----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 22 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2024-12-12 ----------------------------------- *door closes* R: And I- I'm here! L: Yes R: You're here! L: Yes R: And I feel like we have to say it- again. L: Again R: Friends *sighs* ah- everyone makes mistakes, including us. I know you think of us as infallible technicians *pause* of failure and we have ah- we've- we've kept our L: We've succeeded at that. R: Yeah, our expertise has not failed. Our last recording, we managed to kick the microphone cable out, proving that no matter how much technology changes you can still wreck a recording by unplugging the damn thing. L: Yup, so R: But now we're back. L: We are back to do it again. R: And we're going to do it- "here we go", is what they say. L: Yes R: Things people aughta know. Item the zeroth was that. Item the oneth, I'm not good at numbers. L: Okay R: Item the bleem L: Yes? R: Ye- I was getting to it. L: I- I'm curious. R: I'm excited L: Item the bleem is R: it's an important L: it's a big deal R: Yeah, it's an important number. It comes right after plaid. Should we back? We should back up to plaid. L: Yes R: So plaid, plaid of course is, welcome friends this is what is most likely going to be our final recording of this year L: Yes R: Which um- we're going into a toughie and there's no L: *sighing* Yeah R: And- and- and I think it's worth, as long as we've paused for a moment, to- to point out that L: Have we paused for a moment? R: Well, yeah. We have, are you reading cards right now? Are we doing witty banter? No, we're talking. We're talking to our friends. We're- L: Is that pausing though? R: We are now, we've stopped right in the middle of plaid! L: Okay fine, back to plaid. R: Alright, back to plaid. As you know, it's the end of twenty twenty four, this will probably land in your a- in your player around the beginning of hopefully the beginning of twenty twenty five and if you are, especially like us, in the United States. We're heading into a heck of a few years. We are completely aware of that fact. There is no part of us that doesn't know that and after I finish with item plaid, we're going to do something that I consider is the best piece of advice I can offer any one. Which is to carve out a small amount of time where that's not what you're thinking about. I'm not saying don't be informed. I'm not saying don't be involved. I'm not saying don't take care of yourself. I'm saying you, my dear friends, are completely allowed to take a break for the purpose of stepping back from it. One of the things we have done with this podcast through our entire run, of now our third year, L: Yes R: Is to create that space where it's gonna be a little bubble away from reality. You're going to get to take a break from all that stuff that's weighing you down. L: We touch on it occasionally, but for the most part, taking a break. R: Correct. And so I wanted to say, we're going to continue creating that bubble for you within this conversation, understand that that means that there may not be some topics we're talking about here. I imagine that somewhere on the internet someone is talking about them loudly, right now, and if that's what you need, I respect that. You will not find it here. Please don't think that means we're not aware. Please don't think that means we don't care. In fact it's quite the opposite, we are, like you, up to our eyeballs in it and need this break too and so, closing out item plaid, if you don't have anything to add to item plaid, L: No, I think you covered it, item plaid. R: I- We're closing out item plaid, we will continue providing you mirth, merriment, and distraction from your otherwise existential crisis in progress L: So, I know for me, I like to take a deep inhale *both inhale loudly* L: and release it *both release long raspberries* R: That's very soothing. Thank you. Thank you L: You're welcome. R: I enjoyed that. I enjoyed that. So, moving on to plaid, no from plaid to bleem. L: On to bleem. R: I lost track. I know it goes zero, oneth, plaid, bleem. It's very obvious L: Yes R: So, item bleem. I mentioned that this is our final recording of the year L: Yes R: and that's- that's exciting because a lot has happened this year and a lot of good stuff, you know, we're not doing much of a building recap this time because we wanted to take the time to talk about L: Some other things, R: some other things, but uh- the- the- definitely there's- the- the progress continues, the mission continues, and in- and because of that, we used to do this recording in a little chunk and then we would go back to our lives and now we've sort of interspersed it in between all the other projects, which means there are a few less of them a year. L: Yeah we've definitely found ourselves balancing it in amongst the rest of the work here at this old clown house and it does make me start to wonder whether the concept of "seasons" still really applies. R: I think it's a useful illusion to call each year a season, but it kinda- yeah, it kind of makes no sense. L: Because we- we did. We really would take a short span of time, we would R: cram all the recordings in. L: record- we would be recording once a week R: and then transcribing like mad. L: Transcribe like mad, trying to get, you know, them out- I don't know if- was- was it every other week? It was- it was close together. The point was it fairly close together and then we would do like nine of those and R: We called that a year L: We'd call it a year and then we'd take several months off and then we'd come back. R: Honestly I got to the point- and I- and I will admit this, I got to the point where I missed talking to you guys. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I- I miss these conversations. By midway through the year I'm- I'm itching for it. Whereas this year, we've had a nice regular ongoing conversation. Yes, there have been- there've been less of them, but I feel like it's been good because we're checking in L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I've said that before, but also I think this is the pattern- now that we've done it for a year, I think this pattern is sustainable and I think we're going to continue at this, you know, "as we can" sort of basis, because we got enough out that I feel like "Yeah, that was worth doing" L: Yeah, definitely. I think "as we can" is probably how we're gonna continue R: And- and for that reason if you have ideas for questions, things like that, they become more timely because instead of having to wait for the next season of production, if someone sends us a question that makes sense to put into L: The next episode, R: the next episode L: we'll put it into the next episode. R: Yeah, we'll rearrange things. We don't plan these too far out. L: No, we really don't. R: I feel like that's kind of obvious. L: I keep a list. R: Do you? L: but we do not go in order. R: I think the thing I'm proudest of is I've gotten to where we choose the questions and then we put them down for little while and even even though we just recorded and had a really wonderful talk that no one will ever hear, the best episode we ever recorded, I sit down now to answer the same questions again, I'm admitting that, I don't remember what they were. Not at all. I can not fathom- L: I remember a couple of them. R: Do you? L: I do remember a couple of them. R: Nothing. It's- it's like- it's like a breeze went through my head and cleared it. L: So we're going to have an entirely different conversation. R: My opinions will likely change, as they are want to do. L: Yeah. R: I've changed my mind a couple of times. L: This happens R: Like since sitting down. L: Yeah this happens. R: Well let's see, zero, oneth, plaid, bleem, I think we've covered the housekeeping stuff. L: I think that's probably the housekeeping, yeah. We- we will be keeping on keeping on. R: Trundling through. L: Um R: Doing the thing. L: We'll see whether this episode is part of- is the last one of the quote unquote "season" or the beginning of the next quote unquote "season". R: It- It is episode twenty two. I looked that much up before I sat down, so at least I could say "happy twenty second episode". This has no bearing on anything, we're just really glad to get to sit down and talk to our friends. L: Yes R: Yes, and um- that's the housekeeping. I mean, quick checklist, the microphones on. We're full of potatoes. L: Yeah, well, sweet potatoes R: Even better. It's cold, we got our first snow of the year. It was so loud you can hear it. L: That was our second snow. R: Was it? L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I slept through the first one. L: We had had a first one. R: I slept through the first one, it doesn't count. That was my first snow L: Okay R: of the year and it was beautiful and I was sitting quietly and I heard it landing and I didn't know what that sound was because nothing I knew of went crunch in that way, and it was snowfall and it was gorgeous and so I've got- I actually have achieved some small amount of wintry spirit. Wooo L: Welcome to winter. R: Thank you. I'm cold. L: As am I. R: Yes. That's why I'm full of potatoes. The only way to stay warm. That radiators or radiators L: I've heard both. R: Which is it? L: Well the radiator tech came and- and looked at them last time we had to have him come out. R: But did the radiator tech come and look at our radiators? Yes. L: No, he called them radiators. R: Really? L: Yes. R: Folks, I would love to know, we have large metal things full of hot water in the corner of the room, is that thing I'm looking at a radiator or a radiator or something else entirely. I would love to know what people think. If anyone wants to tell us, I would love to know. L: I agree. I would love your opinion. R: Yeah, go on, tell us. We're waiting. *long silent pause* R: I just realized something. L: Yeah? R: We pre-record this. L: oh yeah. R: Yeah. That's on us. That's on us. L: *Affirmative Noise* Yup. R: Yea, We'll just- we'll just leave that in and keep moving L: So, R: Yes? L: We've, filled ourselves with sweet potatoes R: And other wonderful foods. Don't limit me to a single potato. L: And then. R: There's a lot of clown to feed here. You can't L: Yes, here too. R: There's a small clown to feed there. It just eats tremendous- you eat more than I do. L: I eat a lot. R: You eat more than I do, but the point is this, I'm waving- I'm gesturing at myself, this- in a big hand wavy sort of way, needs- needs calories. It needs carbs. L: I understand that. R: Okay, so don't go mocking the carbs. Carbs are beautiful. L: I was not mocking the carbs. R: They make my brain work. L: I was trying to get to the point where we talk about how we got here. R: Here? You mean from downstairs on the couch? L: Yes. R: I'd like to point out that we have a couch in the lounge now. L: We do have a couch in the lounge. R: I got up off the couch. I grabbed my recording equipment from the cabinet of cacophony. I can't believe I said it correctly L: Well done R: But I think I did. L: I think you did. R: I did. I walk through a door into the lee- lobby? L: Lobby R: Yeah, the lobby, up two flights of stairs, across a landing, across another half flight of stairs down a very creaky, because it's cold, hallway and through this door where we entered this room where at long last it occurred to us that we should probably point out that our friends are listening to L: *after a short pause* "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: Did I go so long you forgot to hit it? L: ehhhhhh R: Did I go too far? L: Normally you say "This episode of". R: Well we just did away with seasons, it just felt casual and convers- L: But we're good, we're good. R: But we can go again if you want. L: No we did it. R: No, I don't want to get into a fight with you. L: I'm not in a fight. R: I feel like now you- you disrespected the vibe of casualness and now I have to "this episode" should we take a break and hear from our sponsors? Here's a- here's a word from our sponsors. *short silence* R: We don't have any. L: No, we don't have any sponsors. R: We just do this because we love you and ah- and- and you love us and that's why you send us messages on the internet and we feel loved and that is awesome. L: And then we have questions that we can answer. R: We're sponsored by weird questions from our friends on the internet. L: Yes that's exactly what sponsors us. R: That's what we should have said. "Brought to you by weirdos like you L: Thank you R: who have asked us a weird question" otherwise we would just have to sit here and come up with stuff and it would be hard because all I have is potatoes and bad ideas and the ability to kick out a microphone cable. That's all I've got. L: I think I'm the one who kicked out the mic- kicked out the microphone cable. R: I refuse to let you take blame for something so critical to our infrastructure because I'll- it'll damage my trust. I'd rather it be my fault and it be okay. L: I think- I think we can share R: It's our fault? L: Share the fault on this one. R: Oh, take my hand. Take my hand. We screwed up. L: We screwed up R: That felt so good. L: Yeah R: It did. It did. We screwed up together and we got to do it again. I love L: So now we're here. R: I kind of love that. L: So do I R: because there's an alternate timeline where, you know we did that but this is like we- we- it was so good we got to do it twice. L: Yeah R: Yeah L: cool R: What did we do last- I don't even remember. It was a day ago!Oh, two days ago L: Two days ago R: Two days ago and I don't remember *pause* things have happened. L: I'm slightly concerned. R: No, I don't mean like- I mean I don't- I remember doing it. It's not like I- It's not like like I'm completely lost. Yes I have some brain fog. I've admitted to that. I'm talking about the fact that like the nuances of conversation have spilled out of my head because a shine- somebody jingled their keys near me in the last two days L: Keys? R: Metaphorically speaking. I don't want to lose you. *both laugh* L: Okay. R: All right L: All right. R: Okay L: Okay R: All right L: All right then. R: All right then what? L: The first question. R: We're jumpin' in, just like that. L: Just like that. R: I feel like we just got here. I mean, no if you want to go that's fine. I think- I've just felt like the banter was fast, choppy. L: I don't think it was R: Choppy L: It might have been a little bit choppy but I don't think it was fast. R: You think it was slow? L: No. R: That's weird. I did a weird voice but I didn't show down much. L: You did not really slow down at all. You just dropped- you dropped the pitch. R: It was weird. It's a bad take. It's a good take, because we're keeping it, but it was a bad take 'cause uh- it wasn't good. Mistakes. That's- that's- Today's- today's, here I'll help you out, episode of L: Mistakes! R: Oh wow L: Oh! Two clowns- R: *laughs* R: So earlier today, I'm gonna- I'm gonna throw you under a- under a metaphoric bus here. L: *laughs* R: I said to you, I said "Do you want to do a quick sound check? Warm up a little bit?" you're like "Naw, I got this" L: "I'm good!" R: "I'm good! Let's go" and I'm like "Are you sure? Because I know it's been a couple of days and we weren't so good a couple days ago" and you said L: What are you talking about? That was the best episode we've ever recorded. R: and I said, I said "Of course, you're right." and then here I am, and you're complaining about episodes, so I finally give you the ball. I finally hand it to you, friend. "Welcome to this episode of mistakes" L: *laughs* R: Which is of course sponsored by L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: Because they won't let us out until we finish recording or kick the cable out again. That could be our new slogan. L: That could be. R: That could be. It won't be, but I like the idea. L: Yeah we can noodle on it. R: I liked our old slogan. We had a slogan. L: We had a slogan? R: We got it in the mail. L: *laughs* R: We got a card, one of you sent us a card. I have yet- and I'm going to be honest, I've yet to have figured out who it was, but one of you lovely people after I commented on it sent us an anonymous card in the mail which said "Stop talking" L: it did R: and then below it, and I love this, and below it it says "Now start again because we enjoy that" and I still L: It was beautiful R: I still have it. It's not- it's not currently- I was- it was out on display before we moved, it's currently still packed up, but it will be on display probably L: Of course R: in the recording closet when we have one L: Yes R: but in the meantime, yeah I don't know where I was going with that. L: Slogans R: Slogans, that's right. Maybe that's what we should do next year. We should ask everyone for their opinion of what our slogan should be. L: And we'll just like, highlight that every episode? R: Well yeah, because the first- the first time we did a- a contest- not a contest, but a creative challenge L: Yes R: We said let's- let's do remixes of our theme song and wow did everybody give us such good stuff L: Those were amazing R: I- I still listen to 'em sometimes. I have those, and then it was, the one that we're doing right now which was the- the visual art, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Which was the episode art, and we are- we still are putting one on this episode and I think we still have a few more after that, but then maybe the next one is suggest a slogan and we'll use it as the slogan of the episode. It's official I've decided because I'm half the te- well- all in favor raise your hands. That's everyone's hands. That's my hand, that's Liam's hand, and a few of you raised your hands too! L: I love it. R: Okay, it's unanimous. It's official. This- this episode's slogan is "Send us your slogan" L: Nice R: and we'll see where that goes. Yeah. L: I like it. R: I do too. I hope someone sends us a slogan before we record again, otherwise L: Otherwise we'll be slogan-less. R: Which is not much of a slogan. L: No. R: "We're slogan-less" Okay it's bet- L: save it, save it. R: Save it. Save it, it was better than I thought. Don't we have a format we follow when we get stuck? L: Yes we do. R: What is that format friend? L: I have this deck of cards R: And where did those cards come from? L: My office. But the questions on them come from our listeners R: Listeners? L: Yes R: Yes, those- you- you lovely people. You sent us some questions. I remember. I was trying to help. L: Would you like to hear the first question? R: Are you asking them or me? L: I'm asking you because we pre-record these and even though I'm hoping they would also like to listen to the first question I won't be able to get a in person response. R: I just- I will answer the que- and your- I will answer your question, that you just asked me, before the questions that come after that, after I make one comment. One of you just nodded or said yes out loud to that question and I love you because you're playing along and thank you for that. It's important to me. I try really hard to pretend what you're doing and I try to imagine you doing your thing and at one point you're just somewhere by yourself your like "Get on- Yes I want to hear it!" and that's the person I love right now. With that in mind, I'm going to go with their answer. Yes I would love to hear the question. Get on with it. L: Okay R: Right now. First question. L: First question. "What's your take on the unintended and unwanted but growing competition in the world of professional clowning?" R: Competition in clown? L: Yes. That's the question. R: Competition.. Okay I- the brain is just- maybe it's the fog but it just locked up because in my- my immediate answer is I don't think it exists. There's so few people doing this work that I think most of the time that we end up having conversations about clown, most of those conversations are "Try these skills, you might like it. You might do this. You might keep this energy that the world desperately needs going." I feel like so many more my conversations are about that than competition. When I first got started maybe there was a little bit because I had a lot of ego going in. I was like "I want to be great, at being bad at stuff!" Which took me a while to understand how bizarre and useless that was? L: Yup R: But ultimately, I think- I think, if you know more than me, and you're kind, you're my teacher and if you know less than me and I'm kind, you're my student, if you're listening and if we know the same amount well, we're going to try to play together because that fun. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I think anything else probably isn't really in the realms of play, and more importantly isn't in the realm of clown. L: Well, I think you're- I think you're right. R: I don't wanna- I don't wanna rush an answer here but my instinctual answer is how- how is competition a thing when what we're talking about is a- I don't know, a mindset or spiritual state or an energetic state or intellectual state of playfulness. How- how is there competition in that? I mean, beyond- within a game, sure. I mean if we're playing a clown game and the clown game is "tag" one of us gets the joy of being "it" but- but after that there's- there's no competition. L: Yeah I think you're right. R: I think outside of that maybe- maybe- maybe there's- there's some sense of competition. I'm trying to- I'm trying to suss an answer, I mean, maybe there's a comp- some competition between you know, which entertainer gets the gig, I guess? I but even that doesn't- L: That does exist to a certain degree, but- R: Right but that's- that's about the professional work. That's not like the in- in the world of the clown. That's in the world of getting a gig. That's a different world in my mind, because frankly we book our clowns and then our clowns just show up. L: Yeah R: In fact we very intentionally put a separation between, you know, them and that sort of stuff because I don't think they're at all compatible. So, with that in mind, I don't think competition and clown are particularly compatible. I've even heard of some contests where there are like, you know, "How good is your a clown makeup" or your clown clothes or your clown sketch work or whatever. L: How is that even judged? R: I don't know. I know that- the, what was it? The American Clown Association has some- has some stuff like that and I don't even know how that works because to me it seems so- it seems so counter to the goal- if the goal is to be the best me I can be, I should be full of idiosyncrasies and failures and mistakes and silliness. I shouldn't be wearing the right color red. It- unless that's important to me. L: Yeah, but the only one who's going to know that R: is me L: is- is- is you. R: In which case, unless- and maybe it's because I haven't been invited, maybe it's I come in the room and everybody just goes "Oh, you're exactly you. Here's your gold star!" and I go "Wow, that's awesome" but again, that's not competition so L: Yeah R: So I- I don't know the answer and I- I stand here. I don't- I don't- I do a lot of death scenes for comedy, that's something I believe in strongly because you should play with things you're afraid of. Wow, that was more honest than I intended but I do think that this will be a hill I die on, and the metaphoric hill I die on is that I don't think there's any competition when we're really talking about clown. The minute we get to something no- outside of a game, talking about competition, we're- we're talking about something else. L: What about status battles? R: That's a game L: Okay, yeah. R: So- so the idea- to- to unpack this for friends because we went- we went- we went in the woods a little. There's an idea of theatrical status. Ah- you can read a Johnstone's book "Impro" and get like, the best description of this, but essentially my favorite description of this is- is like- it's little interplays between people. Whose in char- trying to figure out where you- where you belong. Where you- L: What the pecking order is. R: Exactly. Thank you L: yeah R: Thank you and you can do it, you don't just have to win by being the biggest *redacted* in the room. In fact, my favorite thing about status theatrically is when you have two people who are relatively of equal status the battle becomes more dynamic because they're- they're both a five status, out of one through ten say, and ones trying to be more five-y than the other and that's hilarious because you're watching, you know, in the context of theater, two idiots argue over which one's the smarter idiot. L: Yeah, yeah-yeah-yeah. R: Which is really funny. My other favorite one is two- two old guys on a park bench, one of the goes "Oh, my back" and the other one goes "Oh your back. You're so lucky, you just got back. I got back, I got knees, you're- you're a picture of health!" and that's like my favorite thing because it's so absurd. L: Where the status is about. R: I'm a lowering my status in order to raise the other person and in doing so win by being the best at being the worst. L: People are so messy. R: People are messy. Status is rife with comedy, and it is a game that is played by clowns. L: Yes, Ok. R: And so my answer to that question is L: Is that it is a game. R: it is a game the clowns play because clowns ultimately are all together and they're a team and they love each other there may be one who is the- the leader of the team, or the leader of the moment. I've done a lot of- a lot of gigs where- and I don't want to say "boss clown" because that's more of an organizational thing L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but like one of the clowns is clearly leading the energy of the moment L: Yes R: and everyone is fin- we all agree. "Okay you're- you're following until you give that up and if you give that up you give it to one of us" and then the other one goes. L: Yes R: and I've been both- I've been on both sides of that L: Me too. R: I find- and I find both fun in different ways. I find following more fun, having a lower status is more fun because I have more freedom and having a high status is more fun because I get to be more of a complete *redacted*. L: *laughs* R: I mean, onstage. Again, onstage, that's what I like about those games. We have gone into the woods of tech theater and- and theater theory and I love it but I should probably pull back to the question and ask you. L: Okay R: My glasses, the cards provided by my lovely friends, hello. Here we go. "What's your take on the unintended and unwanted but growing competition in the world of professional clowning?" L: So, ah- this question has a particular smell to me. R: How does it smell to you? L: It smells like it's intended to imply politics *silent moment* R: I love how we just went silent. L: and um- R: You could get a room noise check on that, no kidding. *sound of disgust* L: And I have talked about my feelings on using the term "Clown" or using the term "Clown Shoes" R: We did like a whole- I felt like it was a whole episode on that, early on. L: I don't know that we did a whole episode, but I definitely- I remember going on about it, so R: We'll link it in show notes, to the- to the episode because I- I remember you made some good points. L: Yeah so I think- I think I have covered my feelings on using those terms to mean "That thing I'm upset about" or "That person who has upset me" R: Using clown as a pejorative? L: Yes. R: I didn't even think about it. I just assumed everyone loved us. L: And I have- I have one additional thought about this question in particular R: *Affirmative Noise* L: because of the statement of "unintended" is what makes me think that that's what they're trying to say, because you can't not intend to perform clown. R: Oh the performer has to know. L: If you're doing clown. R: Yeah L: If somebody is behaving in a way that's being read as clown and they didn't intend- I'll say to be comedic, at the very least, because I think that your intent can be a little bit fuzzy R: Sure L: You don't have to be trained in clown or know that that's the word you're looking for but if you're not intending to be funny and you're being read as though you're a clown? That's a moment of tragedy R: or cruelty L: or cruelty R: Yeah L: and some small versions of that happen all the time, and a large ones do, but a lot of small ones happen without that being intended harm by anybody but I think that if you're not intending it, it's not clown. So, I- I agree with- with your assessment about this question, which is that the- the thing they're implying is happening, isn't. R: The- the thing you said about self awareness reminded me of something. If I can- If I can- I found a wild anecdote I'd like to bring- I'd like to bring to the table. L: I would love to hear about your wild anecdote. R: Bring my wild- Hello, hello little anecdote. How are you? Sit next to the microphone and I'll- I'll share your story, since you don't speak podcast. Um, I had a student, and the student currently is on my mind because they are now teaching, which makes me not a clown father figure but a clown grandfather figure. L: Baby baby clowns! R: Baby baby clowns will soon be a result of my terrible choices, which I think is wonderful, but when I first met this particular performer who has grown in leaps and bounds and I would never say their name is Ely, but I just did. Ely Sellers, who is- who is a dear friend, and when he first showed up he was, and these are his own words, he was a wreck, and L: I saw some of Ely's early stuff R: You did, you did, you did. L: It was rough. R: And it was amazing, once- somewhere in the middle of that journey, he concerned me because I wond- he was so on and off, we- I used to joke he was a stopped clock. I used to say "You're like a stopped clock. I don't know if you're- if you're on or off. I don't know. You know, you, maybe twice a day you're right, the rest of the time what- what is this?" and I would throw him off the stage, and then he would come back and be amazing and would blow all of our minds or he would come in amazing and then the next beat he'd be gone again and I honestly was worried that- um- that he was- that he he wasn't really there? In the way were implying. I don't mean to say something about- I'm not saying something about Ely- of my friend's mental health, Ely's mental health. I'm saying like maybe he wasn't self aware of what was happening and there's a learning curve to this but I'm talking about something bigger than that, and I ended up behind his back, and I feel okay saying this now because I have told him the story L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and if I haven't and I've forgotten to tell him this story? He's gonna hear this, his mouth's gonna hang open. He's gonna be very angry and he's going to call me and it's gonna be fine. So I had a mentor, so the great grandfather L: *laughs* R: clown. The grandfather of the clowns, um- and I were- happened to be at dinner one night and, long ago, long long ago, and sat down and he was telling a story about a student with kind of a similar- I don't know- and I said "I have a question. How do you know if someone-" and in the case of- in the case of the student he was talking about who was, you know, I don't even know who it was but they were literally a not well person who had wandered into a clown class thinking that would be fun and had to be returned to the home they were from. It was a whole thing and it took them a while to notice 'cause clown can be like that. L: Yeah R: and clown is very accepting and then you go "Oooh, this person need support this room can't provide. We need to pull them out" and the reason why was when they were funny or when they weren't funny there was no difference. And I said "Well how do you know something like that. What made you figured it out?" and the- the grandfather of clown said "At a certain point, can they take a note? Can they self reflect?" Which speaks to your self awareness. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and so I had this note about, you know because I honestly asked the question, "Am I- am I", you know, with the case of Ely, going back to Ely. "Am I helping Ely or am I just torturing someone who isn't there" you know, in this- in this self- self aware way. I didn't know. "He said if he can take a note, it's just him struggling his way through it". So I took that. I took a deep breath and went back to lab and I proceeded to pound on Ely L: *laughs* R: I mean just really hit him with everything I could. Just give him notes, and give him notes and there was a corner turned, and I want to be clear on this point, there was a corner turned and while he's still kind of a stopped clock, 'cause all clowns are, myself included, when that clock is at the right time? It is brilliant and it's- it's a joy to watch. So for that L: So he clearly can take a note and make improvements. R: And then exactly! L: Yeah R: and the- the- the- the take away is he can- he can- he can take the notes and he can learn from the notes and he came to be at one point and he- he said as much without my prompting. So that was- that was the end of the story. And I said "You know, I had to ask someone for advice on this and that was, I was looking for that." I told him that. We were, it was actually, you will know when this is. They won't. I used to teach at the bath house cultural center. L: Yes R: And the last night of the workshops we were teaching there L: Ah yeah. R: He came to me and I was sitting in a chair and I was the only one in the room that knew that program a shutting down and we were moving it, I mean we already had a plan to move it, it was fine. Um- but he- he just knelt down next to my chair, I was sitting down for a minute, just kind of processing all of that, and I hadn't made the announcement yet, and he said "I want you to know, you know, you've taught me a lot, those notes- those hard notes, they- they've- they've really helped me." and I was, it was one of the most validating moments for me as a teacher and it was a sign that "Oh, self awareness is a big part of this work. You have to dig in yourself." and when you think about the fact that this work is also built on um- we have to mine our own emotions for material. We have to mine our own history. You can't just take a joke you saw somewhere and do it. It will never be yours. You have to somehow bring something of yourself. You know, whether it's me doing broken hearted silliness or you know, you looking at physicality and L: yeah R: movement. You have to bring these things and musicality, and so many other things, you have to bring these things into the work and I think ah- that requires a lot of self knowledge, self awareness, and being present in it that is- is a demand of it. So yeah, I think you're absolutely right. That it is uh- it's a part of it and if it isn't there it isn't clown. L: Yeah R: I'm going to set the anecdote free. On you go. Goodbye friend. L: Goodbye anecdote. R: Such a lovely having them- so nice to have them stop by L: Yes R: Alright, I should read you a question. L: Yes R: Since you tolerated me wandering off into the anecdotes field for a minute to- to pick up a fresh one, L: *laughs* R: not so fresh one. Now- I now really need to- to shoot Ely a "Hello" L: Yes. R: I now- Now I have to. Okay. So I will- I will do that. It's on my to-do list. "Hello Ely", there you go. "An intentionally open ended question" because the last one was very narrow, as you noticed. L: Yes it was. R: That's what it says on the card "An intentionally open ended question, what is the role slash responsibility of the clown in a fractured society" sorry, wait. "In fractured society" L: Ooo R: Yeah L: That is a good question R: *Affirmative Noise* L: because there is no question in my mind that- that we live in one. Um, between all the different online social spheres that we end up in and just yes, we definitely do. Um- R: I saw you walk right up to the ropes of the real world and look off the side, there's very- L: and I decided not to go there. R: I saw you step back L: We don't need that today R: I'm proud of you for that. L: The role and responsibility of clown. I have a feeling that there are a lot of different answers to this question, R: *Affirmative Noise* L: because clown is never just one thing. R: If it was, it'd be simple. L: Um and I know that for me, R: *Affirmative Noise* L: I've been looking- I have been looking for more answers to this question as we've found ourselves, and I do mean you and I specifically ah- not engaging in certain parts of online social media um- and then having moved to a brand new physical location, there's a fair amount of isolation feelings. R: This is a bit of a clown monastery L: and R: Which is a description somebody else gave us. I would probably not have said anything so nice L: and it- it has had me thinking about what- what and how to use the skills of the clown for R: What'd you come up with? L: and I think I've been thinking a lot about interacting with the people who I do interact with. Which sounds a little silly but we've only got so large of a sphere of influence R: As people? Or us particularly? L: As people R: Okay L: Um- Some people have larger spheres of influence, who interact more regularly with more people. Some people have smaller ones and I think you pointed out the- that there was a different job of the clown performer who goes and get gigs R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and the clown itself R: Oh yeah L: Um- and I think that there's a strong argument that the clown performer's job includes increasing your sphere of influence. Coming up with more gigs, running- seeing more people um R: The hustle side L: The hustle side it R: Blech L: Um- but the clown has to focus on where they are in the moment and who they're interacting with in the mome- moment and who is their audience of the moment and I think that one of the things that clown is really good at is helping people feel seen and heard and understood because one of the big things that clowns do as sort of an "Everyman" character is fail and I think that- and- and fail in a way where they can get back up again. R: That's what- L: and they keep moving forward R: that's what we love about them is they fail and then they stand up L: and I think- I think everyone can see some part of themselves in that. R: Oh sure, I hope so. L: and I think when- when you're feeling alone and when you're feeling like you are part of this fractured situation, where there's so few people who you feel understand you R: *Understanding Noise* L: Feeling seen, feeling heard, is huge and I think being able to do that for- for people, you know, however many people I can is a huge part of the role of the clown. I won't say it's the only role or responsibility but I think that it is definitely one way that we can be helping. R: It's beautiful. It's really beautiful L: Thank you R: And I think it's- I also think it's very accurate. L: Yeah, I think that's- I think that's my answer. So I will ask you R: Okay. L: "An intentionally open ended question" R: Okay L: "what is the role slash responsibility of the clown in fractured society?" R: You know this is- this sort of question comes up a lot because we talk about echo chambers and silos and disconnection and- and- the- the- the- the- the sort-of pandemic of loneliness that is a part of our modern world and disconnection. We talk about this all the time L: *Affirmative Noise* R: in- whether it's in mental health, or in performance, in entertainment, it's a constant topic a- with good reason. It needs- it needs to be discussed and we need to make connections and I used to- I used to have this little rant I would run through very quickly where I would explain that you know, the early days of circus there was silence. We were all from one town. The circus showed up. We made a bunch of noise and we moved on and it was great because we put some noise where there was previously silence and that was important because we needed the release. At a certain point the world modernized and it became very loud L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and one of the weird powers the clown had was to adapt to that and become very good at creating a little sphere of silence, like a little bubble. I- It was so much mime, but also I just mean like, we suspend a moment in time and really look at it, the way you sometimes look at a painting and you- you- more than "yeah, it's a pretty color" but you really see something L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and you have an emotional experience. The continuation of that starts approaching where you are, which I think once you have the capacity to create a bubble, well you can draw attention to things. Which is be- helping people be heard L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and the thing I talk about all the time is creating that bubble for other people, which is a- one part ah- teaching, which is, you know, so much of the mission here is going to be- is teaching but another part of it is helping people- even when it's you performing, feel like their voice is in it somehow, just a little bit. There's an empathy. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but one of the things I've noticed, through all of this, is that once you have that ability people let you go anywhere because you're entertaining. If it's silent, we'll let you to. If it's loud, we'll let you go. We get this thing where we believe that the clown can take care of it. The clown will adapt to fill whatever space is required. Which allows us to sneak in and do things and we get places we have no business being and we help where we can and what I've noticed that leads to is- it's almost like mediumship for the living. We can L: Woah. R: Yeah, you know mediums talk to the dead for the living. Clowns talk to people for other people. It's almost- it's almost like we remind people to connect by showing them we're- "Well, you've connected to me, and you've connected to me, you know, you two could do the same thing." That's really one of the best successes as a clown I can think of as if I'm playing a game of some sort with people, a theatrical game, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and suddenly they start playing it together because they no longer need me and they have their moment and I can literally go on to the next one? That means I've left my energy behind. They were separate. They were fractured. They were from different shards of reality and yet they've come together and they've connected. I have a- a somewhat politicized version of this that always comes to mind. L: Oh? R: There was a library program that we were invited to do a teaching day at, and we would do this every few years. We come and we would- we would be teaching and it was ah- it was some years ago and this- this does venture near that rope marked "real world" ah- it was- it was- as we were leading up to a- a very- twenty sixteen, it was as we were leading up to a very controversial election. One like you can imagine now. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: People were very divided. We were in a very divided city and at one point I was teaching plate spinning, which is where you have a stick and are spinning a plate and there was this- and you help people do this and you step back and you watch it. There was a moment where I watched these two guys, they had been playing with their kids but they both decided to take a moment at random and grab a stick and grab a plate and finally try it for themselves and one of them spun it up and at that moment I noticed his red hat and what his shirt said, and the guy across from him had a different hat and different shirt and they were both looking up at the plates and smiling and they both kind of looked out the side of their eye L: *Affirmative Noise* R: At that was another adult trying and they both smiled, and I walked away, mostly out of fear, but also there was this moment where- I'm not going to suggest that that's going to fix everything. Again we don't focus on th- on that- that's not where- we don't go past that rope, but what I'm going to say is that there was a moment where the clown was able to bring people together in a way that they otherwise never would have because the weird way that clowns come into things kind of sideways, that weird sort of way that we- we sidle up to people make them comfortable, "Well if you can be comfortable with me, and this other person can be comfortable with me, well I guess we can all stand next to each other" and that's what it's about. The clown sort of normalizes that behavior of "we can make small tribes for a moment" Even if they're imaginary. Even if make believe. Even if they're contrary to reality. Well reality's all made up anyway and it's certainly very contrary and it's all made up of people's opinions. Being able to do that suggests those opinions can change, even if it's only for a moment I think that's a critical work of the clown and it's something we can do now, and I think that's my answer. L: I think that is a fantastic one. R: Good then I'm gonna shut up before I wreck it. L: *laughs* Well, don't shut up for too long 'cause ah- I've got another question for you. R: Well, I've gotten cards that told me to shut up. "Stop talking, and then start again" so go on. L: Alright R: Hang on. Wait. Wait. Wait. Big sound. I'm wearing a zippered hoodie. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I'm going to unzip it and it's gonna be really loud *Zipper Noise* L: That was significant, but I doubt it was as loud as you were worried. R: I just wanted- I'm opening up you notice? I'm getting warm, I'm getting excited and opening up but also I- I wanted to make a big zipper noise because I think it'd be funny and I wanted it to be loud- you're right, I wanted it to be louder. I was like *makes loud zipper like sound* Are you going to read me the question or are you going to sit here and let me make a fool myself? L: I mean R: We could do both. L: *laughs* R: Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. We'll do it one more time. You gotta put the zipper back together. You know, that's the rules. I don't make the rules I just *the sound of zippering up and down repeatedly* L: Nice R: Yeah, it felt pretty good. Thank you. I appreciate your loving tolerance. Question. L: Question. "Russ has mentioned quote, "My option was to either be sure about everything or accept that I didn't know things," end quote. What are some things you learned because you accepted you didn't know things and what's your favorite thing you didn't know? R: Oh well, let's- let's start off by saying I know that guy. L: Yes R: He sounds real smart ah- but he's left me here to answer this question. Um- So I remember that conversation and one it was about because it was- it was about sort of that you can't be the als- you can't be the all knowing idiot was I think the- the thing I finally said L: That sounds about right. Yeah R: Something about that- yeah. Something about that- that level of- that level of- of crass but it's this thing where if you- if you're not listening to people, if you're not capable of being changed, you're not really present. You're just- you're just letting ideas bounce off of you and I think that's- that's kind of what this speaks to. You know, that- that idea. And so the question is "What did I- what did I learn? Once I-" L: "What are some things you learned because you accepted you didn't know things and what's your favorite thing you didn't know?" R: You sound- sorry I wasn't listening so. Which I- I wanted to hear it again. So, favorites are hard for me because my mind changes all the time. Things change all the time. L: Well what's your favorite today? R: What's- Yeah, exactly that was where I was heading was, you know, "What's my favorite today?" I think, once you get away from the high standing "Oh I know everything. I know, I'm wise and learned." You can not only be wrong, but you can be blown away by the reality of things. Which eventually, beyond excitement, leads to curiosity and curiosity is where all the cool stuff lives. When you can get to "I don't know" and not put dirt on top of it and hide it from other people? You go "I dunno" the next sentence is logically "but I am interested in finding out" Which may lead to comedy and it may lead to knowledge and it may lead to a brick wall. It doesn't matter. Nothing happens if we're hiding the fact that we don't know stuff. So I think the thing I'm most excited about when you- when you stop being all knowing is that there is this space that exists after the discomfort of not knowing, after the not hiding, after dispensing with the shame of it, of how exciting it is not to know. L: Yeah, but what did you learn? R: That! L: *laughs* R: That's the thing that's my favorite. The very- the very fact, because when you're so busy- let me restate so it makes sense. When you're so busy being full of crap that you're covering up all of that lack of knowledge with B.S. When you're doing that you don't- you don't get a chance to ever admit you don't know. You might not know. You might even go "Well please, tell me. I'm interested" but you never- because it's not "that's interesting" it's "I'm interested" it's so hardened up and turned in on itself it becomes selfish. There's never a moment where you just get to explore the joy of both the empty vacuous uncomfortable space of not knowing stuff and the silly joy the comes with learning a thing. Sometimes it's "Whups, gravity works" but sometimes it can be really beautiful, and it can be really interesting and really exciting and you get really, you get amped up. I think that's the thing I didn't know. I think I was so concerned with being armored up, with being correct, with being right, with being "the wise and learned expert of all things" is that there was no room for me to find out that not knowing stuff is fun because it means you get to know stuff. Not pretend to know stuff, but eventually a little tiny bit really know it, is one of the outcomes so I would get that I wanted if I would just let go of that, that desperate armoring that comes from not letting people you don't, you know, know you don't know because you know, that- the hand wavy game and I think to the- the difference between the performer and the clown, the performer walks in the room and says "Oh everyone, don't worry. I'm the expert. I, of course, will pretend I don't know what's going on but I know everything." The clown comes and goes "This is neat. I've no idea what's gonna happen" L: *laughs* R: and one of those, if you're doing it- if both are genuine L: *Affirmative Noise* R: The one where you really don't know is so much more fun, than pretending you do. It's more fun to not know, and okay, if I need another favorite, once I do know something and I can't- I can- I'm not kicking dirt over the "I don't know" and I've gotten through the "I don't know" and I've gotten all the pleasure, now I've got a thing that I learned and I'm really excited about? If I can dispense with ego, I can share that with people. I can- I can- They can get in on it. That's really exciting. There's this- there's this "Hey! Check it out!" L: You are vibrating. R: It's cool! L: You are bouncing R: It's really cool. I'm very excited about the idea- I don't ever want to be the person who's "well actually" or reply-guy-ing or- I don't want to be that person but when I do know something and I can help, my favorite words it turns out, that I get to say and no one- no one can say it to me it mean a thing and I can't choose to say it and make it work, but when I end up in a situation where someone is grateful that I gave them knowledge and I answer with all honesty "I'm happy to help", it turns out those may be that most true words I ever use. There's something about that feeling of "Yeah, I'm happy to help" What'd I do? I helped. How did you make you feel? Happy. Is that complicated? No. Does it mean you knew everything? No, but it means you knew something that helped. I knew none of that because I was so caught up on step one, don't let anyone find out you're full of crap. I was so caught up on that, that that was everything there was, and it's- so it- yes, it comes off meta that the opposite is true but at the opposite is absolutely true. What else did I learn? Don't be full of crap. I mean honestly, stop acting. Stop pretending. The fact that you don't know may be more interesting, may lead you to something more interesting. It may be more fun. It may be scary. Oh it may- not knowing is uncomfortable. Somebody goes "All right, who knows where to stand to be- do, you know, go stand in the place you stand where- where you don't get shot" You're like, I have questions. That's a very bad scenario not to know things. Comical. But, other than that, outside of real dire emergency, it- it can be quite a bit of fun if you let go of the ego and the worry that someone's going to find out. I think what it is that you learn is that you're- you're completely free of impostor syndrome when you get to that place because you've already admitted you're a fraud. You've walked into the room and go "I know nothing!" and then people go "Do you though?" and then they found out "Oh, you don't." L: *laughs* R: "Wow, Okay." and the other thing is that people are a lot nicer to you. When you don't walk in the room acting like you know everything? Well, for one thing, if you do know something they're really impre- they're like "Wow, you actually knew something. I'm shocked." I mean they're- they're- they're blown away. I'm starting to realize why Ely was so smart, because when he was smart we were like "Oh, we all thought you knew nothing. You did know something. Oh okay." I get it now. See? I'm learning. Um- but I do think the- the- the discovery that the thing that gets in your way the most is getting in your way, which sounds again like I'm hand waving over it but it is- it's a big meta idea. There's no little thing I learned that was really good- I mean, there's probably a thousand little things uh- because I was more open to receiving- because that's the other thing, when you when your fist is closed? You can't- you can't take anything in. You're- you're just a fist. You just punch. It's all you know. When you open your hand you're able to accept things, you're able to give things, and you're able to be hurt more easily because that's a vulnerable position, but it's also were all the good stuff happens L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You know and I think that is not a thing you are even aware of when you're so busy being right you don't have a chance to process any of that. So that's my answer. L: Okay R: Do you have any thoughts? I mean I know it is aimed at a quote I said but I think you have- you have things you have learned. L: I expect so. Um R: Som- Well, you want me to ask you? L: Yeah, Go- go ahead R: Well I'll ask you. L: and ask it R: I'll ask you. I'll ask you. L: Ask it R: "Some fool has mentioned 'my- my option was to either be sure about everything or accept that I didn't know things'" Which I admit, that fool sounds a lot like me. L: *laughs* R: "What are some things you learned because you accepted that you didn't know things and what's your favorite thing you didn't know" L: Yeah of course, this- this was very much a particular moment for you R: Yeah it was con- it had to be conscious because I was doing it so actively L: Um, but I was somewhat along for the ride and I remember when you had R: Oh yeah. L: When you add that moment and I know that admitting that I don't know things was something that I have always struggled with. I was that kid who didn't want to go ask the teacher something because I felt like I should already know it um- and I have had many different people in my life feel the need to tell me that if I already knew everything that was going on the class, then there would be no reason for me to be in class and that did not help *laughs* R: and simultaneously they call a "common sense" but it's not common. L: No because everything, everything is R: Is taught L: Everything is taught R: So what- what have you learned since- since you got a little more comfortable with this idea L: and I think- yeah, I think it actually hits right there on the "Everything is taught". I think when I started opening myself up to the idea that I didn't know about things that then led to the secondary idea of "I don't know what it is I don't know" R: Ooo L: and then somewhere along the line hit the point of "Neither does anyone else." R: That's a big area L: and that allows for totally different ways to connect with people because it's very, very easy to assume that everybody's coming from a similar background or everyone's coming from something of a similar background because we've- we've run into- I think- I think it's a fairly common experience for human beings to think that the way they have experienced the world is the only way there is to experience the world R: and yet we were just talking about fractured society a moment ago L: Yes and I think- I think for certain periods of time there has been more true for who one might be interacting with on a day to day basis R: *Affirmative Noise* L: because okay, we're in America where there's three television channels, which means everyone watched- a third of all- of everybody who might have had a television on last night watched the same thing. Right? Which is- it's- oversimplification and inaccurate because it's an oversimplification, but R: but also more true than you'd like to admit L: but it has a certain amount of truth to it. So there's been periods of time and certain ways in which that's been accurate and the more we find ourselves in a fractured society, interestingly we're getting to be able to see more clearly how much everyone's experience is different R: and how much of it's made up L: how much- how a lot of it is made up but- but even just, it's different. So the fact that I know that if a breaker on a breaker panel gets tripped, that it will- that switch will flip but only a little bit. It actually looks like it's still on, unless you're really paying attention, it doesn't go to a full "off" it goes to this mid point where it's indicated that it has been tripped, and you can't turn it on from there. You have to turn it off first, and then you can turn it on, and I encountered somebody who I was working with, when in a building I was in a- a breaker got tripped that had never gotten tripped before and another adult person had no idea what to do and looked at the panel and thought everything was fine and I had to go back and look at the panel and go "Oh no, this one that is ever so slightly off from being on" R: I'm so relieved that you provided enough details that it's pretty clear that this didn't happen here, and this wasn't my fault. L: No this was not you. R: I know that L: This was somebody else R: I'm just glad it's on the record now. L: Um- R: 'cause I was like "I know this!" L: and that it had to be- and that it had to be flipped off before it could be flipped back on. They had no idea. R: Why would they? L: and that was the follow up of "Why would they?" I happened to because I grew up in a house where my parent, was responsible for flipping the breaker if one tripped and one did enough times in my childhood that I learned about this. It never came up again the entire time I was living in apartments. R: No L: because that's somebody else's job. So if I had never lived in a house, where my parent was responsible for doing it, I would- in all likelihood would totally not understand how that worked and that is not a fault thing. That is not a expectations. It's a what you happened to have experienced and therefore what do you happen to know, sort of thing. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and I think it's so easy, and I hear it all the time of people thinking "Oh well if people would just use common sense" and they think that that is even a thing that exists R: because none of it's been- there are so many things that just haven't been taught for one reason or another L: and so they- there's plenty of people who would think that that situation fell under the category of "common sense". When the reality is it something that I was taught. R: Well, everything is. L: because everything is, and once you really realize that and you really realize that people are just going to have run into what they've run into and they haven't run into whatever this thing is that you happen to know about and they happen not to know about, explaining it's easy, you can make it very clear that you don't have any sort of- you don't end up issuing a blame statement because someone didn't know something and you can invite people to learn and if you don't know things and somebody else does, you can also not put them up on this weird pedestal as "person who knows all the things and I know nothing" R: You know- you both know a different subset of things. L: You both know a different subset of things. Now you get to share. R: I you the cool thing in theater when we get into lab and once we've shared, there's like a baseline set of techniques L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I think one of the really fun things that happens is once everybody has those techniques as a common language, that's when really fun things start happening. When those things are in your reflexes a little bit so everybody knows where to look and when, and how to- how to give, you know, your performing partner that- that support they need and how to, you know, share a moment- how to share the space on stage. I think at that point, that's when thing are happening because they all have just enough overlapping information, that all the other stuff that's interesting and unique about them spills into the room. I think that's L: yeah R: That's what- what we're talking about there. L: Yeah, and I think- I think getting out of assuming- Sometimes situations really and truly have prerequisites. Like that. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: When you have certain base knowledge where you- we need to run through that and make sure everyone's on the same page first. R: Sometimes it's for safety L: One, you get- the- Once you open up about the fact that you don't know everything? You get much better at being very clear about what the prerequisites are R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and making sure you know- where everybody actually is on the same page R: *Affirmative Noise* L: because sometimes language makes it sound like people are very close to the same page but they're absolutely not and you get- you get much better as you practice not knowing things. R: yeah L: You get much better at navigating through finding out whether or not we know the same things R: Huh L: and what we're going to settle on for what we actually mean when we're talking about this, when we're talking about that, and you get better in situations where there aren't explicit prerequisites, remembering that there weren't explicit prerequisites and not everyone is gonna be on the same page. R: That's good point L: That's what I think- I think that's- that's the big take away that I've been having as- as I've R: As you've L: gone down that same sort of path. R: That's interesting I think it's- I think it's neat that- that both of them come- because I- I watched your face when I started talking about like the thing- the not knowing was the thing that I had learned L: *Affirmative Noise* R: the value of that that, and you kind of like "Come on, that's not really an answer" and you've really- it's the long way around because it's your own journey, but it sort of the same answer and I think it's- it's really interesting, I'm not saying "haha I'm right" I'm saying it's- it's really interesting because we- we hadn't really talked about this but that seems to so often be the path. The- and I've heard the same kind of story, and I've heard- I've heard teachers chestnut this down to things like "It's important not to know too much" L: Yeah R: and just summarize it with that. Which is great, and I've said that but it never opens up the "because it's awesome when that happens" You never get that, and I- and I think it may be- and this is the irony, I think it may be because that's assumed. L: Yup R: And that- and I'm going to leave that there. I have another question for you. L: Okay R: This one is a- is- is a- it's a deep episode. So it's another deep question. L: All right R: All right L: Let's go for another deep, deep question. R: Are you ready? L: I am prepared, yes. R: You are prepared. Alright, friends are you ready? I think you are. "Would you rather be a fruit fly for the word 'the'?" L: The word "the" R: Okay. Are you moving on or would you like to unpack that? L: Um, I like to be helpful and the word "the" is just R: How- How is it helpful? L: -exceptionally useful R: How is it useful? L: It is a key part of language to be able to say the thing. R: *laughs* L: And a fruit fly- I am confident that there is some way in which a fruit fly is beneficial to an ecosystem but I am unfamiliar with it. R: You can't see it. You can't see it. L: So I'm- R: Okay L: I'm going to say "the" R: Alright, well there it is. L: So, how about you? "Would you rather be a fruit fly or the word 'the'?" R: Okay. Mostly because you chose the fruit fly and I just feel the need to be contrary L: I chose the word "the" R: You chose the word- you- I mean you chose the word "the". I'm going to choose the fruit fly. L: Okay R: There are a couple reasons why. Number one, I know this is a thought exercise and when it's done to get to go back to being me, because fruit fly has a short, exciting lifespan. They wake up in the morning and by the end of the day, they're done. L: I'm not sure that's true. I think they've got at least a couple of days. R: Okay, well then, a couple of days. Compared to my life span? They don't have time for dullness. By the time I've gotten out of bed and to my cup of coffee they've made it through college. You know? If you- if you look at time- they're having adventures. Stuff is going down and they're tiny. The world is massive. It's always happening. Everything's like a rave because- fruit fly society must be a constant party. Why? Because you know it's coming. You can feel it coming so you party. So I'm gonna say, because I have this lifespan that I'm currently having and I get to go right back to it, I'm going to choose that. Plus one other reason and it's a negation reason, that's why didn't lead with it. L: Okay R: I think the definitive article "the" is wonderful because I can say "Hand me the unicycle" but I- you know, "Hand me the piano" Probably not gonna come up but- L: that's- that's a very specific moment if it's- if it does. R: It is specific moment. Hopefully you hand it slow, but the definitive article has its uses but one of the things it does is it narrows things down and it puts things in boxes and I, my nature, I really love being uncategorizable. I feel like there's a freedom in not being too clearly defined. A lot of my outer edges are very clearly defined. I'm an old, graying, orangutan but internally I'm- no one knows. I'm not even sure and because of that I think there's a great freedom if I avoid nearly things down too firmly to change. To evolve. To become something other than what I currently am and that thing is the thing I might be interested in being. Like, for example, I could be a fruit fly for a moment. So I'm not going to go immediately to the- the- the definitive article even though it feels important because I want to try to explore something else, and I'll leave that for you because I'm kind. L: Okay R: Not something people would have expected because I wasn't too firmly nailed down. See what I did there? I changed the opinion people had. For a moment. Aha, he he, ho ho. L: Okay Mister the Clown R: *laughs* L: Next question. R: Oh there's more? L: There- there is another question. R: The- after the fruit fly, I thought the fruit fly thing would certainly have been our buzz off. L: *laughs* R: The question L: The question R: The question L: "Imagine- R: Hang on. Hang on. Okay I'm ready. L: you wake up one morning with swapped clowns. Each just appears in the other's brain bringing what they know with them. What would that be like? What would you do?" R: Wait so, I am to imagine what it'd be like to wake up with your clowns. L: Yes R: *laughs* That's just very uncomfortable. Ah, okay. So, you know, if it's- if it's Chadwick I'm gonna immediately hydrate because I know I'm going to be crying at everything. L: It's true. R: It's just, I'm gonna be a sad boy and I don't- I don't even know how to do that. I'm not good at crying. I'll get a good cry in, for sure. That's good, but I'm going to salt up first 'cause uhwa, constantly. Which is hilarious on stage but to do it, I worry about you. L: Yeah, it- R: Um L: it- it- takes that pre-hydration. Good choice. R: Yeah thank you. I've learned. I've learned. Um- and if it was- if it was Jane, I would immediately go to the theater downstairs and the reason why is that's where all the props are and I would do everything I know because of every clown I've ever worked with, Jane has maybe not the best skills, but the most physical awareness of anyone I've ever interacted with and so I would want those notes of "Oh you're- the reason why it's not working is you need to move your elbow slightly" "Oh, you need to do this" I would learn in like- in like one session I would learn things. L: I will warn you, she does not tell you anything. R: You don't know how it works in here. The clowns are swapped. You don't get to give me notes now. They're mine for a minute, like the fruit fly thing. L: Okay R: It's mine! L: Okay! R: Okay. L: All right. R: All right. Okay. L: Okay. R: I'm sorry I yelled. L: Alright R: I got excited. L: It's okay. R: I'm not going to cry though. Even though, you know, it's here now. I've got the- I've got the Chadwick. L: *laughs* R: could use it though, but I think- I think those are the two things that immediately come to mind because they're both- they're both very fundamentally different than how I operate because while I certainly use my physical skills, they're not a thing I have like i- I the performer have a deep, how many hours I spent to be able to do that thing, awareness but the- that's just stuff they do, Um- and then you know, ah- while my clown certainly have a lot of emotional access, I'm not much of a crier. I wish I was. I wish that was a thing I was- I can get one good loud sob in, but I- I don't- I don't generally have that weepy cry, not as a rule. L: Yeah R: not a rule. L: Yeah R: So I think that would be- I think that be useful, it would be educational. I think I would learn things. So yeah. I think that's the answer- I think that's the answer to the question. I don't know, ah- because there's also, I mean there's other- there are other clowns and- or little personas you've played with that I- I don't know well. I don't know their names. L: *Affirmative Noise* Yeah R: There was, you know, the side pony thing that showed up in workshop that we hated so much. L: Oh yeah, that *redacted*. R: Yeah, yeah. If she showed up, I hated her so much that I- I don't know that I'd- I would probably just throw her out of my head. I don't know. Maybe. Or maybe I would- I would learn some sort of kindness. I don't- I don't know. She didn't. L: She R: That's why she was so funny. L: Yeah she was kind of- R: Because she was kind of a- she was kind of a proto-villain. We didn't let her- we didn't really let her go far- far enough to find out. L: Yeah R: Um- but yeah, I think those are the ah- I think those are- those are the ones that come to mind, um- and anything else I can think of that I've seen you do is still kind of emergent and I don't know well enough to go "Oh, yeah" other than just a copy. So I think that's ah- I think that's where I'll leave that. L: Alright. R: So for you, you poor thing, imagine- imagine you wake up one morning with- with my- with *laughs*. Poor thing, I don't even know where to start. You have to deal with them in your- in your head. You got- you've got them, each- "each just appears in the other's brain, bringing what they know- what they know with them. What would that be like and- and- and what would you do?" L: That's a very, that's a very complicated question. R: How is it complicated? I immediately had answers. L: You did immediately have answers, and in this moment where I'm going to acknowledge, again, this is the second time we've done this. This is one of the ones I remembered. Um I remembered it because of the level to which I locked up on this one. Just absolutely completely locked up. R: Which I find baffling L: 'Cause all I could feel was that I follow that person all the time, and I have- and my clowns follow that clown all the time, and I- I could not for the life of me figure out what it is that they would do. R: Is that because they're unpredictable? Or is that because you just- you only were watching their butt? I mean what is- what was going on that you- you were back there? L: Well see, so what it is, what I- what I- what I reached by the end of it, is that it's so dependent on their audience. On a lot of things and that's because I think one of the most defining things your clown does, R: Yeah L: is they flirt R: Oh they do L: They flirt with everybody and everything. R: True L: and I think, honestly I got overwhelmed, trying to process what all of that was, because it all actually boils down to flirting. R: But- but not- not necessarily flirting with a mission. L: No. No, flirting like a baby flirts. It's R: Thank you. L: It- It- I don't think that they would have any idea- this is a dog chasing a car, has no idea what they would do if they caught it. R: I am not going to answer that question if it comes up. L: *laughs* but is most certainly what it seems like. If- if there's- there's not- there's not intent, there's just flirting.Um- but- but in the second time that I'm hearing this, one of the other things that I think is so- would be such a weird experience R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Would also be the fact that the others wouldn't be in my head R: Ooh! L: The idea R: You finally have some quiet L: The idea of my clowns not being in here and being somewhere else. One, I'd be very curious about the experience of them coming back having been R: "We've seen things!" L: Having seen things R: "Hold us!" *laughs* L: and- and- and two, just- just it's such, that would be such a different- such a different experience and I don't have a lot of great words for that. R: Do you have any thoughts on what it would be like to not have- you know, to have a little vacuum where your funny goes? Because you would have my funny, but it would be in a different place? The way I imagine it? L: Oh weird. R: You have any thoughts about that? Because that's a really interesting question. L: Yeah I don't know if our funny is in the same place. It isn't. R: That's what I'm saying L: So it would be totally different. R: Yeah L: and that's and- R: you'd be simultaneously feeling that void L: Yeah R: it'd be like having a phantom limb. L: I think it would be. It be like "Where is-" R: This clown would be like flirting with you, you'd be like "Shut up, I'm trying to figure out where my leg is" L: Kind of. R: *laughs* L: It's like "But I- But I need to flirt with everybody" So like "Okay, yeah we can do that but-" R: Gotta hop L: "give me- give me a second" R: *laughs* L: yeah, "no, we're gonna hop! Give me a second" I'd also- I'd also probably- No. You've never managed to actually bring any of that back, so I don't know if I could. R: With what? L: I was gonna say I'd- I'd- I'd let him glance at maps of the local area because R: Oh he's got a better sense of direction than I do, yeah. L: Way better sense of direction than you do and I know mine could use some help and I'm like *laughs* R: You're trying to- trying to borrow my L: Trying to borrow R: superpower. L: Borrow that superpower, but I have never seen you successfully do that so- R: I don't- I neither know why that's true, nor how it works, or why it works but it has been consistently true and the only logic I've ever had on it is that I would be in big trouble if I got lost on an event site, like if I literally got lost L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and so that panic lives so deeply in me that I refuse to wander and so I look at a map and I just absorb it and 3D it in my head in a way that I've- only my crisis clown state could- possibly could. Like me as a person, I'm just like "No, we're just lost. We're just going to sit down and hope someone finds us" L: and that's- R: That's what's going to happen L: that is not an option for your clown and so R: apparently L: that's not what happens. R: because there's- there's flirting to be done. Yeah. L: Yeah. R: Yeah. I don't know. L: So that's- I think that's- I think that's what I've got. R: You've got- you've got look at maps, L: Look at maps, R: try to- L: and find- and that's the other problem, of course, is I'd have to go find people. R: Yeah, it's- it's often like that. Well, I only wish you had more of an opinion. Of that- of that guy L: I R: I find it interesting, I mean, you and I have performed together for years and you have no idea what that would be like. L: I don't. I don't understand how that- how that person works. R: Look, I don't either but I can make some guesses. L: I know R: It's fascinating L: I know that they do. I'd probably also drop things. R: Probably. I'd also wear stripes. L: Oh that would make sense R: Jane wears stripes L: Jane wears stripes. R: Jane wears stripes, I'd probably wear a lot of stripes. L: I'd probably have to wear some orange. R: or baggy pants L: and baggy pants. R: and you look bad in baggy pants. That's weird. It's almost as if the clown was made for me and your clown's made for you. L: Yes R: Almost. L: Almost, very nearly. R: Probably not, you know, 'cause mine just came from a discount shop but, L: *laughs* R: Alright, next question. Let's go. L: You're the one with the cards. R: Oh *sounds of picking up cards* R: Friend, that's it. L: That's it? R: That's the- we've- we've answered that one. We've done it. L: Op, yeah, that's all of them. R: The time- the time flew by as we got caught up in the deep woods with our friends. I- I really enjoyed this one. L: I did too. This was fun. R: It was so good I had it twice. L: Yes R: and it was good and ah- thank you for listening. I pretend that you've listened to us twice, and L: I'm impressed if any of you had actually listened to us twice. R: If you do listen to this twice, I'm curious why. L: *laughs* R: I'm not- I'm not saying "Don't do it." I think that's wonderful but I'm curious why you've come back. Um- in the meantime, thank you so much for spending some time with us. L: Yes thank you very, very much. Please send us your questions. R: Oh yeah, because now that we're not- we're not going to be saving them up between- L: Yes, so there won't be big announcements like "New- new season, send questions" just send questions. R: Just impulse control problem. You have a question. You ask us. We'll get it in- we'll get it in- L: We'll get it in the we'll R: in the list. L: It just R: The queue L: It needs to hit my email address at some point, at some point. R: Wow. So- so you don't want to tell anybody- you- "It's gotta be emailed to me in triplicate on the correct paperwork" I like that there's paperwork and carbon papers. I'm so old my email address has carbon papers underneath it so my other email address gets copies. What? L: *laughs* R: Let me- Let me help. Liam? Who do- you- you work- this- this production is a production of the Circus Freaks. L: Yes R: and- and- as you know, their website is circus freaks dot org. L: Yes R: And Um- your first name at that address would likely get a question- I'm gonna just put it on the website. It'll be easier. L: Yeah R: I'm just gonna stick it on website. Just- just send us a message. L: No, and if you send it to us on- on fedi, or R: Or to me. L: That will also reach us. R: Carrier pigeon. If you send it in a card. Um- If you show up at our doorstep we're probably gonna be surprised because that would be surprising but if you- if you get us a question we will add to the queue and anytime you said it, figure out what our slogan is, L: Oh, yes please send us slogans R: and at the time we record this we are- we are just before the holidays and a- here, I- and- and I know not everyone celebrates, and I don't know what everybody does and all I'm going to say is it tends to be an emotional meat grinder for people. L: Yes R: It tends to be rough, and so, go gently with yourself and if you see someone who's maybe a little wound up, maybe realize they're going through it too and go gentle with them. If you can. If you can't? I mean, don't take crap. Don't do that but go gentle if you can and take care of yourselves because we can't come over there and do it for you right now because we're working on the building, and I think we'll see you next time right here on L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: *whispering* Oh, so good. L: I did it this time. R: You did. With- there was no- there was no gap. L: *Negation Noise* R: It was really nice. Alright. *silence* R: I missed it! Did you feel it? L: Yes, I did. R: That was- it was like L: That was it. R: I got caught up in it. L: And you were just sitting here R: And it was still here L: going "and I'm here" R: *sighs* yeah. L: This episode brought to you by mistakes. R: Mistakes. They're beautiful. L: They are. R: They are, all right. L: Okay R: We'll see you next time *door opens* *theme music plays*