some more. I'm honestly glad we got to share a little more about what's going on here. You know, we- we landed and we started catching up- been the rhythm but I feel like we're getting to talk about what's going on here. L: Yeah, which is nice. R: Yeah, I feel like we're back in the moment and so we're going to continue recording episodes with the bit of- again with this- with the delay as we're working, but we're going to keep you in the loop and honestly I- I appreciate you listening so very much - because otherwise L: Why- why would? There wouldn't be a reason to be doing this. R: Of course, but more importantly it would be so very lonely, and it's so much better to have some friends with us crammed in here with the ghosts and the electrical tentacle monsters and the confused clowns here in this place. L: Yep R: Okay, you know, we missed it twice now L: yeah that R: We missed it L: we missed the button moment R: we missed it. We- twice I've have given you a beautiful button, did you go no there? L: There wasn't a R: We could have just faded off, yeah, it was so lovely. We could have just wandered off L: I'm just saying you didn't actually gave me the- the set up for a button R: You're saying- so you're saying my button didn't come with comfortable markings L: Correct R: So if I'd handed you a big shiny buttoned full of love for all of our friends and full of love for each other and in the middle of it it was just present to you lit up saying "press here" because that's how we say goodbye to this episode of L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: Yeah that would have worked L: Yup *footsteps* R: (from a distance) It's a long walk, I'll let you know if I see a ghost. OooOooo. I'm kidding it's me. *door closes*