----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 21 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2024-09-18 ----------------------------------- *Door Closes* Russ: Liam, I've arrived. Hello Liam: Hello! R: Hello. Let me find myself a seat in this very exciting new location. I know, I'm spoiling things. L: Yeah R: I'm so very- L: Getting- getting very fast into it. R: I just dove in. Hello friends. L: Hello R: It's been a minute since we've spent some time with you and I'm- I'm very excited to get to be here in this unexpected location which we are about to divulge in this exciting episode of L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: I think that was really nice. L: Yes R: A good way to start L: and R: and? L: for the first time since we got to this building we are actually in a closet of sorts. R: You're right. We are in a closet. Let me explain, friends um, this place is very much, as you know, under renovation as we transform it from being ah- an old building that kind of a wreck full of stuff into an old building that's kind of a wreck full of clowns stuff and part of that process is the fact that the upstairs was uninhabitable for lack of a better word and we have been making it and rendering it inhabitable and part of the quirk of that is that right now we don't really have bedrooms. L: No, no we're don't. R: Not all of us. Not all of us have bedrooms and currently in order to keep our personal effects, which is a nice fancy way I looked up on the internet for the words "underpants" L: I knew. I knew the moment that we were going to be filming in here that the words "underpants" were coming out of your mouth. R: I knew the minute you said "filming" I'd be forced to mock you for the fact that we're not actually recording anything but our voices. L: Did I say filming? R: You did. L: Wow R: It's- it's okay. I'm old too and sometimes I say things like "film". Where was I? Because you've destroyed the plot- Oh yes I- L: Underpants! R: Underpants. Our personal effects had to be stored somewhere out of the way of construction dust. So we found one of the bedrooms, cleaned it out and we moved our clothing and for a very long time we lived out of suitcases. L: But we've upgraded. R: We have. We have upgraded recent- rather recently um- we grabbed a dresser and we dragged it up several flights of stairs L: And we put it in this room R: and then we put our underpants in it. L: It's true. R: And what I think is particularly weird about this, by quirk of where everything ended up located, I had a suitcase on a luggage rack. I removed the suitcase from that spot. I put a dresser there and then I put everything right back. So technically speaking my underpants are really just in the same spot about a foot higher up. That's all I've accomplished and yet, and I must tell you this, that change did so much for my mental health because I finally feel like- Well it's a new relationship, the building and I are having a new relationship and I finally have been given a drawer. L: *laughs* R: You know- you know, that great moment. L: That moment where- where you have a drawer at someone's place. R: I have a drawer. Maybe someday I'll have more but for now I have a drawer and I assure you, for the first time, I'm very close to my underpants while recording for the first time since we've L: We got here R: We got here, yeah. So welcome to the room we keep our underpants, dear friends, and it has been, if memory serves, about a month since our last recording and we were almost cooked by the Texas heat. L: And now I'm going to chime in and go, you to said "the Texas heat" R: I have a theory about this. I've been thinking about it a lot. As our friends know, we successfully moved all of our stuff from Texas to Pennsylvania. L: Are you- are you going to say we brought the summer here? R: The only way I can describe the couple of weeks in August where we had a record heatwave is to suggest that while we were unpacking boxes I accidentally opened the one marked "brutal Texas summer" and spilled it on the floor of the building and so I'm- I'm taking the complete blame for the fact that we had two very difficult weeks, which melted our productivity into an absolute puddle. L: It's true. It did, and of you're going to take the blame on that one, I'm gonna let ya have it. R: Well, in so much that I have the power to take the blames for meteorological events that have nothing to do with me, my bad. L: *laughs* R: So here we are. Ah, you pointed out that this was episode twenty one. L: Yes, old enough to drink in the United States. R: and considering some of the things we've said, possibly a good decision. I, myself, prefer to warm up with a cup of coffee or a cup of tea or whatever's appropriate for the hour our listeners are deciding that they're going to sit down with us or go for a walk with us. I have friends- some of you have told us these wonderful stories of "I took you on a walk" L: Or "I brought you into the garden" R: "I'm sitting in a hammock and I'm- I'm drinking tea" and I just- I think it's lovely to know that for all of our silliness, we're trusted to go on those um- dare I say intimate adventures. I think that's a good thing. L: I'm very excited about it. R: We've been doing sort of a- a building update. L: Yes. R: I feel like we need to point out that we've been derailed for a little bit by the unfortunate unpacking of the Texas heat but we do have- we do have some updates. We do. L: Continuing to work on the electrical. R: We are about half way through the process of rewiring upstairs at this point. L: Yes. R: Which is pretty significant, because we weren't that far when we sat down last time. L: No we weren't. So that has definitely progressed. I'm trying to think of what else we've done. Not because we haven't done things but because I just lose track. R: We have a- a constant churn of to-do list. You have a few exciting things that have been on your to-do list, namely some charity work. L: Oh yeah, I- "I", like it's just me, we're both doing it. R: Well yes, but I've been running my mouth for a while. I thought you might want to join the banter, our friends are desperate to hear you L: We've both um- decided to participate in a fundraiser known as "Rescue Trans Rescue" where we've each put in some artwork that's going to be sold online as a fundraiser for the Trans Rescue project, Which is an amazing organization that helps get people out of countries and situations where it is un-safe or possibly not legal to be trans and bring them to places where they can be themselves safely and they are currently running into some budget issues and so R: Clowns are here to help L: Exactly R: So we'll- we'll put links to that in our show notes. um- but L: and that on is ongoing so it should- R: it should be live by the time L: It should still be live R: Yeah, it should be live L: When this goes R: and it's- it's a great project we- we- we did a little- we did a little thing for them, we were happy to do it, and while you know, normally we don't- we don't- we certainly don't advertise to our friends this is completely a charity project, every bit of it is going to them except for the cost of paper and- and snacks L: In our case, at least. R: In our- in our case. So ah- we'll send you that stuff and you can- and you can check it out. I think it's- it's a really neat chance for everybody to kind of pitch in and help on something and that excited me. L: Yeah it's, it's very exciting. So I'm- I'm super happy about that so have been doing that. Um- Maintenance, ongoing things. I've been- I've been mowing the lawn R: Scything, L: With a scythe R: Like a grim reaper L: Like I do. R: Like you do. As an older person, whenever I see you out there out there I have to remember "Oh it's- it's just Liam. It's fine. It's fine. He's- he's good." L: *laughs* I have taken to trying to wear brighter colors. R: I think if the- if the- if the grim reaper is gonna both show up and be short and look like you it should be in fabulous colors while you're- Yeah absolutely, L: Exactly R: I think this will be great. L: Yeah I think that's the update. R: I think those are the- because we actually managed to not go a really long stretch L: Yeah R: It's nice to have a short- a relatively short update. Um, the thing about this process and I've been thinking a lot about the building and- and this thing. It's ongoing at a scope that- I've never worked on anything this big this long before. L: Oh, it's just huge. It's just- it's- You know it's interesting because there's a certain level to which it's really endless. R: Oh absolutely L: because maintaining a building and maintaining a spaces is an ongoing process no matter what you're doing but the renovation does in theory have an end and- R: one hopes L: It's still far, far away. R: I think- I think what's beautiful is we- we, in a couple of spots, are starting to see the progress that- it- it's not anywhere yet but we start to go "Oh, no, that could be a thing". Um, and you know, and maybe that could be a bit of good news or that could be exciting and I- and I feel like that- It reminds me a lot of when you first start training circus skills. When you first get them you get these little wins all the time and it feels really good and you're very excited. You know, when we first got here it was like "We arrived! That's a huge win! Hey, I got some garbage out of here, that's a huge win!" and then after a while the wins start getting a little further apart L: Yes R: and I feel like the wisdom I can drag from on high into this conversation is on these bigger projects, celebrate the victories because they get further apart as you go. L: Yeah, celebrate every single one of them. R: And a day- You made it through another week? Congratulations, you made it through another week. If you, you know, if you pulled a screw out of the wall or you dusted cobwebs and that's all you could manage that day, I think that's an important- it's an important thing to acknowledge that those steps add up. L: Yes R: And I have- I have so many people I talk to who are truly good and overwhelmed by their- their giant buildings, their projects and I think the thing to tell them is to take a break and try to step back. You're- you're up to your elbows in it. You can't see it. Pop your head up look around and go "Oh, it moved. Good!" then dive back in and get back to work 'cause that's the nature of the- the process L: Yeah, definitely, you have to take a minute to- to just appreciate that you have moved forward and that you can keep moving forward. R: Absolutely. L: Don't spend too much time looking back, but- but check in. R: Yeah. We've become like "the wise fool hour" here. We're just- we're just bantering at- at- which is, you know, part of the thing but also I- I feel like- L: We're getting too advice-y. R: I know, and I- I feel a feel like we need to back away, and get- we need to get dumb again. One of- one of the things is I never want to provide anyone uh- it's funny, I've been getting- we get messages where people tell us that this conversation that we're happening- we're having, that's happening, that's ongoing, is something that they appreciate for its sort-of not being too much in the real world. L: Yes R: and simultaneously choosing the- the bits of that, it's like okay, we wanna tell you what's going on with the larger projects we're doing, or little things like, you know, we picked up a quick little creative project L: Yeah R: that we thought was good for, you know, the world and our mental health to do something creative again. Um- but at the same time balancing that against, yeah, there are very real world things and we all are very concerned with them. And I feel like when you're- when you're the fool, one of your jobs is to walk into a room and- and that be the only thing you're doing. You're in that room and so I think one of the reasons why this conversation works for me and why it's working for so many people is we're just in this little tiny room, having this conversation and not dragging too much of the real world. L: Yeah R: We want to tell you stuff that's going on but when we don't want to have too much of that. L: Yup R: So I'm- I'm glad that people have responded positively to that aspect of what we're doing and I wanted to say "thank you" because I admit that the more- the more honest were being, I feel like it's better but it also is an uncomfortable place. I'm a- I'm a performer and so that performance thinking creeps in and I go "Ooo, I should be performative and I should make sure it's exciting" and all of that's going too fast. L: Yeah R: You should just come in, close the door, sit down, have a moment with your friends. That's what it's for, and then thankfully they have questions and they're interesting and so we have something to talk about beyond "It's going to be okay" and silly banter and things L: Yup R: -like that. L: Yeah. I've got a pile of questions here. R: You- you do. L: That we picked out a month ago. R: I think this is good though because we- we were- we were on top of our game, right before the heat wave hit. We were on top of our game. "We've finished. We've released it- We've released an episode, let's immediately choose some more questions and be on top of" and then the heat wave hit and L: We were done. R: We were done. There was no productivity, nothing happened, and I have- and I will say this honestly, completely forgotten these. I do not know what's on those cards. L: Yeah, I know what this first card says because I've been sitting here with it in front of me. R: Well L: but that is it. R: That is it. L: I don't know what the rest say. R: Well, let's take a quick check. Are we feeling like we've settled into the room? L: Yeah. I think so. I think- I think I'm here. R: You think you're- You think you're here? I'm pretty sure you're here too. L: Fairly confident that I'm here. R: If not, you are one of the most complex and vibrant hallucinations I've ever had. L: Why thank you. R: You're welcome. Now, I'm going to have to take your word for it, are you, my friend on the internet, are you sitting comfortably and in the room and ready to listen? L: You don't have to be sitting. R: No, you might be on a walk but I mean but- L: but are you ready to hear questions? R: Are you prepared to receive the gr- I can't do it. I was going "The great wisdom of on high, and I will bring it to you now! Ah ha ha!" L: You've been very, very concerned about this "on high"-ness. I'm- I'm I'm a little- R: It's because we're upstairs. We've ever recorded upstairs before. L: That- that makes sense. R: That's my logic that I just found and I'm gonna dive on it and hold it as tight as I can and hug it. L: It was good. R: Thank you. L: That- that- that works R: It does- it does change the entire- the entire experience. When we're sitting in the theater it's this big lofty room and it feels very dramatic. This does not, because I am literally sitting next to my underpants. L: Yep R: So. L: We're sitting on the floor R: Sitting on the floor like a- like we used to. L: Yep R: How nice. L: In the closet. R: In the closet and yet not. L: Yes. This is going to be my room one day. R: Oh yeah, we will eventually make this into your space. I'll get my underpants out. I promise. In the mean- L: Thank you R: You're welcome. In the meantime L: Yes? R: If you are prepared, I understand you have some questions. L: I do. Would you like to hear them? R: Yes. I would be very excited to hear the questions which you curated but did not yourself prepare. L: Yes R: That's not a judgment that's- L: That's simply accurate. Yes, R: adjectives L: a very good description R: I'm just- we're up late and I've got the adjective. L: Yeah the words are coming. R: If you- It could happen. L: Are you ready? R: Am I ready? L: Yes. R: Let me check. *deep breath* Yes. L: Okay than. The first question R: Hold it. I'm not ready. L: Then why did you say that you were? R: Because I was, and then something occurred to me. L: What occurred to you? R: Well you through me off earlier because you said this was being filmed. L: Which is not. R: It is not and unfortunately there will be no video content from this. Which is almost a shame when you consider the hat. L: It is a good looking hat. R: You see, late at night it gets cool in the building and so sometimes I will put on an extra layer and a hat. And now that I'm here, and animated, and discussing, I'm getting warm and I want to take off the hat and so I'm not ready to receive the questions but then I remembered. I'm wearing a neon pink hat. L: You use this word "neon" in ways that are not- R: How would you describe the hat that is on my head currently? L: The word you're looking for is "bright" R: It's not enough. L: It is a bright pink hat. R: It's not enough. It- to describe the emotional complexities of the pink on my head "bright" is not enough. That's why neon- vibrant. L: "Vibrant", beautiful. Neon means something else. R: Are you the colour- I don't know L: Decider? R: Decider? L: No, no I'm not. R: No. Alright. Well I'm going to doff my "bright" pink and would you call that fuchsia? Is that an acceptable discussion? L: Oh, totally. R: Okay, my "bright" pink and fuchsia cat ear hat and put it off to the side because I'm beginning to get a little warm. L: Okay R: Further- further um- striptease may may happen throughout this burlesque. Stay tuned. I kind of like the idea that it's a choose you're own burlesque. Also the floors in here creak, so if you hear anything that was- that was the floor. With my hat now doffed L: Yes R: I feel like I've walked- I've finally taken off my hat and now I feel like I've arrived. L: Good, I'm glad. R: There was something still here. L: As he gestures, his hand going back and forth away from his body and then closer to it and then away from his body and closer to it. R: I like how you are closed captioning for the people who thought this would be a video impaired. That's just you. L: You're the one making gestures towards a microphone. R: Have you met me? I am a gesture wearing pants. Wait- that's jester. My mistake. Carry on. L: Very well. R: All right, the first reader- listener. You see, now I'm now I'm doing- L: Reader question? R: I've done it too. Wow. L: Admittedly, we do have readers. R: We do. We- we have gotten some messages from friends who have told us that the transcripts really are a valuable tool and while they are without question the long part of this process, other than these intros before the first question, which take longer- That they are- that they are considered valued and it makes me feel validated. Every time someone tells us "Oh, I was able to read your podcast". Those readers, may have submitted questions. If that is the case then I am ready for our first reader question. I'm feeling real proud of myself, that I dug myself out. Did you see it? L: I did. I'm very impressed. R: Thank you. The first question. L: The first question, which may have come from a reader or from a listener R: But not a watcher. We've established that. L: I mean, have we checked? R: Are you saying have we checked for random video recording devices in this building? Yes. L: Oh, I was mostly just thinking about somebody outside with binoculars. R: Well, there's a curtain. It's fine. L: Okay R: And if somebody wants to watch us do a live show of us sitting on the floor next to our underpants talking to our friends on the internet? They need this and they should be allowed to watch. L: That's fair. R: Thank you L: The first question R: Regardless of it's origin point L: Yes. R: I'm ready to receive L: The first question is "What's something in clown you've had a hard time unteaching? How about unlearning?" R: Oooh. Ey-yi-yi-yi-yi, because you know, on one hand I love to- I love to pretend I'm perfect, and I love to teach. And teaching is telling someone they're not. L: *laughs* R: Perfect, I mean. L: It's true. R: Can I answer them backwards? I'll answer them backwards. I had to unlearn everything I thought I knew along the way and I know that sounds super broad, but it's because you walk into this work thinking you know yourself and thinking you know something about the process of making the funny sausage happen- I'm regretting that metaphor immediately L: *laughs* R: Because I was going to say how the sausage is made and then you know- that- the- and they came together in a really bad way. I apologize. But you walk into this thinking you know something about how this works and then you start learning and you realize you know nothing and so you have to- you really do have undig and unlearn. But the most difficult things for me personally to unlearn? L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Ah- I walked into this work with a lot of unresolved stuff that has nothing to do with the work L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and it was getting in my way and often manifesting really negatively. Whether I was getting angry or frustrated or how I felt it should be done and further I very quickly landed- Once I got through some of that, getting to do work was way above my station. Getting to work with other people and then having that part of my brain that had more experience maybe directing? L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Which meant basically I was telling them what to say, do, and think rather than listening. L: *Understanding Sound* R: So I had to unlearn- I'm- I'm having to stand next to my underwear in front of my friends and tell them that I am a control freak and I am and it's not because I'm demanding. It's because I'm usually very afraid and my sense of control is what makes me feel safe and nothing good that's funny happens until you get to that vulnerable place and by definition that's when you're not safe. L: *Understanding Sound* Yes R: and that means having to trust people, trust your audience, trust your performing partners and I had to tear my way personally through a lot of that and it was- it was very- I'm getting choked up, it was very hard because if I stand in front of an audience and I don't give them the truth, well they don't receive the truth and they know it. Whether they know what the lie is, whether it's I'm creating some great artifice about who I am or I'm just coming across untrustworthy, they're not gonna connect. They're not going to trust. They're going to lean back in their chair. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and so until I unlearned those defensive strategies, the things that may well have kept me alive in the real world at some point, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I had to unlearn those for myself to be able to- um, to be able to- to start to connect to the work at all and I think that happened much later in the process than I'm comfortable admitting because I had- I had a lot of work to do. I'm a mess, but then also as you learn things, you learn new ideas and then you have to take them back and keep going through it. So I think that's an ongoing process. I've talked about the fact that I still get really riled up before we work, I get frustrated. L: Yeah R: and then I drop it and I'm great and I just have to learn to do that before anybody notices. L: *Laughs* R: Because otherwise they hate me, and they don't wanna play with me. So that's for me. I don't think that's true of everybody. I think that's my particular trip that I had to unlearn L: yeah R: And I've been given that note by a lot of people. Whether was "Stop being full of crap", or "There's no room for anger in the work" or, there's- you know, "There's a time to be a good liar and it's not when you're on stage", I've been given all these little chestnuts but for me, cutting the crap L: Yeah R: The- because it made me feel safe. Cutting the crap, getting in the room, that's what worked for me. What is something I saw as a teacher all the time? I think the thing that I have to- I- and I jokingly referred to it as "Beating the Stanislavski" or "beating the- the Meisner out of people" people come in the room to learn clown and sometimes they're theater people, so they come in and they're tremendous actors. L: Yes, we've definitely seen that R: They're connecting to a lot of technique and a lot of training and a lot of methodology for achieving some very real emotional states that have nothing to do with what's going on in the room. Clown is so much about having an experience in the room that I think the number one thing that I have to unteach in people, when they- when they come and they- they play with us is that it's okay just to be here and at first, until you start playing the games and getting into it, you're gonna go for these solutions that you have in your toolbox. "I need to be funny", "I need to be clever", "I need to be dramatic", "I need to be musical", "I need do a handstand", whatever it is. You feel like you gotta go to those things because the truth is you're afraid you got nothing, but at that moment where you have nothing, something always happens and it's always way better than anything you planned. So I think, and I guess I'm looking at it and realizing it's a different version of the same problem L: Arguably yeah, yeah. R: The unlearning is- unlearning their- to rely on their techniques so they can give us something real. I think in my case I didn't have any technique coming in so I had nothing to rely on. I just guessed, which ironically is failure and that's funny and that's good clown. So I think that's why it worked for me one way and when I have to teach it other people now I've- I've moved up a little bit and theater people come or people who have a background in performance come and they have L: They have stuff. R: They have stuff and it's great and it's also B.S. L: Oh yeah R: And that- I don't know. I feel like the entire question, my answer wraps up to "cut the crap" and if I was smarter I could have just said "Well, you know, cut the crap" and move on, but the- the motivations behind it are- are interesting to me. L: Oh very much so. I think that- I think that having- having a defensiveness, being scared, is- is a thing that everybody has to some degree R: and to be clear, it's human L: Yeah R: to be afraid and it's good to be afraid. I mean there can be very funny things but if you're afraid about something that has nothing to do with what's going on stage? You're bringing fear into a scene where it has no business being. One of the things we talk about a lot, when someone takes the stage they need to drop whatever they've got backstage and come out neutral, clean. L: Yes. R: So they can have an experience with the audience, because if I was to walk on stage laughing and smiling you would wonder what I was laughing about backstage. If I come out kind of neutral and then something funny happens and I responded to it along with you, well now it's a shared experience. That little gem? Is what this is about. Is removing all of the preprogrammed behaviors that prevent that moment from happening and why do we do it? Because we're afraid. Why? Because we're very smart, or we're not smart and we think we are. So we try to clever our way out of situations where we need to not be smart. Which is sort of ironic because we're talking about clown, where the goal is to not be too smart. L: It's complicated. R: and yet it's not. So yeah, I think the- the- what I see in other people is more complex and learned defense mechanisms than I, the untrained fool when I came into this had, having the same problem. Um, is just being in- being in the room with it. Ah, I'm going through it real fast, to make sure I don't have any other thoughts on that and I think the only other thing I can think of is stuff that comes with training and technique, you know, because if I start talking about you know, really investing yourself emotionally in things or getting- or taking them very seriously while having fun with them, all of those things come with practice but until you get in the room without the armor? L: Yeah R: It doesn't- it doesn't happen. So it's L: And we're talking about what you- what you're unteaching R: Yeah. L: You know, not what you're teaching. R: Defense mechanisms that might have L: 'cause that's the things that have to be unlearned. R: And I want to be clear on something. A lot of these defense mechanisms were things that may have saved the life of- of these people as children, you know, they may be L: Oh yeah R: incredibly valid defence mechanisms for real life but we are talking about the context of theater and I feel like it's really important to realize that when you bring somebody in and they have all these tools for dealing with the hostile world, sometimes you put them on a platform and you say "Okay, this is your playpen and you can just be here" and they've never done that before. L: So it's very, very, very difficult yeah. R: And I think that's where I came into it and that's why my unlearning was so fiercely de-armoring myself. L: Yeah. R: Everybody else, it seems- it seems like there's a real person that's not at that state underneath it. Maybe they've already done some of the work by the time I meet them, but I feel like I just need to knock the BS out of the way so I can get at the person who's in there and they're great and they always are. So yeah, I think that's- that's, for me, the answer. What about you? What did you have to unlearn in order to be able to do this work and what have you in your bit of teaching have to unteach? L: "What- what have I had a hard time unteaching?" R: hard time, hard time L: There are the cards by the way, if you want to be able to read them. R: I think it's more organic L: *sighs* R: and I don't have to go get my glasses if I just do it like I just did. L: Well, ah- When I looked at the questions. The things that popped into my head the "Something that I have a hard time unteaching" very specifically, I had an immediate thought, and it is nowhere near as profound R: Still valid L: As what you had to say on this topic because I- I haven't done a lot of teaching clown. I have assisted teaching, R: *Affirmative Noise* L: but I haven't done a lot of teaching of clown. I have done a lot of teaching of juggling R: Well, will you do me a favor and do two things? L: *Affirmative Noise* R: One, dispense with the apology and two, tell me the wisdom you learned from teaching juggling because I want to know. L: I don't have wisdom I learned from teaching juggling. I had something I a hard time unteaching. Listen to the question. R: Well, if I had only picked up my glasses. L: Something that I've had a hard time teachin- R: unteaching L: That I've had a hard time unteaching that I run into repetitively, a lot of people have a concept of how they think juggling works which is completely inaccurate but I understand why they get it. Because if you've ever looked at how I'm actually going to have to check myself- if you look at older cartoons because some more recent cartoons have actually learned how to animate juggling and that's not what I'm talking about. You have older cartoons or a still image that's depicting juggling? What you will see is three balls approximately equidistant from each other and movement lines that connect them into either a true circle or a- or a slight oval, but that is what you will see. You will see three juggling balls, or more if they're show choosing to show higher numbers juggling, just going around in a circle. R: That's a really hard juggling trick L: It- it does exist as a juggling trick. R: It's a half shower L: Yeah. It is not where one starts learning how to juggle. R: No L: Not at all, but so if somebody has tried to teach themselves how to juggle without the assistance of a book that teaches it or an instructional video and they've just sat there with juggling balls and they put some time into attempting to make this happen, then they will have not only put the idea that juggling goes around in a circle into their heads, they will have put it into their hands as well. R: So you have to unteach the muscle memory L: So you have to get them past the muscle memory of doing this circular pass of a single ball from one hand into the other hand and then back in a smaller one, which they won't necessarily have gotten in the type of way that one could escalate into a shower-like pattern but they will have this singular movement that goes from one hand to the other in a very particular way and I have to teach them to do something that looks almost opposite. R: Oh wow, yeah. L: Because more often than not they'll throw in a way that sort of goes- You're not throwing to the outside, but it seems like you're throwing to the outside, up and over towards catching it on the other side. R: I'm wishing we had the video here because you're making L: Yeah, this is where I have- I have R: some great gestures, yeah L: When really you have to do something that's more of an underhanded throw towards yourself R: That's a scooping motion. L: A scooping motion that goes down R: Not a sneaky throw. Not an underhanded throw. L: Not a throw- not- not a throw they scoops up and above, an under- an underhand throw so that you can great sort of a figure eight pattern which is how the typical juggling pattern goes and it's totally possible to get past this- this training that people will have- will have done for themselves but it is, it's just this major block that's right there, right off the start. It's very easily identifiable R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and relatively easily addressable, but it is difficult to actually undo that programming that people have done for themselves at the beginning of a juggling lesson session and it's something that will take extra time for people when they're trying to learn how to juggle. So that is like, the one thing that I've run into repeatedly where people have learned something, they've taught themselves something R: Which is awesome L: Which is awesome and can totally be used later as a- as a trick R: Well every mistake in juggling is a- is a trick you don't know really well yet. L: Absolutely everything can be- can be a trick in juggling and so, so that's- that is the one that came to mind immediately because I run into it so frequently. R: So are there other common, just 'cause I'm- I'm fascinated by this because I want to know if you have the same list I do. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: When you- when teaching juggling do you run into the same sets of problems? L: Yes, one hundred percent. R: What are your- what are- what are three- three common- things? L: Three common problems? R: Again, and I ask this for reason, I think- and we've never done a formal poll but I suspect about half of the people who listen to us are jugglers and are pretty good at it, the other half think they can't. L: It's very, very rare that somebody cannot juggle R: And- and that's what I'm saying. So I want you to give tips L: Yeah R: because our- our juggling friends have been nodding and smiling along, because they know. L: Yup R: but I want you to give your three- these are three gotchas L: So R: that you end up fixing. L: So we do actually have a instructional video on our website R: Oh wow, that is a- yeah I coul- I forgot it was there L: I mean it's- it's- it's from me with a ponytail. It's some time ago, but we do have it on our website. So if you are in the category of "think that you can't do this" there- there are reasons one might not be able to. They are incredibly rare, and it's probably worth giving it a shot. Um, top- top things I see people run into, one of which is I think that the top one is something that I like to address first thing in my- in how I teach, which is people are scared of dropping things. R: Oh yeah. L: Which is largely people are scared of getting things wrong. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: People are scared of being seen as failing, or are scared of failing. So you have to just- do you have to dispense with that because you are going to drop- drop things. You're gonna drop things a lot, all the time. That's how you progress. It's just part of- part of learning is you drop stuff. So you have to get people to that and you frequently have to come back to that again later because there is a point where when you bring two balls in, you have to get somebody to throw the second ball. R: Then again when because they get to the third ball. L: Because they're going to- and then again when they get to the third ball, because it doesn't- because you spend a lot of time learning what the pass looks like. What the- what the juggling throw looks like and feels like and how to do it, and you get that into your subconscious. You get that into your muscle memory but people get very hung up about whether they can, when they should, how to throw the additional ball when you get to that next level and that answer is "Just throw it". Make sure that there's nothing breakable of to the side where it might go careening because that's a legitimate thing that one should take into account but so long as there's not something that's going to be damaged? Just chuck it. Chuck the ball. Just- like- let- let you- put too much energy into it. Get it out of your hand because that's somewhere people get hung up is they'll end up just catching both balls, or however many balls there are in one hand and that doesn't progress you anywhere. Um R: That's a good piece of advice. So try. Basically throw- throw the ball. L: Throw the ball. R: Try L: Just- just- just- just throw it. R: What's the second one? L: Which is- which is- it's one of those places people put "just". It's so much harder than it fee- than than it seems like it should be, or that anybody who's done it for a long time feels like it is. It's so much harder to do it at that moment. R: You know I talk to- I talk to parents when we- when we, in the past, have taught juggling events. L: Yeah R: And the kids will do it and the parents will try and you'll see them have the problem and I'll lean over to them and going "You know how you let your kid go off and try something because you taught them how to do things so you can trust that when you set them off to go do it it'll go where they expect?" I tell them that and five minutes later they're throwing things because they realize they are in control of the throw. L: Yup R: It's all about control. It's all about feeling like you are in control. L: Yup R: But I- I solve every problem with philosophy because I think- I think that's how we- I think that's often how we do. What's your second? What's your second? L: I feel like that was two. R: Oh that may have been two. L: Um R: Try L: Though- though- though admittedly, they are- they are very, very closely connected. R: Well then, give us one more. L: Um R: One more tip for the- for the new juggler. L: One more tip for the new juggler. I've got another tip, but it- it's not answering the- the common problems so I'm gonna come back to it R: Okay L: Um, another common problem- *laughs* Okay, So I have a common problem that I have a solution that I've recommended that I always have to have a major caveat in order to actually give. R: Yeah, this is definitely the one we wanted to hear then. L: So, there is a tendency to throw away from yourself and this ends up developing a practice of walking and juggling, when you didn't necessarily intend to, and so you'll see people who start on one side of a room and they'll manage their juggling pattern, all the way to the other side of the room, but they were supposed to be in one place. R: So do you stand them in front of a cliff? *laughs* I'm kidding. L: So- so, in front of a wall is recommended. R: Yes L: That is a- that is the standard, go-to R: Safer than a cliff L: Much safer than a cliff. So you have somebody stand in front of a wall. That's- that's the go-to way I've always heard it taught, but that is not what what solved it for me. So I always share what solved for me with this one additional- uh, additional piece. What solved it for me was to- was to internalize the concept that I'm just going to throw the balls at my face and trust that my internal sense of self-preservation would engage, and so instead of throwing it away from my body or at my face I would end up in that middle plane that we're- that we're aiming for. R: Can I- can I make a quick sidebar to friends who might share something with me? Which is that I have a bit of self loathing and so this may not wo- and did not in fact work for me when you gave me this piece of advice? L: And this was where I say, I don't believe I have the same tuning on my self preservation instincts now R: *laughs* L: that I did when I was teaching myself to juggle as a, I don't know ten year old? Um, so your mileage may very much vary. Use soft juggling balls if attempting this method. Um, so that's- that's the other one that I see- I see a lot. Is the R: Okay. L: The- the walking and juggling. Um R: You wanna throw your last tip L: One additional tip R: and then I can hit you with the other half of this question? L: One additional tip is, you're going to drop things a lot, if running after juggling balls is something that's a concern, one, use soft juggling balls. They land R: bean bags L: and stay where they are. Bean bags are fantastic. Two, if you don't want have to expand the energy of going all the way to the floor to retrieve you juggling balls, juggling in front of a bed R: Oh yeah L: is a great option. R: Unless you just L: So you just, you face- you face your bed and you juggle and it actually works to- to help with both of the problems, of the wandering away juggling balls R: because you hit your shins on the bed. L: walking away, because you'll hit your shins on the bed- you can't walk forward and you're only going to have to retrieve them from bed height. R: I will say that learning to juggle knives this way? Non-optimal. L: No, that's gonna have- that's gonna have some drawbacks. R: You have- you've got some other problems, so I have- I do have to get you with the other half of this. I'm going to make make you not talk about juggling. What did you have to unlearn yourself? L: "How about unlearning" things- R: your clown L: things I had a hard time unlearning R: As a clown perhaps L: As a clown. Um, I found myself leaning into one of the things that I have since done some work to unlearn because one of the things that is notable about Jane is that she is kind of rules obsessed and that is because I am somewhat obsessed with the rules and expectations and what's appropriate and what's not appropriate in ways that do not serve me in clown work. Um, and so I've- I've had to get past a lot of that and mostly I found myself getting past it by just leaning in hard and making it the thing that causes my clown problems. R: That's interesting. So, so rather than rather than embracing a- a little anarchy you- you just let yourself be led into danger that way. You didn't actually unlearn it then. Both: *laugh* R: You haven't unlearned a thing have you? L: Oh, I've unlearned many things. R: Such as? L: Well that was something I had a hard time unlearning! R: But you haven't if you're using it to get into trouble, which is great, you haven't unlearned it, you've just maximized it L: I think- I think that I've- I've taken many steps towards unlearning it both in my actual life and R: Oh yeah, you're not that way as a person which is why it's funny L: And I don't think that- I think that Chadwick is very concerned with what people think of him but he is not nearly as concerned with- with what the rules are R: Hmn L: in the way that- that Jane is and the way that I think I struggled with. So I think there's an argument that that's growth. R: and yet, you're still unlearning. L: I'm still working on that one. R: I think, as a person who's been in the room through you doing a lot of learning, whether I was teaching or I was just there, I will say you have- you have come a long way and you have learned a lot and I think if- you've learned great things. I do think there's a real gift of finding those things that you are most vulnerable about and most a mess about and really leaning into them as a source of what's funny because the truth is learning to mock yourself is where a lot of the comedy that's universal in this work lives. The fact that we can- the fact that we can make fun of you "Oh, you followed the rules so well that you've walked off a cliff" is- is something that we can- we can all have a chuckle about because also it- it- the only one that it- it- it punches at is yourself. L: Oh yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. R: and not in a- not in a damaging way, in- in an exploring comedy way. L: Yes R: Well I think that's- I think we'll you off the hook then L: Okay R: You've- you've answered the question well and many juggling tips. We'll- we'll put some- We'll put a link to the- the very ancient juggling video and perhaps L: Yeah R: perhaps when we have a little time and space you can film us a new tutorial. L: That as a good idea. R: I'll put the challenge to you. Friends, if you're listening and you want to see this tutorial, send Liam of bunch of messages asking where it is. L: *laughs softly* R: Cause I know, I know that's what is the motivator. Is that- that- L: It's true, that will motivate me faster than anything else. R: Yeah, that's a whole thing. Ooh, I have the next card and it's a long-y. L: Oh, it's one of the long ones. R: It's a long-y, as they say, this isn't one of those like one sentence, so bear with me. "Thanks to technology performances went from a local fleeting moment to something that could be recorded and shared to many. How has that affected what you do? Is the "unseen audience" of the internet one you consider in performances?" As you answer this question on a podcast to your friends who are here in the room listening. L: Is that- is- is the "unseen audience" of the internet something I consider? Ah, One hundred percent. Yes. In fact we've done- we've done some work specifically for the internet and *laughs* and at some point Jane was informed that "everyone else" was on the other side of the camera. This was beautiful thing to see her reaction to. R: "How did they all fit in there?" L: She did not say that. R: But that's what I'm thinking L: She did understand that they're- they're through the camera but it- it was very nebulous, it was very overwhelming but she was also very excited to get to share what she was doing with so many people R: Hmn L: I think that- I think that essentially...audiences have a tendency to kind of become a single being and that's not to say that they're not made up of a lot of individual beings, it's just behaviorally and how one interacts with an audience is to consider them a single unit unless there's a moment in which they're not. R: Okay L: Um because sometimes you'll have a- an audience member who you're interacting with and then they're now not much part of the audience as R: They're part of the show L: part of the show. So that changes things, and sometimes there's that one person with the really distinctive laugh and now we all have a moment because everyone laughed and then everyone took a moment of laughing about the fact that this additional person has this particularly distinctive laugh. R: Hmn L: That sort of thing happens. So there are these moments where the individuals are highlighted but for the most part they're somewhat treated as a- as a singular organism and I think that the internet, the online audience, the later audience, is treated in that same way. Is that they are a singular organism represented by the camera and so that camera is either part of the larger organism in the room of the audience or it's set somehow apart from the larger audience that's in the room, in which case it's a secondary person off to the side, but it's still very much treated as a- as an individual and I think that past acknowledging that being being in the room? You have to let everything else go. You can't think about the fact that this is gonna be on the internet for all time. R: Oof L: You can't let that get into what you're thinking it has to simply still be the moment in the room with our internet friend, with our wonderful group of friends who are currently being represented by the microphone sitting next to me, that's- you have to just be there with the people who are going to be there later and that can open you up to the possibility of- of, you know, there are things that happen in a moment that don't necessarily look amazing when isolated to that moment when you're not in the room and you just have to accept that sometimes those are going to exist and those are going to be on the record and own that sometimes the moments aren't amazing, but I think if you can do that it all works out and you can- I think there's a difference to the feeling when a camera's being acknowledged, when the people on the internet are being acknowledged, even if they're not being spoken to, being obviously pointed out, you can tell when you're part of the audience when you're watching a video as opposed to when you're somehow completely separate from the audience while watching a video. R: It's an interesting sort of fourth wall, fifth wall L: Fifth wall there's like a fifth wall, yeah R: and I've- I've seen- I've seen some- ah, I've seen some theater where you- you know, whether or not it's breaking the fourth wall, there's a difference between watching theater that is either breaking the fourth wall or not and you feel like that was filmed and you're set back from it and then there's stuff where you're a part of the audience, whether it's by the content or the quality of filming and I have questions as to whether or not it lives in the performers options or the directors options at that point that's a- that's a mixed thing L: That's a lot of details yeah. R: So yeah, that's a that's an interesting take. L: So that's- that's my personal opinion about it. So- R: I- I come at this a little differently L: Okay so- so for you, I'm going to say "How does- how has the technology and things being recorded and shared to many affected what you do and is the "unseen audience" of the internet one you consider in performances?" R: *in a voice like an old prospector* Well, in the day when I began my performanceing career, you may have noticed that I am somewhat older of time and back then we had only recently discovered fire and so as shocking is might seem, not everyone had the 'gram to put their photos upon and not everyone had the clay tablet. *drops to normal voice* No, it wasn't that bad, but it was close. L: *laughs* I was gonna say. R: It wasn't that long ago. L: You're not that old. R: I'm getting there. I'm hoping. L: One day R: but what I- what I will say was at the very start of my performing career, ubiquitous internet in people's pockets was just beginning to happen L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and because of that it was still in the hands of people with means, so it wasn't as- it wasn't as immediately there and that that evolved very quickly because it, you know, it was a phenomenon. I got to watch that happen while I was performing and so we went from you know, having a moment with people to getting a selfie. It became the- the currency of meeting someone, became the selfie with them. L: Ah yes R: Very quickly, even though we have had photographs and we have evidence of- of selfies going back to the mechanical camera L: Oh yeah. R: I mean there's some fascinating stuff there but this- this idea of- of we're gonna take a picture with someone, you know, prove- we were there sort of thing became more about that than it became about the- the in-person presence. So that's- that's one side of it, but the thing that happened pretty early on is I had a weird split experience. At sort of the beginning of the dot com boom I got into a situation where I got to have a- a weekly variety show and being smart kids of tomorrow we thought we would put that on the internet. We had no idea how much work that was gonna be, let's just leave all of that out of this discussion. L: *laughs* R: because it was a tremendous amount of additional effort because of it, but what we did is we put a few things on the table. One of the rules of the show was and it was a rule of the show, you would be asked to put your camera away. If you had a camera out and you weren't part of the photography staff you'd be asked to put it away if it was a cellphone you'd be asked to turn it off. We usually had an opening invocation begging you to please do this and it was early enough that that was novel enough the people were like "Oh yeah, manners, I should do that." and I think now you can't get away with it. I mean you might be able to, I've seen a few L: You can get- you can get people to say "put it away" R: but what we did in return was we told everyone, and we told them this directly, we said "Look, we have professional photographers and every photo was going to be given away" and it was all going under a creative commons license. You could have every photo from the show and it would be done professionally. You would have the entire show filmed and all of that content would be downloadable. So there was no reason for you to do anything other than put it away and enjoy the show. So the first thing that happened was we took people out of the experiencing the material through a lens and they were in the room to experience it and that was something we didn't realize was gonna be as big a deal as it was. We thought "Oh, this is just how theater is done" we didn't realize we were losing that and it's desperately needed. *knocking on wood* L: Yeah R: and now it's become a component in a lot theater we build. The other thing that happened was the way we set up the room, and was a quirk of the way we set up the room in the early days and we kept it when we moved the show, was the camera was dead center and slightly above and what it meant was I had the front row, as the MC, I had the, you know, the house left, the house right, and I had the back, but I could also go dead center and at dead center I'm looking into the video camera L: Yeah R: and what this meant was it if I chose to never go to it unless I was speaking to it, I had an additional character in the audience I was speaking to that was the internet L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and so rather- and- and this is the beginning of inevitable clown, because it was variety. There was no fourth wall, we weren't pretending that the audience wasn't there. I came out and address the audience, the audience- we'd have a nice heckle moment, I'd look at the camera and go, you know, and I would- I would have a take to the camera and I would be like "Yeah, you know, we're- we're like that" or "I'd like to apologize, I mean, to the internet I would like to apologise on behalf of all of us because we shouldn't be doing this" You know, and I would- and none of this stuff, unless it was comedy gold, ever made it on the internet. A lot of that got edited away but there are, there are gems, there's a playlist of gems of those things that exists. Which were mo- just unbelievably weird extra moments that happened in the show L: Just absolute silliness. R: That were- that were improvised and what it meant was there was an additional layer of the internet as an audience, as a character, and that really got into my head as a fundamentally different way to approach it, was rather than try to pretend it's not there, just enjoy the fact that it was and realize that I have the option. I can have a conversation with Liam or I can turn and have a conversation with the audience and I- or I can have a conversation with the imaginary people over there and I realize that in my own comedic work, in my own creative work, I very often will have imaginary characters I'm talking to on stage or interacting with onstage and they, in the same way that they have a consistency of where they are and how tall they are, those things have a reality and by giving them that embodiment I think it changes the shape of how you interact with them. Because of that I've always thought about it in terms of like where- where's it gonna be and how are we gonna deal with that. When other people build shows and drop me into it I don't really have that choice, so L: Yeah R: taking a take to a camera at that point just isn't something you're gonna do unless it's a still camera, where you're going to give them that heartfelt try to be a person moment that no other performer gets and- and it's very funny because I'll hear from a lot of performers who aren't clowns, you know, "We do all of these amazing stunts and you just are taking selfies with people and just smiling at the camera. Why, why do you get away with that?" and the answer is, um, 'cause I'm very lazy and I'm very smart and I figured out L: It's not laziness R: It's not laziness I figured out how to- how to work that equation so people are having heartfelt moments. I think that has been the greatest guidepost in how I've approached any time we had to do with multimedia component, was to go ahead and own that it's there. If we have a protect- a projection monitor in a show, and we have, I'm gonna find a way to- to acknowledge that L: yeah R: and I think it's also funny because audiences feel better about things that are acknowledged. L: Oh always. R: So I walk- if I walk out on stage and there's a big video projection of me on stage and I look over and I do like "the- you know, the" I just gestured, you can't see it friends, but I wiggle my fingers and I look at the- I look at the screen and a look at it and I have the moment of looking at the audience and realizing "Oh, I'm on a camera. Hi. I'm that- okay, you can see me there. Great." Once I have that established, well now everybody's not rubber necking over to it because there's movement there. We've acknowledged it. It's dealt with. L: Yeah, you're either watching it on the screen because R: you're L: that's the way you can see it or you're Both: watching the stage R: and it's just additional information and I feel- I feel like once you bring things into the room honestly, they're far easier to deal with. I had a- a couple of different shows where we've had follow spots, Old-style variety follow spots L: I've been those spots. R: You've been one of them and we- we train those people like puppeteers. We taught them to breathe, we taught them to move, we taught them to respond like puppeteers, because invariably movement attracts attention, so make that a part of your show. Make it- make of a spotlight- going "Guys, you got it?" and make the spotlights nod, bounce up and down a little, and it- it brings life into the room. L: Yeah R: and so you're either at the mercy of technology or you're just, you're just sort of knitting it into what you do and accepting that it's there. All of that said, I look at a lot of video content where people are talking heads talking the cameras and I've done a tiny bit of that myself and it's weird because then you're back to talking to an audience. You're imagining they're there and you're projecting through the lens to them L: Yes R: but you're not going meta and thinking about it as something separate, it just is the truth and reality. L: Oh, also true, yeah. R: So I think it is sort of the same- the same response taken to an extreme, but it for theater makers who aren't thinking about cameras, that sounds revolutionary, and to you know, video makers they're going "oh yeah, of course. I'm talking to my camera". So I think it's a- it's kind of a mixed bag. L: Alright, well I think that- I think answers it. R: I think we like- we hammered on it L: I think we've- I think we've got it R: I think we have hammered it a few times L: Okay. The next question R: Oh, there's more. L: There are more yes. R: Oh good, it's very exciting L: This is another one of the longer ones R: I like long questions. I get to meander. L: "Heyo, I've been curious about artistic definitions on the delineated mediums of clown. Like, I'm curious about getting into mime and feel like I don't have a full grasp on talking clowns yet and how do I go about being a jester and a mime? They're forming in my mind as distinct characters." R: Ohh, these are always the tough questions because that is written by someone who is studying the work and now I'm on the spot because I'm not just chatting with my friends I have to render a sort of coherent opinion. *laughs* L: yes, but you're still just chatting with friends R: but I am still chatting with friends. I'm just- I'm putting- I'm owning the pressure it's in the room. Um, okay. My background, I started out as a silent performer, which was sort of ironic because I also very quickly ended up with a variety show where I was the M.C. so I ended up with a talking head persona that didn't do much and a silent clown and these two things were very separate for very long time they sort of eventually collided at speed and I just became L: What resulted. R: What- the result, L: yes R: *laughs* there's no good answer. Well, if a train another- it's a train wreck, I think is word I'm looking for, but what I will say is this. To me, and this is again, this is my opinion, not- not a hard fact because there are people who are going to tell you that mime is one thing, and clown is another thing and this is another thing. All of these things are techniques at their core. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Um, I don't personally see a real distinct- distinction of what I would call a jester. To my mind, the jester is something that plays against the king which makes me think of buffon-style clown where I'm- I'm mocking things perhaps? Which is slightly different than the more innocent or pathos driven clown? The sort of child-like quality. L: I could see that, that being a distinction R: So like those are different things, but again these are techniques, they're styles of clowning. Mime is a set of techniques. Clown as a set of- at the- the rough, procedural level, are a set of techniques for- for doing certain things and ways of thinking about things. So I don't necessarily think they're required to be different characters. There are very chatty clowns and there are completely silent clowns. My clown now doesn't speak unless they need to and if so they speak and maybe they don't shut up. They did- L: Once you get them going. R: That's L: Yeah R: That can be a thing. Ah, a lot of ma- a lot of masks, if the mask is capable of speaking they're very talkative because powers them up. Ah, a full face mask character L: Can't R: They don't speak, that's sort of the- the rules of that game, is if the mouth is covered the- the- the character does not speak. I would say, the only- I mean play with them separately, play with them together. Challenge them often, but to me the- the danger I would get into, and I ran into this that's why I'm speaking from a- this is a danger, is if you keep them too deeply separate you run into the question of "What do I do when I need to talk?" and I remember when I was studying with DeCastro, she noticed that I would very often go to a non verbal performing place and again we're talking- we're talking about choices on stage. L: Yeah R: and I would be in a situation where she would say "Is there something, you know, she- is there something wrong, biologically, physically, she would ask of this person who's in front of me, the character. She would ask them, "Is this that?" they would say "No" and then the- and then she said and then "That means you need to speak when you're spoken to. If someone says "Hello" to you, you don't wave back and then shrug. You say "Hello" 'cause otherwise you're rude. If your goal is to be rude, that's a choice but again we're talking about engaging the appropriate technique for the appropriate situation" I had to do a lot of work to integrate the parts of my brain and my persona that spoke and the parts that moved and it became this thing where I could be very fluid right up until I had to say something then I would strike a pose and I had to break that so I could move across a room while speaking. That actually took practice, just like juggling while riding a unicycle. I had to take two disparate skills and put them together so I could do them together and find the weird intermeshings in my brain and my body that allow for it. L: It's amazing what things actually need practice yeah, R: Oh yeah, the- you know, you you can- you can do something but it makes your foot move weird and you didn't know that. Or you makes- a, one of my favorite ones is when you bounce your- everybody can try this, if you bounce your shoulders up and down eventually your cheek will twitch *mouth sound with cheek twitch* R: There's a point when you do it enough times that one of your cheeks will twitch and it's so strange. *sounds of shoulders bouncing* R: and it's happening. L: Is it? 'cause I R: a little tiny- a little tiny bit L: I didn't- I didn't feel it R: it- eventually it will happen, especially if you jump up and down. Really do it, jump up and down. You'll- you'll eventually feel it, Um and handstand instructors will tell you always smile, one because it looks nice on stage and two because watching people's faces twitch just looks odd, and you have to loosen your shoulders up to do something. Ah- the- the point, going back to it is, play with them separately is great because they are individual skills and each one deserves its time, but don't let that limit a choice of character because I think if you have a silent character who just happens to not feel safe enough to say anything yet, you may be missing out on some beautiful poetry and if you have a talking head that would be more graceful if they just shut up, then you need to give that a chance to happen. There's also the talking head tends to over explain L: because sometimes you should show rather than say. R: Exactly, and on the other side you have this character that really need to say a word to land the point, L: And the only thing that coming to my mind right now is um, in one of our past episodes, I don't remember how far back I mentioned that I hadn't actually seen any Avner the Eccentric's work R: Oh yes L: Um, I have since gotten the opportunity to see some video of- of his work and ah- discovered that apparently, one possible solution R: To being a mime L: To being a mime but needing to actually ask some questions is to put a kazoo in your mouth and then speak with a kazoo in your mouth, you know. R: Like mimes do. L: Like mimes do. R: and I feel- I feel if it's good- if it's good enough for Av- for Avner, you- you're fine. So L: And I'm not saying that's the technique, it's just whats- it's R: It's what's L: it's what's R: It's worth- L: It's what's jumping immediately to mind. R: It's v- it's a very funny moment. I will- I will end on this and then pass it to you, but I will- I will end on this, for- for you who is asking, if you- if you have these separate personas and you feel that they're separate, go ahead and trust your instinct. If you feel something is true, it must be true. You might have, you know, you might have thirty of them, you might have two, you might only have one and sometimes we have a funny tendency, if we ah- want to focus on one thing we sift everything else into another pile, so it looks like we have two, so we can work on one thing and then we later go back and we put them back together. I've seen a lot of clowns very quickly develop a cute flirty baby and then later develop a negative character and- and the- and the performer will always be like "and I have this other perform- persona" and I'm like like, that's possible, or is- is it possible that you have more than one emotion and they go "No!" and then a few weeks later they come back in go "Maybe!" L: *laughs* R: and- and I've learned a lot watching that particular dance happen in the lab, so I will say let 'em be separate, but if they start looking like two sides of the same coin? You may have one coin in your pocket. So, you should flip it, and spin it and see what it does. Challenge it. Challenge, and- and more importantly challenge your mime character to be- to give a speech. Either it will be hilarious or you'll learn something. I don't know which and please get your silent characters to dance. Alright. L: You mean your speaking characters to dance? R: That's what I- yes, your speaking characters need to dance and your silent characters need to give speeches and if that means one is clumsy and ta- and talking about it while it's happening and the other one is making in fact jest- *sounds of fabric moving* I'm looking forward to seeing with that sort of like- I've done a bit from The Great Dictator without any sound, what goes into the- the show notes for that. That's a great series of a- series of moments, enjoy. *laughs* L: We'll see. We'll see how that turns out. R: I don't know. It may have been mush. I hope- I'll say this, if- if- if it's you who asked this question or- or this question is relevant to you and I haven't covered it or you have more, reach out to me whether it's, you know for the channel and- or-the podcast or whether it's just to have a conversation with me about this, because I think this is a meaty topic and it's likely to be very personal L: Yeah R: because the- the stuff- like the stuff for me, it boiled down to I accidentally separated those things and no one encouraged me not to till- till much later and it was probably a good ten years of performing before I put those things together and once I did, I was so much better at my job because I had more than one option. L: Yeah, yeah. R: And I think that's- that's the key thing. All right, for you and I'm going to say I love that somebody said "Heyo" this- this is how- this is very conversational card. L: Yeah R: "I've been curious about the artistic definitions on the delineated mediums of clown, like I'm curious-" they even wrote "like", I love that "like I'm curious about getting into mime and- and feel like I- I don't have a full grasp on talking clowns yet and how do I go about being a jester and a mime? They're forming in my mind as distinct characters" L: So I agree a lot with what you've already said on this, which is if they're forming as separate characters for you, run with that and challenge that and find where- where those moments are. Whether- whether that needs to be challenged or needs be run with is always a tricky thing. I'm suddenly reminded that I've- I've performed as a jester and I had forgotten that was a thing I did. Um R: Just like "oh yeah" L: Like "Oh wait, I've done jester make up." Ah- R: It was stilt walking, wasn't it? L: Yes I was a stilt walking ju- jester R: dancing jester yeah, L: Um, With a- with a very classical white face makeup and a very silly hat. I have several very silly hats. R: It's a requirement of the job L: Yes, but I've got specifically the jester style hat, of which I have several, some with bells, some without. Um and I think that- that one's an interesting- the concept of jester is an interesting one to be playing with because I think- I'm trying to think of where one would find that, or expect to see it, or get the opportunity to play it outside of the range of renn faire or themed party. Which doesn't mean that is not worth exploring, to be very clear, there are some amaz- really talented people working the renn faire circuit and I could totally see somebody being a jester there um, and doing, honestly I could see somebody doing just what I would simply think of as clown work with the themed costume R: I was gonna say I think- I think I really need a definition of what is meant by jester. L: Yeah, so I have a- I have a tough time with with figuring out what that- what that mean means to the person asking, there is a strong argument for *floor creaks* R: I swear that was the floor creeking L: *laughs* R: I know what it sounded like L: It sounded like the floor creaking it, it just happened to happen directly underneath you. Um, don't worry it's fine. R: I'm sorry to interrupt with my creaky floor L: That's okay R: and my creaky body L: I think there is some argument for the possibility that that's closer to bufon which I've got very little experience with so I won't particularly touch on- ah, but the skills are skill sets, I've heard and we've mentioned on the podcast before the- the philosophy that "mime is the ballet of clown" R: You just quoted a clown that I've met that you haven't. That's fantastic. L: Yep this is how this works. R: You're stealing my work, L: Um R: that I stole from somebody else. L: Exactly. That is- that is clown. R: That is L: Um, where- because I think a lot of what mime is is distilling a lot of the work and it helps you focus on the small details that can get a point across and the body work R: It's- it's about it's about eloquence and gesture and focus, it's not about not talking. L: Yeah R: I've seen mimes talk and make noise L: Oh there are lots of mimes that- that talk and make noise in fact, um I- We've- I don't know if I've seen this in performance but I think that I have. I am from having one of those moments where I'm going "I can't verify this" R: You know, if you haven't, that means you should perform it. L: but well, R: and if you have, you should steal it, and then perform it. L: What I was going to say was that the guy responsible for why everyone thinks of mime and puts hands in front of their face making it look like there's a wall in front of them, has interrupted his own show to note that he's allowed to make noise. R: Yes, Tony Montanaro, absolutely. L: And I was- I thought that I had seen that. R: It's a very funny gag because everybody walks in the room expecting him to be very serious and beautiful and not funny, he's one of the funniest human beings who ever lived. L: He's hilarious R: yeah L: and he's an amazing mime and very frequently, like I've seen multiple points in there where he made sound effects. R: Sure L: and then additionally hit the moment where he actually commented on it, I- So, people like making boxes for things and they can be useful and it's also really useful to take stuff out of one box and put it in another box because you want to, because you feel like it fits, because it doesn't fit and that's fun too. Play with things. Don't get overly fixated with what the expected rules are, says the person who just owned that one of the hardest things to unlearn for myself was to get past an overly focus of what the rules are. R: It seems as if our friends have sent you a message from on high. I am- I'm going to let you off the hook because I think you've answe- you've answered it well. I have- I have a question that I think is- is a good one for you. L: You have a question. You have a question or you have someone's question. R: Hang on, *muted slapping sound* now that my hand is top of it, I am in possession of it. So I have a question for you that I think is good one L: Okay R: Did I have a thought or even fully know what's on this card? No. I am just- I'm present, that's what I am. L: Okay. R: "I don't know if you're- you've already covered it but I'd like your take on the tired 'humor is dead because we can't be mean to other people anymore lest we get cancelled'" L: Ooooh R: Settle in for this one. L: Oh this one's- this one's a doozy. R: Is it? L: Umm, it is and it isn't. I mean I can make this incredibly short and say the entire concept that you can't do humor if you're afraid of being cancelled is *redacted swear word*. That's the really fast answer. R: That was fast, thanks for the question. L: Um R: Wanna- wanna dignify- L: but I will expand. R: Thank you L: but I will expand on that. Um, I mentioned earlier that there are gonna be moments that don't end up being as funny in review, outside of context, because they got caught on film, which can include being potentially hurtful to people who weren't present in that moment and thus weren't considered by the person who is performing. This is a complicated thing to deal with for a lot of people, mostly because no one likes being told that it's not okay for you to have done the thing that you did, that every in the room agreed was funny, but the reality is the internet does exist. Particularly if you are intentionally putting something on the internet, you should have considered the fact that anybody and everybody can then see it and if you didn't, and you hurt somebody, you hurt somebody. Your intent doesn't matter at that point. What matters at that point is that you say you're sorry, because you hurt someone. The difference now, versus the past, about what a comedian could say because most of, I think, this particular statement, I haven't heard it nearly as much from comedic performers, as I've heard it coming from the realm of stand up comedy where I've heard it being aimed at saying hateful things about me and other people like me. So I'm gonna go ahead and own that, one hundred percent. The difference is people are more able to tell you that what you're saying is hurtful now than they have been in the past. It doesn't mean harm wasn't being caused in the past. It does arguably make some argument for "People didn't know harm was being made- done in the past." Which may make some excuse for some actions in the past. Maybe, I think that's up for debate. But if you have been told that would you thought was funny in the room, that what you brought to the table under the label of "comedy" was mean and hurtful and caused pain, then you need to sit with that until you can hear what was said. If you then decide that you don't agree that it "actually hurtful", that's your decision to make. I personally think it's probably the wrong one but there are ways and ways and ways to make jokes about a topic. There are ways and ways and ways to make jokes that include a topic but aren't necessarily about it. Since I've already brought up that anti-trans statements are being made as "comedy" I'm going to say I have also heard some really fantastic stand up comedy about trans people and the issues they're dealing with and the issues being a family member of someone who is trans have. I heard a delightful one that isn't mine to retell, talking about the complications of being in a multiracial household and somebody picked a name that the rest of the family had a hard time with them having, not with them having a problem with that person's gender or wanting them not to be themselves just saying "That name is really not what we would have had you have, and we're not sure we're comfortable with it" and being told by the person who was telling it about their family. It was funny because it was clear that there was love and respect involved from everybody involved, and that came across in how the person who was telling the story told it and I sat there for a moment after hearing it going "See? It's not that hard! You just don't tell stories about trans people if you don't have a story to tell about the people you love who happen to be trans!" because that's who we tell stories that are funny about. Ourselves and the people who we love and care about because we're all human and we all do silly things that don't necessarily make sense or that add complication to each other's lives and those moments are relatable and funny because they're relatable and you don't need to be punching at people to make things seem funny. You may get a laugh in a room, you may get a laugh in a room because everybody's now uncomfortable because you've made them feel unsafe and they have still had to exhale in a way that makes them think that they're gonna get out of the situation okay. An uncomfortable giggle will happen in that situation. R: Yeah L: That does not mean you are funny. That means everyone is trying to figure out how to leave without anybody getting hurt. R: That's not comedy. L: That's not comedy. R: No. L: You weren't doing comedy. So, if you feel like you can't do comedy without getting cancelled. One, I assure you the "I got cancelled tour" is a thing that people have successfully done because there are people who want to hear other people put down. So if your problem is that you're worried about your finances, but you're are already an established comedian, it's not a real concern and anybody who's claiming that it is is lying, and if you actually want to do comedy and you don't have an interest in hurting people, listen when people tell you that what you did was hurtful. You won't get cancelled if your reaction is "I'm sorry, that was my bad, I'm gonna cut that from any future sets" people don't actually get cancelled when that's their response. When their response sounds canned and they say they're gonna keep doing what they were doing and they didn't know it was harmful, people hear that it's canned and that somebody told you you needed to say it but if you actually think for a minute and respond honestly, it's not a concern. People are willing to forgive you. People are willing to forgive a lot when they can feel that you mean it when you say you're sorry, and they can feel that. So, go for it. Say the joke that you're not one hundred percent sure is gonna be read right but also listen when people say "Oh yeah, no. That one does not come across okay". That's what I have to say about it. R: Thank you. I think that was a- I think it's a thing we need to- we need to share more often. I think- I think we do. I don't even want to add a word to your take because I think you landed the plane beautifully. L: Okay, then I guess I have to- I have to go on to the next question. R: No, no I mean, I'll L: I mean R: I have a L: answer the question R: I have a take, I mean as to- as to L: as to exactly what I just said R: what you what you brought, yes L: In that case, I'll ask you the question. R: Simply put, there are- there are a high risk choices and low risk choices in comedy. A low risk choice is always going to get a laugh, a high risk choice may not work at all. Those things are formulaic. Comedy is done in beats and rhythms, anything else may not even be comedy. What I know is that despite the fact that I am a tragically depressed sad person who doesn't like funny things, I manage to laugh several times a day and most of the time those laughs do not involve someone being punched down at. They're just, being human is silly and funny. It's really, if you think about how gross and strange and weird being human is, you can have a lot of fun with that without ever having to attack anyone for who they are. I think you hit it exactly right about cancel culture L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Ah- being, a lot of stand up comedy is looking for a reaction and what they- they want a reaction and a paycheck. And when they- when they get- and I've long made it clear that I'm not a huge fan of a form L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I've suffered a lot of bad stand up and you know, one of the ways I got rid of a lot of stand up in a show was I told them that it'd be going on the internet and wouldn't be deleted and they didn't bring their low risk choices, and the only time we, you know we started- L: Their high risk choices? R: I mean yeah, their high risk choices. They- they would- they would- their low- their low brow humour is what I mean. They would bring something a little ha- a little more polished and a little more brilliant because they knew "Oh, I might get caught" and so I think some of it just simply that, they- the laziness comes into it the other thing is a lot of stand up comedy seems to boil down to escalation, like so many things. When you- you know, I always remember at one point there was a- a clown teacher I was studying with and we walked in, and we sat and he was looking on his phone. He was sitting like- an- like he was sitting in the throne and he had his phone in his hand and finally we are we're like "Can we get on with it?" "God, he's on his phone" and we were all sort of muttering to ourselves. He says "I am looking at the greatest clowns in the world. Every single one of them as my pocket, a click away. You will be compared to them. Go." and it was really sobering to realize that that's where the internet has done. Is its shown us- we've gotten so much that everything has to be escalated, and I think a lot of comedy has gone to this because the only place you can go- If you think about Lenny Bruce to the- a- you know, the average open mike night, all we've got on it is more escalation. The brilliance was already done. L: Hmn R: You know, if you take- there's any comedian you wanna- you wanna take who had a shocking take L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You know, whoever it is, whoever your- your greats are. Their- their takes were shocking because the first time it was done, we'd never heard anything like that before. We were aghast that it had been said. Then the next person who took the stage had to top it. Well, if all you have is your words then you have to top with more. You either- you know, you- you can't bring more humanity so you bring more volume L: hmn R: and if it's tinged with sarcasm or hate, that quickly escalates and being a crappy person is your only move. So I think a lot of the problem is the problem of the form escalating. If we're talking about silly human tricks, if we're talking about juggling well then it's "How many can you throw the air" but if we're talking about silly poetic human things and the little tricks we do that are silly? They never get tired and they never have to escalate. They can just be funny because they're funny L: yeah R: Watching someone take a pie to the face can either be a cruelty or an accident or funny depending on how it's approached and whether or not that berates someone in the process. That's a whole separate topic. I will say that we mentioned buffon earlier L: *Affirmative Noise* R: buffon's superpower is the ability to be repugnant for a purpose. You become something so repugnant that you're able to cast a light on that type of person. It's a dangerous, high risk game because it doesn't always work, but when it does it moves mountains L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and so there's a place for it, but I don't think anybody coming into the work, unless that's just absolutely what they're about, needs to go there and if they've- if that's what they're about, they'll know and they'll go there. L: Yeah R: That doesn't mean being cringey and gross. That means being surgical and precise and you're hurting no one on the way except for the thing you're trying to attack. And then we'll know who you- and then, this is it, you reveal yourself. We know what you're about, that may be that you're a folk hero and it may be that you're a villain. We'll know. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and you won't be able to take that back. Do I think comedy is still possible without cancellation? Yeah. I also think that people get bored really quick. We want- we want escalation. We want to get mad about things. We want to rage about it on the news and then we want to move onto the next thing we're mad and outraged about. L: There is tendency that way. R: And so, for one thing is unf- and it's unfortunate, when somebody does something terrible we'll move onto the next terrible thing to complain about. You don't tend to do that when someone does something really nice. We don't go "Oh, let's look for the next really nice thing" because just not how we're wired. It's one of the flaws in our system. So do I think cancellation is real? Absolutely. As we yet- it's a tool, because I think we should stop doing things L: Yeah R: that are crappy. I really do L: Yeah, it's a social tool. R: but I- but do I also think that it's become a- it's become a catchphrase for "Oh I got caught for being crappy"? Yeah, I do and I don't think you need to go there. So that's- that's my take. I've watched hours of comedy that have nothing to do with this. Which was in no risk of this that was enrapturing and genuinely funny and heartwarming, or not sometimes it was just gross. It didn't attack anyone. L: Yeah, it's totally possible to do. R: So yeah, I would say- I would say that's about- that's about the content you picked. So do I think cancellation's a problem? It can be. But I'd really sit down and ask yourself "What did you pick?" and "Why?". That's the last- that's- that's the last thought. "Why?" Yeah. L: Yup. R: Is that the last question I'm seeing right now? L: and yes we are- we are to our final question of the n- of the episode. R: The episode, the night you going to say L: I was going to say the night R: but it's very late and it's become early. I see the beginnings of sunlight. L: Yes R: Which is beautiful. Thank you for spending the evening and the night with us. Ah, we went in the woods a bit. L: We did a little bit. R: I like it, no, I like it. I think it's- I think it's good. I think it's what people come for and I also think it's what I enjoy, which is you know, we- we bang it around. We don't always have a really- a measured answer. Sometimes I- you know, I think people come to us with a question and I often think they don't really want our definitive answer, I think they just want us to talk about it. L: I think that's okay. R: That's the thing people tell me. L: Yeah, your question can be a theme. R: I worry L: That's fine. R: I have- I admit, I always have a worry. Whenever someone hands us one of these really h- we get 'em occasionally, these really chewy questions that are tough, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and it's very easy to get- I don't want to see ranty because I think the things sometimes that we rant and rave about are important. L: Yeah R: so I don't want to say- sound like I'm denigrating that, but I always worry because I also know there's a bunch of people who tell me they put- that they put us in their ears because they know that we're not going to talk about anything they can't handle, so I always try to balance "Do I go off or not" L: This is why we content warn. R: This is why this episode, yeah. We'll probably have a few "caution; contains spice" L: yes R: I think that's good, that's good. All right. Final question.Hit me. Whatdya got? L: Final question. "Favorite useless skill?" R: "Favorite useless skill?" L: Yes R: Oh, that's tough because define "useless" because okay, when I perform if- if I go out with a prop or a skill or a thing and it consumes time in an enjoyable way, by definition it's not useless because it got us through a "What are we gonna do?". So I think a lot of times as a clown the biggest worry is you walk out like "Okay, now what?" If- if it's a stage show, you have an act. L: yes R: but if you're roving or doing environmental performance you're expected to just constantly be having discoveries and human brains do not work that way. They don't work that way at all we're trying to make that happen. So if I have a little something, I'll tell you um- the stuff that's really portable and really quick and always at the ready L: *Affirmative Noise* R: that seem really pointless are the ones I love and I- I- I can describe one that I do all the time L: Okay R: and I've done this to little kids and this is how to keep a mob of children entertained as a self defense move. L: I was about to say, you said "to" and I have concerns. Toward? R: To. To, towards, L: Okay R: at and with. Trust me I know what I'm doing. L: Okay R: Okay, so a bunch of kids come up you. "Hello Mr. The Clown", L: *exhale* R: We know where these stories go, sometimes they go really wrong. So, you know, we're on guard. They go "Do a magic trick" and here's the truth, there are so many clowns who do magic. I am not among them. It is- sleight of hand's never been my jam. I did a little bit of it as a kid and I never kept it up and it's just- It's just not my thing and yet apparently it's like- it's it's like being told to twist a balloon animal "Do that because you do that." and I'm like "No I don't do that" L: "We see the nose. Clearly that's a thing you do" R: "So do a magic trick Mr. The Clown" Well now you're on the spot. You've been backed against a wall, there's a mob of children, they're going to eat you. In the back your head your- the- the lizard that lives in the back of your brain says "We're all gonna die. They're going to eat us. Do something" So, I'm studying with the- on a- on a workshop and I'm a student in it and I had this really wonderful time. I ended up dancing with Guido and Guido's this Italian guy who flew in for the workshop and Guido's delightful, we have so much fun. We're dancing together, we're doing jokes. It's just, we've got really good stage chemistry L: Yeah R: and at one point were just sitting and talking. We're doing- we're all sitting around the- and we're playing games together. We're just like- like children showing ea- but it's showing each other games and he goes "Okay, do like this" and he says "Do a thumbs up. One hand, do a thumbs up." and the other hand he says "Point." and that's where I say at the kids, you point at the kids and the kids look at me and I say "Everybody do this" and they go "okay" I say "Now switch them. Simultaneously your thumb will become your index finger, and your index finger will become your thumb. So your left hand has a thumb, you're right hand has an index finger, you swap 'em around and now your right hand has a thumb L: Thumb up R: thumb up and you're pointing with left and then you go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and if you're doing this all the time it becomes a rhythm and if you're not your brain breaks and I said- at the time when I met Guido and he showed me this I couldn't do it and he says "you have-" and he has this accent that you can't not do, he says-, and it's infectious "is you have to relax" "you have to relax and have the fun with the game" and he's doing that and he's doing the fingers back and forth really fast and I do this in front of kids. I don't do the voice, obviously, but ah- I took this gift home and now when I get cornered by kids and they say "Do a magic trick", I did this and it became my favorite because I always have a thumb and index finger on each hand, and conveniently I've got two of them, so it's great. I teach this to them and the first thing that happens is they can't do it. So there's the "Oh wow, you can do a cool thing" and then they- one of them will get it and the other ones will pick it up and suddenly you have this little mob of kids that know the secret gesture. Now they're doing it to other people. L: *laughs* R: What's great though is that later on you'll be at the same event and one of the kids will come by and be like "Hey Mister The Clown" and give you the thumb-finger and just do like this. I'm doing this and you can't see. So yeah, I think if I had to pick a favorite useless skill it'd be something like that because it's so quick and ready and available and pointless. Well it isn't pointless because- L: There's pointing involved R: You're point- there's a lot of pointing. More than you're supposed to- as a clown you're not supposed to point at things and it- because it's really kind of rude and pushy, but at the- the same time there's a lot of pointing and I think that's also funny. So I will say that at the moment, if you ask me apparently, pointer finger pointed at me "Hey you, Mister The Clown, what's your favorite useless skill?" I'm going to say that game of thumb-finger. Which I hope I managed to teach you are who are listening by voice, so you can- you can enjoy the ah- the possibility. If you manage to do it and you can do it really well, let me know, I ended up inventing a level two version of the game that's harder, but I don't want to give it away right now. I want you to try, like I said thumb on one hand, index finger on the other, and try switching them back and forth. See if you can get that, and when you get that and you feel like you're way too confident, send me a message, I'll tell you the level two game and you'll be able to level up, as the kids might say. Yeah. L: Yeah. R: Yeah, So L: I love that game. R: It's a good game L: It's a lot of fun R: It is good. What about you? "What is your favorite useless skill" L: Ah- I run into the same problem that- that you mentioned when it comes to describing a "useless" skill. There- there's an argument that no skill is completely useless, particularly when you are a clown because any- any si- any silly human trick, you can put that on a stage. R: and yet our readers and listeners are demanding an answer. L: I- I understand that R: You are on the spot L: So given, that I have- that this is the question on the table R: Floor L: Floor in this particular case R: That you been put on the spot by our leader- and leaders and risteners L: *laughs* R: It's the- the thumb- finger thing. It'll get you. It'll scramble you up. L: scramble everything R: That's part of the fun. Our readers and listeners demand to know what's your favorite L: They've- they've- they've politely requested. R: No, it doesn't. It's- there's nothing polite about this. Look at this it says "Favorite useless skill" question mark that's it. It's like a demand. L: No, "Favorite useless skill" R: Name? Liam. Height? Very short. Favourite useless skill? L: I have always said two-toned whistling. R: You've always said what? L: Two-toned whistling. R: What is two-toned whistling? L: Um, so it is among my silly human tricks that I taught myself as a child. I don't remember who introduced me to it, but essentially it is possible to produce a sound that is- is primarily a whistle but then also has an additional- an- an additional tone. So you'll have more than one tone going on and it's- the- the best way I've ever heard it described, how to attempt to achieve this, is by humming and whistling at the same time. R: Okay. Now I realize this may end up being a high pitched sound in some people's ears, so we're going to prepare everybody for that but obviously you have to do- it's an actual useless skill that is a favorite of yours that is audio based, so you have to demonstrate. There's no- there's no getting out it. You're on the spot now. L: *two-toned whistles* R: I need you to do it again. L: *two-toned whistles* I used to really annoys some friends. R: Sounds like you have a vacuum cleaner L: 'cause it sounds- it sounds a lot like a like a motor of some kind and when I was doing it in high school, I had some friends who worked at a local ice cream shop and they had a- they had a blender for a particular um, milkshakes. They had a milkshake blender and I managed to produce a sound that sounded almost exactly like the milkshake blender and I now feel bad about my choices of actions at that point in time. I was intentionally cruel to my friends, which I try not to do now, R: You've grown. You've unlearned. L: I have unlearned this, but because the sound that sounded so very much like the milkshake making machine at their job made them very, very upset hear in other contexts R: So what you're saying is you traumatized them. L: I- I- I did do some in- inducing of- of trauma R: and if it happened today they would cancel you. L: They might. R: Yeah L: and I fully except that I caused what may have actually been harm and I would not do that intentionally now. R: You've grown as a person. There's more proof. L: I do still really enjoy being able to produce that sound though, because it's so silly and it doesn't really sound like a mouth sound. R: No, Its like a- I just want to move my hand back and forth- I'm going to do it now. One more attempt. L: *two-toned whistles* R: (over the whistling) Yeah, I move my hand, let me vacuum over here, oh there's a little dust there. L: *laughs* R: Yeah, it's exactly like that. So thats- That's a perfectly useless skill that we've developed into a little piece of material that's how it's- L: Very quickly, like that- that's all it takes. R: Yeah, yeah. Well, congratulations. Silly mouth sounds abound. I have- I have a few but I don't know if I have that one. I'll have to go practice. Should I try now? L: If you'd like R: I don't know. Okay I'll try. Again, I apologize in advance, feel free to pull your ears away from the headphones. We don't normally do your weird high pitched noises, So I'm a little worried about that. *nearly two-toned whistles* No, I've- L: That's almost there. R: *two-toned whistles* L: (over whistling) There you go. There it is. R: Oh, that's good. Yeah, yeah. L: Yeah, it's- it's very R: I can annoy the heck out of some people with that. L: It's very strange and- and somewhat annoying R: Oh yeah but L: but quite fun. R: but I can totally see how like a blender- put the lid on. *two-toned whistles* here's a milkshake. Well there you have it. I've- I've learned a useless skill today. L: Well done. I had already learned the one that- the- R: Well, I teach it. L: You taught it. R: I teach it L: yeah R: I teach it to anyone who will hold still, and if I'm backed into a corner by a mob of a- needy- needy, magic seeking, children. I teach them this magic trick and if they're very smart they figure out the magic trick is the fact that we all did something together as we have done here on this episode of L: Two Clowns in a Closet R: That was so smooth L: It was very smooth. Very solid. R: Normally- normally we get all button missing and button seeking, but that time yeah. L: Right there. R: feel good about it, well, we will see and next time ah- *tongue clicking noise* yeah. Oh, another fun mouth sound. L: Yes, oh so much. R: The ping pong noise. *back and forth ping-pong ball like noises* I dropped my ping pong ball. Have you got any other good mouth sounds, we could just do a few here. L: *heavy sigh* R: Oh that's a good one. *rasberries* L: *rasberries* R: *high pitched buzz* L: Oh that one's good. R: Thank you. That's a little bug I keep in my pocket. I go *high pitched buzz* *slapping sound* *pause* R: I'm sure it's fine. L: *big exhale* R: Ok, I'll open my hands now. *high pitched buzz* now, see. I told you it's fine. Alright. Alright everyone, that's enough high pitched noise for one day. They get on everyone's nerves. Thank you for spending some time with us, it's always good to have a chat, and we'll see you next time. *door opens* *theme music plays*