----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 23 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2025-03-18 ----------------------------------- *door closes* Russ: Wow. Back in the theater! Liam: Welcome back. R: What happened to the theater is they let us in. I get to do this, I'm going to walk across the stage to get to you. Are you ready? L: Yes R: I- I'm excited. This is the best part for me. I walk on the stage and suddenly the lights hit me and I think to myself *gasp* "people" *floor creaking* R: and the floor creaks under my feet it's great. It's great. It' great. Alright L: It looks good. R: Thank you. That's important for radio, as you know, or recordings, or podcasts, or anything of an auditory nature L: Of course. R: I see you're here at the table and hello friends. L: (in a sing-song voice) Hello. R: We've missed you. We decided to come downstairs, it's also daytime so at any moment there might be a dog barking or car driving by, bear with us. We'll edit- L: Or children home from school. R: Right. They may- they may come- they may come barreling through at any moment. If so, accidental guest stars all around on this exciting episode of L: "Two clowns in a Closet" R: Wow so smooth. It's like we're ready to work. L: Yeah R: Well it is- it is the- we no longer have seasons L: Correct R: So this is the second episode? No, first episode of twenty twenty five? Or second? L: I- R: Aaah! We didn't look it up. L: I think it's the second one. I think the other one did come out in early January. R: Hmmn. I do know that I did get a lovely offer of a slogan. L: Oh? R: I did, because last episode, if you recall, I asked for slogans and I got one. L: Yes. What is the slogan of the podcast? R: Okay well L: this- this episode R: You have to- you have to say "This episode of" L: This episode of "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: Or, as the slogan puts it, "What is the sound of two clowns unpacking?" L: Nice. R: Isn't that? That's great. L: I like it. R: We might stick with that one, because we're still un- at least until we're done unpacking, or we get another one. L: Yes R: Yes but here- but here we are. Still- still not unpacked, certainly. L: No. R: The building- the building updates, things- things have slowed but are moving. We finished a bunch of electrical work. L: We did. We got all of the bedrooms upstairs rewired, R: Yeah L: so they're grounded, things are safer. R: Yeah, electrical fans, take note that if you brought a fan here it would work safely L: Yes R: and in the correct direction, because some of those were wired backwards. Which is- was terrifying. The other thing we've done work on is we have broken ground extensively on our future library. L: Yes R: And by broke L: You built a wall. R: I did. The- the most untimely thing I could have done during this portion of the real world was to build that wall and I L: It's more accurate that you closed in a door. R: I ripped out a door. L: You ripped out a door. R: Which is a- I ripped out door and then I framed a door and then you and I hauled a bunch of drywall up there and- and L: Stuck it in there. R: Stuck it in there and- and mudded and did all the things. There's a wall where a door once was and that alone is a big job that I didn't realize I was gonna get to do and- and I patched so much drywall in my life than I thought "Oh there's no problem!" I had no idea how to do that. I'd never done it before. L: It was fun to be honest. R: Yeah L: We got to use some new, well some new to me, power tools. R: What did you use that was so exciting? L: I used a saw R: You did L: That I hadn't used before. R: It was very exciting. L: Yeah, I mean, it was a circular saw, R: I saw L: It's not a big deal but R: I saw you do it. L: Ah- Ah! Ah! Ah! I see what you did there. R: I'm here for the puns. Here for the puns. I think the- I think the thing is- it is- every job we do takes longer than we think. Every job we do is harder than we think. Every job we do is more frustrating than we think, but we do keep thinking, we do keep doing stuff. L: Yes R: And that, that is the part that, on that on that side of things, keeps me going. Um, it's always- it's always strange because I sit there and- and a week ago we were talking about this, we were "Oh, we're going to record, we should talk about it a little bit" and I was- I was initially very upset, because I'd be like "Oh, nothing has happened" and then I look at the list of all L: And you're like "Plenty has happened, lots of stuff got done" R: So much and I'm just talking here in the building. Yes, so much- so much is happening it's a matter of scale and perspective. If you zoom in on it it's overwhelming and if you zoom out on it, it never feels like enough and there's gonna be, in my mind, on any project, big or small, there's gonna be a moment where you hit the correct level of zoom and you're like "Huh, stuff's happening" and so what I'm focusing on today is "Huh, stuff's happening". Personally I do have a piece of advice for my friends who are doing any sort of renovation stuff and then I don't want to talk about renovations anymore. L: Okay. R: I do have one. Get yourself a shop-vac attachment for your sander because the- this is a hel- a human health warning. The- One of the jobs in fixing up this room was sanding the ceiling and patching up the ceiling, 'cause the ceiling is blown apart and cracked through and terrible and we're- we're fixing it. L: Yup. R: Soon- soon it will be beautiful. Right now L: It needs work. R: It needs work, and some of that work has been done, but I initially just put on a respirator L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and went up there and *blows raspberry* and got so covered in dust that it got in through the respirator and I was very sick for a few days. Um, I'm fine, everything's good but I learned a lesson and we went and we got a wild shopvac attachment which attaches to the hand sander- not a motorized sander, just like a hand sander with a vacuum hanging off the end and the first time I used it I- I turned it on and I stuck it to the ceiling and it stuck to the ceiling L: That's too- that's too much vacuum R: and the bucket that it was attached to that was acting as a filter imploded. L: Once again, too much vacuum. R: Right. It sucked. L: Really well. R: Exact- woah. That' fine. So, I got all the adjustments. I got the thing dialed in. I got a stronger bucket and the advice is set all this up. It feels like a lot of stuff, 'cause the second time I went back to sand the ceiling, while it was so much slower because I was constantly moving around this hose and- me movin' my hose around L: Yeah R: and talking about sucking, that's what I'm doing today. L: That's what we're doing today. R: That's what I'm doing today, but meanwhile, while I'm up there, the room is not turning into a cloud L: Which is good to have R: and I wasn't sick the next day. L: Yes. R: and the entire upstairs is not covered in dust and these are good things that I wish I had known sooner and so, please, whenever you're doing anything beyond a little tiny bit of scale, consider getting the right tools for the job. L: Yeah R: It's a continuous lesson for me. L: We keep getting that lesson. R: I keep getting that lesson. L: Again and again and again. R: Figure out what you need, and go get that. L: Yes. R: Give it to yourself and say "Here is a gift for you" L: Yes. R: "So you don't die" So, that is my advice to you, is figure out what you need, give it to yourself and get the right tools and don't breathe wall dust. L: Good- good advice, all around. R: Do you have any- any building notes, updates? L: Building notes and updates, um, There's the electrical, which we already mentioned. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: There is going to be a little bit of a slowdown in building stuff. R: That is going to be true. L: Coming up, because I am getting top surgery in a little less than a month. So we'll see whether that is before or R: Or right after L: after this episode comes out. That depends on how fast I transcribe. Um- R: I suspect that your- your transcription will come to a complete halt for some period of recovery time. L: Possibly. R: Or you may sit there with nothing better to do. L: I might end up just- just spending a little bit of time doing that. R: I'm actually trying to be really wordy and charming, to that person, thinking "Well, you know, that might be a fun way to recover is to-". L: So much- so much work to do. R: Yeah just, I'm using a lot of extra words and being loquacious and enticing with my verbiage and attempting to create a few bon mots for the purposes of elocution. L: Of course, you're doing it all in the first few minutes of the podcast R: Oh I'm gonna get tired. L: that I'm definitely could done with before. R: Yeah, I'm going to blow my wad and just grunt at the end of it. I'm sure of it. L: Which is so much fun to figure out how to spell R: *Questioning Grunt Noise* It's true. So L: but so there will be a little bit of recovery time from that in which I don't get to lift anything heavy or R: Right. L: do a lot of heavy work so it'll be a little bit before I get back to doing a lot of house building-ness. R: I'm also- I'm also excited because- and this, it's a weird sort of excitement for me, the last serious injury- not that I celebrate that at all, that you had, you sprained two wrists and you came back from it and you came back stronger. L: Yes R: And- and your handstands actually got better. It was a handstand related injury, and you came back better than- than you were. L: Very well rested and then R: *Laughs* L: and then retrained, yeah. R: and I'm so curious to watch the curve of you- not just recovering, but are who do you become after you take that break and you come out of it and- and- and work. L: Oh, it should be very interesting. The recovery process should be very interesting and the recovery specifically back into doing circus stunts and acrobatics and handstands because uh, my center of gravity is going to change. R: Yeah. L: So R: Picking you up is going to be completely different. L: So it's gonna be completely different and I'm very much looking forward to that exploration and finding out what that looks like. I've actually been doing a silly game online. I do- So, every time I have a caffeinated beverage, I do a handstand before I have it. R: We've talked about the coffee L: I think we've talked about the coffee handstands here. R: Yeah, the coffee handstand count L: And the coffee handstand count with my- with my injury- with my wrists got to two hundred and five um, because I keep count when I can't do it and I won't be able to do handstands for a while R: And so L: and so I will be keeping count again and so I have put forward to my friends and those who I chat with online, a silly little game of "Guess how high the coffee handstand count will reach before I start working it back down?" R: Are you going to include our listeners in this? Are you going to encourage them? L: If this is out before R: Even if it is after, you're still L: I mean after that I'll still be recovering, so yeah, definitely. If R: Tell L: If you have a guess. R: How many handstands will- will Liam owe the coffee handstand bank. L: Yes, for, for everybody here who didn't see the online ask on this. General guidelines, I tend to have two coffees a day, on average. R: Because you don't have a problem. L: I don't have a problem. R: You have a solution and that solution is coffee L: Exactly R: dissolved in water L: Exactly R: Usually boiling. L: So- so that's a silliness of- of the moment looking- looking into the future. R: future's good. L: But that's- that's building news. Um- R: And we'll- and we'll if- if we record again- I mean obviously we're going to record again, but I mean once you're- once you're back up enough, and thinking about wanting to record again, we'll check in about this. It's not going to- certainly not going to be the focus of our discussions here, because our focus L: Oh no 'cause R: of our discussions are the questions. L: yeah. R: But yeah, just like the building, we're gonna check in with what's going on. L: Um, speaking of checking in R: *Affirmative Noise* L: on things that people actually, have asked questions about, but I already addressed those questions and they've since had an update. R: You're going to have to explain yourself. L: People have asked about my clown persona and R: Oh! Speaking of things that happen here. L: Being- given- given the gender shift um- I- and then the break from going out and performing, I didn't know who my clown was likely to be and whether Jane was staying in, whether I'd be dealing with Chadwick, who I'd be interacting with when I got back to that state but I have gotten back into clown state for a very fun and silly day in the gym and I can say that my clown is back. Is clearly feeling like they've got history both as Jane and as Chadwick. R: You've blended. L: So I appear to have blended the two um R: Wow. L: and he's exceptionally chill. R: All I know is that you came in the room and there are- there are costume pieces attached to this, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: it was Jane's shirt. L: It was Jane's shirt yeah. R: And a minute I saw that, I went "Well that wouldn't be out without a reason, maybe- maybe there will be an attempt" and then I watched you light up and as- as a clown teacher, I went into that, there's a mode, a provocateur support mode, L: Yup R: Where instead of being excited and playing with this- this person- "Oh I want to play games with this person" 'cause that's, you know, that's what my clown wants, is that's my clown's- my best friend is my clown, and that is my clown's best friend, So that's my best friend's best friend right there. I- I want to hang out with that person. L: Yes R: but I also knew that you needed- you needed that support and it was so interesting to like, sort of like constantly bat at you and then leave you alone to go discover and watch you out of the corner of my eye the entire night having all of those discoveries and being very in and very excited, and very on. And it was- it was sort of like babysitting someone else's child I imagine, it was just rambunctious person running around L: Yup R: and occasionally showing up and saying something brilliant and running off again it was L: Yup R: it was great. For me it was great. I'm looking forward to seeing more of that and I think that's one of those things that in all the building doing and all the, you know, the life stuff and everything else, we get- we forget that you gotta do the work and that has been one of these big hanging questions is what will- what will come of this? L: *Affirmative Noise* Yeah R: So I mean I'm- I'm very excited because this means- this means we're going to get to see that clown and- and perhaps other characters and other things we'll see what that unlocks and time L: Yeah. We have not asked that person uh, what their name is. R: We need to. L: So that has not happened yet. We did check in on what their hairstyle is. R: How did we check in on their hairstyle? L: You asked? R: Did I think to ask? Wow. L: Yeah, you thought to ask directly what they wanted in- in their hair. My hair was a bit overgrown at the time and kind of doing that like, round shape, and R: What was the answer? L: They, he said something to the effect of "So long as it's up" but there was a hand gesture of of my hands to the side of my head going upward that very much indicated a hairstyle I favor anyway R: Well that works out well. L: Um, of- R: I have to look like this. L: Sort of the- the shaved down sides and floppy on top. So, R: It suits you. L: It- it seems to work. R: There you go. L: Haven't had them back out since then, mostly because it took me forever to get around to- to cutting my hair and since they'd actually said something about it, I didn't want to bring him back out with R: The same L: the wrong hair. R: Well there you go. Well that is- that is a big piece of news L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I suspect as- as we, you know, as we continue exploring we'll- we'll bring updates about that. I think that's- that's the good stuff. L: Oh, definitely. Yeah. R: Um, yeah. L: And if you have specific questions, do ask, I- I'm- I'm looking forward to finding answers R: Yeah, well yeah, and I think from a- from a, you know, teacher/provocateur/facilitator standpoint this also means that you are technically the first clown, your clown is the first clown to have wandered in here, because L: That may be true. R: That may be true, because I would argue that mine, I don't know if mine showed up or not I- I don't know. Actually, there was there was some stuff we did early on, so maybe, but the point is, beyond me it's very exciting that there's clown here now. L: Yes R: There's- there's the- I don't- I don't like to use words like "energy" because it sounds more woo than I intend, even though what I mean is very woo L: Yes R: So, that energy has pervaded the room. It's good. L: Yeah, it's good, it's good. R: It's good. It's good. I think we've bantered. L: I think we have bantered. R: We've bantered well L: We should probably get into the questions. R: Yeah, we don't have- we don't do words from our sponsors. We do random words from friends. L: Yes, we already- we're already gave the- R: The slogan, L: slogan R: but that's not a random word from a friend. L: Do you have a random word from a friend? R: Ruminating L: Ruminating. R: was a random word from a friend. L: Okay R: Yeah L: There's a random word from our friends R: That's right L: and now, R: now what? L: back to the questions. R: We hadn't started the questions, how can we get back to them if we hadn't started yet? L: I don't know, but that's always what you do after the word from sponsors R: You are so bad at this. L: You then go back to R: Oh! L: the thing. R: This is like saying "Here's me with the weather, now back to you in the studio" L: Yes, exactly. R: Here's me with the weather. Now back to the questions. L: Here they are, I've got them. R: Okay. The weather was nice, by the way, thank you for asking. Rude. Rude. L: I'm glad you enjoyed it. R: Rude. L: It's a little bit chilly. R: It is. We are in the- we're in the tail end of winter here. Which, the seasons sort of go like this: "Wow it's cold", "No, it's not", "Wow it's cold", "No, it's not". Over and over and over until suddenly apparently it's spring. L: That seems to be what it's doing. R: Yeah. We're- we're just doing that. So during the day it gets up to beautiful temperatures and a night, "Wow, it's cold" L: Yup. R: I'm gonna say it one more time *dramatic pause* R: "Wow, it's cold" but not right now. Right now it's fine. L: Yeah, right now it's lovely R: It's a little chilly L: but it's- it's lovely. R: Sure. We've gotten off track. L: Are you ready for the first question? R: Me? L: Yes. R: Yeah. Sure. I love questions. L: Alright then. R: give me something to do with my time. L: I will read you the question. R: You'll read the question for my benefit? You're probably reading them also for our friends' benefits L: Well, yes. R: who are not here to read them themselves. Don't make this all about me. L: It's not all about you, R: It's somewhat about me. L: but this question is directed towards you first because I'm the one who happens to be holding the pile of cards. R: I feel like this is a power move and I'm suspicious but continue. L: All right. "What's the biggest thing you ever saw inside a theater?" R: "The biggest thing I ever saw inside a theater?" discounting my- a thing? L: Thing. R: So, not my ego. L: No. R: Not- not- L: I don't think you can see someone's ego. R: Woah, you can- you can feel mine. L: You can see evidence of someone's ego, and as you can feel it, but I don't think you could see it. R: Yeah. My charisma? Not so much, but my ego? Yeah. "Biggest thing I've ever seen a theater?" Wow. And a theater, because you know it's easy to- L: Inside a theater. R: Not an arena, nah. I'm- I'm at a dead split between a scale puppet of- an- a fully mechanical elephant. L: Ooh. R: That was the size of an elephant, and a pirate ship L: Oooh. R: From a production of "Peter Pan". Those are the two things that I immediately think of. So I'm going to go with the elephant because we want a real- a real answer here. L: Yes R: And the elephant was amazing. That was from- it was a circus theatre show, a circus musical show L: Oh R: nineteen- L: El- oh you're right it was.. R: You're thinking about "Elephantom" which is a different show. L: I'm thinking of "Elephantom" which is the different show with a puppet elephant. R: But that was a smaller elephant. It's a smaller elephant. "Circus nineteen thirteen" or "1903". "1903" I think. I've- I've lost the name. It had nothing to do with history, it just happened have a number in it's name and I remember- I remember seeing it with a bunch- we went with a bunch of circus people who were L: Yes we did. R: And we went- we ran into a bunch of circus people, which was sort of funny and the show is just a musical that is circus-y-esque. L: Yeah, it's a circus R: Yeah L: It's set in a circus. R: It's set in a circus, so of course all the circus people went there to go "How'd you do?" and we all walked out saying the same thing "Elephant!" L: Exactly! R: The- all of us- L: That's what we said, all of us, "Elephant!" R: Yeah, I ran- I ran into an old juggler friend I hadn't seen in years there. Wow. This is- I'm having like a flash- vivid flashback to an event which literally happened L: Many years ago. R: Fifteen years ago. This is- this is a pointless ramble, and so get me my- get me out of it. Grabbing my- grabbing my peepers here, my- my reading glasses. Try to- try to imagine me, friends, somewhat smarter now because I have the reading glasses on. Thank you. "What's the biggest thing you ever saw inside a theater?" L: Well, I also saw that same elephant puppet. R: You did. L: Which was very large. R: It was the size of an elephant. L: Yes. And so I don't know whether this other one was actually bigger or smaller R: Just L: but R: risk it L: I was in a production of "Into the Woods" and part of that is a giant's head. R: The giant, yeah, the giant. L: The giant fall- falls down at one point R: and is on- is sort of on set for half the- of the second act. L: No, no it's not. R: Isn't it? L: It's really just there for like a minute but R: I've seen a production with it and left it- L: Where they just left it there? R: Where they just left a foot in the background *laughs* L: So, So I have seen a giant's head. R: So you've seen- but you haven't seen all of the giant. You've seen a- L: Well no, no, no 'cause you can't put the whole giant on the stage. It's too big. R: Well, there'd be no room for the actors. L: Yeah. R: And that would- you'd miss several really good numbers L: but there was that, there was also very large tree. I got to be inside the tree. That was fun. R: Well it was big enough to hold you. Would you say was larger than an elephant? L: Probably not though. R: Hmn. L: So it may still be that same elephant, but I figured I'd at least bring a second. R: Elephant and giant. L: Yes. R: That's what we've got. L: Yeah. R: I'm a fan of both. L: Yeah. R: Always be a fan of giants. L: Yes. R: You don't want to- L: Best- best to do that- yes. R: Best to be on the side of giants if you can because they're- they're large and you don't want them to step on you. L: Precisely. R: Exactly. Well that- that question, I think we sorted it. L: Yeah. R: I'm- I'm racking my brain, was there anything else that was big that I've seen on a stage? Ego. Talent. L: Oh, plenty of, R: Yeah L: Yeah R: plenty of that. An entire Euphonium. L: That's pretty big. R: It's large. A marimba. That's not big big big. L: Naw. It's it's not clearly- R: This is looking- "What's the biggest thing you've ever seen?" Yeah, it's looking for a specific sort of bigness. L: Yes R: Friends, I'm fine. Don't worry. L: *laughs* R: I just feel like I need to reassure when I go off on a "Aaah" L: That's fair. R: Yeah. L: That's fair. R: Alright, I'm back. L: "bigness" R: Okay. This one is one of my favorite types of questions because it implies our friends are listening. L: Oh, I love it when R: because this is. L: it implies they're listening. R: this is a question about something we said, which also means Liam, you're going under a bus. L: Oooh, bus time! R: yeah. Metaphorically, a bus. I've seen buses onstage. Were they bigger than elephants? I'm going to say "No" just 'cause I want to move on. L: Okay R: Alright. "In an earlier episode Liam said 'Because one of the things I've been told many times from many teachers is some variant of the idea 'don't copy, steal''. How would you delineate the periphery between copying and stealing?" L: Oh that's a tricky question. R: So, first off, so good and the word 'periphery' was used correctly. L: Yeah, it was beautiful. R: Can we just take a minute be impressed with the smarts of our friends? L: Yes. R: Thank you. L: Most definitely. R: All right. L: Well. Let's see, um R: (whispering) You guys did so good with that one L: The 'don't copy, steal' line, "Where's the dif- where's the difference between copying and stealing" I think- I think that this is one of those- this- this reminds me of the concept of 'The ship of Theseus' Which, if anybody is unfamiliar with is the question, essentially, of, if you have an object, in the case of the ship of Theseus is a ship R: No! L: Right? But if you have R: Who'd it belong to? L: Theseus! R: Get on with it. L: If you have an object, over the course of its life it's going to need repair and so you end up replacing each part of it over time and so there's the question of "Is it still the object- is it still the same object if every single part has been replaced?" R: Hmn L: or "Is there some point partway through where enough obj- parts of the object have been replaced, that it's now a different object?" and that's a lovely thing to just ponder but R: You- you brought a philosophy experiment but not an answer L: but I feel like it's a similar- it's a similar thing. Which is that if I- if I watch an act and I go "Oh my gosh, I want to do that piece" because there are- R: Do you ever look at a whole act and think that? 'Cause I- L: I don't think I ever have. R: It's always to me, it's like one- one- yeah- L: One- one little tiny piece of it but- but- but I do know of people who have essentially copied full acts. R: There are terrible people who steal. Yeah. We know. L: Well, and there's the question of copying vs stealing R: Yeah L: And- and to me, when you look at a piece that you know you want to take, whether it's the full piece of it or part of it. You look at piece and you go "That. I'm doing that." You have to go and approach it and start playing with it and I feel like you essentially swap out your concept of how they did it with your concept of how you do it R: Okay L: and that will be a little pieces at a time, and that's through experimentation and through playing with it. You'll reach a point where it becomes second nature to you, it actually makes sense, you know- if not exactly the "why", it's because that's the next natural step for you. Like, that's how your brain says the next step should go, which may or may not look the same as how it was done by somebody else. And that can end up looking different- like, that can be as simple as "Well, I see this object is onstage, I'm going to walk up to it" or "I'm going to crouch down and look at it from a distance". Those are two different ways that a clown could approach the fact that there is an object on stage. And it's two of infinite ways somebody might approach that. The one that's true for you, is the honest one R: and carrying each step forward from that place. L: And taking each step forward from that place and so, to me, once you have honestly done every step, whether that ends up looking ex- from the- from the outside, exactly the same as someone else doing it, or completely different from someone else doing it, my feeling is that is the moment where you have successfully reached the other side of copy versus steal and you have now stolen it. Now, I feel- I also feel like- something that is also true about performing work is it's a frequently stated concept that you'll really understand the piece after the first hundred times you've performed it. R: Guilty L: So, you may end up performing something when that ship is only half way rebuilt. Or only a quarter of the way rebuilt. R: I think that's unique to clown because so much of this work is done with the audience. I mean you have to- you have to perform something to understand what they're receiving. L: Exactly and so I think that there's a certain amount of that that's going to happen in workshop R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and I think- I think it's your job as a clown to do a certain amount of that in workshop R: and L: before bringing it to R: Oh, don't inflict it on an audience L: an audience but, I also think that the reality of the situation is, there's only so far you're gonna get in workshop. R: Yes L: and you have to push that. You have to try for that, but that you still may be at only a quarter of really having explored what you're doing, and some of it is still "because it's what the script says" R: Hmn L: but I think you to try to get rid of that as much as possible, so that you understand why you're doing things and you you know where the brain space is of the clown that's doing them. I think part of it's also when your clown starts doing the thing? They're gonna do it their way, and you're very quickly going to discover where you were wrong when you scripted it about what your clown is going to do. R: Oh yeah and- and when those are left in an act? Those incongruities between the script that was copied L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and the- and the ah- the piece that was stolen, that was recreated L: That's where you feel it. That's where it hurts. R: That's where the audience hates you. L: Yeah, and that is why you need to steal rather than copy R: Oh yeah. L: Let your clown run at it R: *Affirmative Noise* L: so that they can fix it, is- is a definite real- it- for me that's- that's the delineation. I don't think that you have to be all the way to stealing. You have to have gotten rid of the really egregious ones. Those ones that someone can really feel. R: You have to bring yourself to it and it to yourself L: but you probably actually won't have gotten all the way R: Nah. L: to steal when you bring in front of an audience R: No L: and that's just not how this works. R: Especially if you're doing a lot of- there's always a period as a performer where you're performing lot and a period where you're thinking a lot. Like, right now I'm in a thinking phase. L: Yeah R: When- when in the past I'm doing act after act and idea after idea, and you're creating and creating, yeah. You'll bring something half baked, especially if someone's like "Just put something on the stage, we don't care what it is" you're like- L: "Ok, if you said so" R: "Ok, that's a great op- That's a great opportunity" Um, obviously you want to bring good work though. L: Yeah, So- for you, "How would you delineate R: Well, what Liam said L: this periphery between copy- copying and stealing" R: Well what Liam said when he was describing the schtick of Theseus is not far from wrong. To start off, that's good. L: I love that. R: The schtick of Theseus L: The schtick of Theseus. R: Yes, Um, the- the idea that you've got- you've got something and you have to- and I said, you have to bring yourself to it and it to yourself. You have to, there's- there's only so many jokes, you know, we've been telling the same jokes in different forms over and over forever and what changes is the setting, the scenery, and the characters. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: The- the details change. L: Yeah R: But- the- but the formulas are- there are not so many formulas for comedy. L: No. R: There're not so many formulas for theater and I think one of the things that I think about is I had an act, ah- I saw a video years ago and you- *sighs* there's this window that- where I'm constantly looking at video and now I try to avoid looking at anybody else's work but I was- I was stealing ideas and I needed ideas. I needed some inspiration. I went looking at some clowns' work and now I look at a lot of video but I really avoid looking at clowns. They do silly things. L: They do. R: I'm not silly. L: *Dismissive Noise* R: But I was looking at this- I was looking at this and it was a very classic clown joke. I'm about to describe in rough bones one of the oldest gags- you don't need to correct it because it is- it is so old that there's been so many versions of it and the clown comes out and- and basically indicates that they are going to do a high dive into a sponge. They take a sponge, they put it in water. They put that in a- in a bowl. They put on the ground. They climb up in a chair, and they go and the- the big production is them getting ready and they dive into the sponge. Now there are- there are many ways this plays out. The most typical way is the clown chickens out at the last second and splashes the water on their face and that's how they get out of it. L: Yes R: They- they splash the water and they act like they did the thing and everybody- everybody has a good laugh and it's a- it's a silly character piece. L: and they've built it up to- to such a degree R: Oh sure. L: that that is- that's something that makes people feel good and not feel R: yeah L: cheated R: and there are some clowns that have actually done like, partial handstands into the sponge and got their face wet and done the gag and there's- there's been enumerate variations. This is a- a f- a recipe that is not interesting. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: What you bring to it is, and I saw this and I knew none of what I just said about the- about the great history of clown at the time. I just saw "That's a piece of material" and I had the guilty feeling of not liking to copy or steal. I didn't understand yet and- it's very early on and so I sent a message, an email, to the- the performer because I- I'd found their info and I said "Can I- can I take a run at this? I see it and I- I'd like to play with it" and they told me "Go for it" L: because they know that they stole it from somebody else too. R: Well, more than that, they later on told me it was an exercise from- from a class they were in and it meant nothing and the video was just class footage. It was literally a meaningless assignment, but they're like- but they didn't tell me that at the time. They were like "I give you permission to explore your creative process" R: Which I thought was great. You know, they- they- they- L: Well that's beautiful. That's building you up. R: They- They built me up and they pushed me gently in front of the bus and said "You go explore everything there" and I said "Okay" and I have- built- I built that into an act. By the time it was done, and this is the comedy of it, by the time I had brought myself to this process, and again the process is to walk out, indicate that you are- not indicate but the show that you are un- a high dive, you know, daredevil character and then you're going to stand on a chair and you're going to do a flip and land in the sponge. L: Yes R: By the time it was done those beats were the only remaining things in common, including the fact that I never stood on the chair. L: Wow, I didn't realize you hadn't gotten on the chair. R: I never stood on the chair. I'll tell you- I'll tell you what happened. So I had this great idea. I have a collapsing chair. I got the collapsing chair because I saw one of- another performer use it and I thought "Ooo, I can never use it the way they used it" L: That makes sense. R: because they sat on it and fell down. L: Oh no. R: The only way to use a collapsing chair. L: That's the only way to use a collapsing chair. R: And of course I've used it that way, but I didn't want to copy them, so I thought to myself "I have to use it", so it went to the back of my closet forever and finally I'm thinking about this act, I said, "You know what'd be really funny? If I go to jump on the chair and the chair collapses!" L: yes R: and then because I can't stand on the chair I have to do the thing. So now there's a reason. L: Nice R: and not only was this good, this was hilarious in the moment, I mean, it's not that funny now but also it set me up at the end of all of that shenanigan, by the time I was done, because I had done a striptease to get out of my bathrobe and put on my bathing cap on stage. 'Cause I mean, I added a lot of L: You added a lot of stuff R: I added a lot of garbage that was probably fundamentally unnecessary, but by the time it was done it was my own little cartoon and I was in a bigger show where the next thing was an act that involved chairs, and my exit in- with this broken chair set up the next act. So by the time it was done, it had changed so much that was unrecognizable and only at that point did the performer who gave me permission say "Oh, that was an exercise. I can't believe what you do with it. What you do with it was great." So sometimes not knowing any better and being given the bones of a framework and being desperate not to look like you're copying is good. L: Yeah R: One thing I wanted to tack on the back of this, you were talking about acts that you perform a bunch times before you know what they really are about. L: Yes R: Sometimes you have a fully formed idea. In fact I once had a fully formed idea and it was about broken hearts and breakups and things and I was in the middle of- I hadn't gotten to the breakup yet, so I put that act away until the break up was done L: Like you do R: And then I brought it out, and it was- it was a great act. And I've talked about it before but I had another act, and it was- I wanted to do an homage to several different clowns. There's a- there is a thing clowns do, I've done many times, where you put your arm through a jacket on a hat rack and it becomes a character. L: I think you've talked about the hat rack R: And I've talked about the hat rack a bit on the show but one of the things is I performed that dozens of times before I watched a video of it and realized that it was a story about like, imposter syndrome L: *laughs* R: and the desire for someone to give you, sort of that- that fatherly chuck on the shoulder permission to do a thing and basically being told "It's okay to be this" by this sort of ghost of Charlie Chaplin that was in the room. L: You didn't know that was what the act was about? R: Not what I wrote it. Not when I perform- it's so obvious, of course when you watch it now. That's what you- L: When you watch it it's very obvious. R: It's completely obvious, however, in creating it "I just want to do the schtick and some hat tricks" and I walked in completely unaware that- and- and I remember bringing this to a show and I was very excited about it and very passionate about it because I was gonna get to do this act L: *Affirmative Noise* R: in front of a lot of people and there was a very well known performer there and the well known performer used to work with circuses and knows a lot of clowns and he walked back stage and he said "You stole Kenny Raskin's bit" and I was like "Oh, I've been found out" and he said "but you did really interesting stuff with it. Well done." and at that point I felt golden because even he knew, you're going to take from everything L: Yup R: and bring something of yourself to it. I've had people copy things I've done L: Yup. R: and what they brought to it was completely different than when I brought to it. What I will say is that the most important thing is that idea. That you're brought to it, because if I watch you perform as a character that is not you? That incongruity will make me hate everything that's happening, even if it's good. L: Yeah. What I think it's fascinating is how much you can do something that is- that is not you R: As a character, sure. L: but it has to be you, R: Doing- L: but also not. R: Correct L: and it's very confusing as to level to which that- where the honesty has to be. R: Oh yeah, if I try to come out and be cool no one believes it, but if I try to become cool onstage it's funny but also it's kind of cool and we play with that, you know. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Um, There's been so many- there have been so many acts where the goal was to- to play something that was- was off-type and what my solution was, almost always, and it goes back to like, early mime stuff I did. Which was to become the character onstage. Let the audience see you go to the transformation so they accept you. Let them see you. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and then become- and I mean let them see the clown L: Yes R: and then let the clown become "wild west", "cool guy", "learn how to juggle" you know whatever, let them see the journey so they accept it and then they- they'll play with you. L: Yeah, yeah. R: Um, but yeah I think- I think, for me, the- the tearing something apart and there's a little bit of fear of imposter syndrome and when that has been removed, you've probably stolen it. L: You may have successfully stolen it before the imposter syndrome goes away. R: but- but you- but you notice- but you notice. That's the thing is that I never internally know. Everybody seems to think I have answers to these questions but the reality is, until I do them? Sometimes I sit down here and I've thought about an answer to something, by the time being honest about it, I don't know. I don't know any more than anyone else. What I know is that I have seen a lot of material where- and as- as a teacher, I've seen a lot of material where I've seen a- a student bring something that they clearly were doing pop culture, they'd seen on a video, they'd watched a circus and decided "I'm going to do that" and they try to copy it exactly L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and it was like watching someone wearing a suit that didn't fit. It was- everything was like "I really want to see what's going behind all this bad stuff" and what's funny is, of course, the stuff they were copying was the stuff I hated and the stuff that they did, like I- even if it was an act I didn't know. I'd start tearing things away and I'd go "What about this one thing?" and they would go "Oh, I just do that", I go "Yeah, but that's the good thing" L: Yeah, that's the good part. R: Do that L: Do that part. R: So, um, yeah. I mean, it's really- it's- it's strange just how noticeable it is, for such a, you know, for such a hand wavy like obscenity "I know it when I see it" sort of thing. It's so- it feels so obvious when I see a performer copying versus having made something their own and it's visceral for me. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I feel it L: Yeah R: and I'll- and I'll ask and that's the key thing, is if you get a chance to ask the performer and I'm talking in a workshop situation, never do this to a performer L: No. R: but in a workshop situation, as a teacher, when I have asked I said, you know, "Is this yours?" and they go "No." They'll collapse instantly. They know. They know it's not theirs. L: Yeah R: Whereas the acts that I've gotten to where- even if I've copied them, like the- the high dive, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: My high dive, it's now "my high dive" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Well, me and the rubber duck, L: Yeah, like R: but it's- it's a completely different experience by the time it's over because I've- just, like you said, you've changed enough things out that it's not just the floorboards the infrastructure changed because the big thing is the clown is the infrastructure L: yeah R: And that's changed. L: Yeah. Good answer. R: It took tearing apart a building and seeing some infrastructure to be able to say those words. I'm so glad I came. *laughs* L: Well, speaking of the building. R: Oh? L: Well done, you've managed to do a R: Did I do one of those organic segue things L: You did a R: I keep hearing about? L: You did an organic segue. R: Wow. L: This next question R: I want everyone to know that I'm not that good, and I didn't plan this. L: This next question is, "After the building is prepared, what are some of the projects that are planned?" R: Wow. Okay. So, there's two thoughts I want to say here before a roll in this, in this mud. One is this project is so much more overwhelming than I thought that I don't actually think we'll ever finish. L: *laughs* R: I now- I have now accepted that, that it is- I mean it'll, it'll get better, it'll continue to grow and evolve but now I had to let go of this idea of "When the building is finished" it's not ready for guests particularly, or us even, but I don't feel like it's ever gonna get done, 'cause we've got ideas that go on and on and on way longer than my- my useful lifespan um, you know, which is a debatable on it's own, but that- that one thing I want on the table and then the other is, the most exciting thing that's been happening around here is the messy art that's happening in the middle of construction. The clown shows up in room. There are boxes everywhere. There was a clown running amongst the boxes, looking in the boxes. I feel like to some degree, I mean, I want some control over that process, that's cool. That's important L: *Affirmative Noise* R: We've played music in here. We have made art and linocuts and we've done music and we've- we've recorded podcasts. There's things already happening and I feel like it's really important to never- to never cancel play time until the work is done because the work will always be ongoing. L: Okay R: So I want to- I want to preface everything in my answer under those two- under those two things. It's never going to get finished and because of that, I have to play all the time. That said, I know that there will come a point where things will be less day to day chaotic than they are right now. We will have less renovation and more growth L: *Affirmative Noise* R: at some point and it may happen before that point but- but during- but during that point there are few things I really want. L: Yes R: and here they are, in no particular order. One, masks. Trance masks, full masks, clowns who are masks were such a big topic right before we moved. I mean, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: they were such a- right before we moved, right before the world shut down, I- twenty nineteen we were studying mask, twenty- early twenty twenty we were very interested in mask and throughout last few years I've been making masks. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I now have a collection of them that have never been performed. L: Yes. R: So one of the things I really want to do is get those masks out and get them onto people and get characters happening. I want to see what happens. That may just be a silly day in the lab. That may be the seeds of a show. L: Yup. R: So those are both very, very real things. So that's- that's the first one, is masks as a meta category. L: Yes R: Two, I would like to get some artists here and I use that term in the hand wavy-est way possible "artist", creative people here and get their- get their input into the walls. Whether it's painting a mural or making a song or workshopping. I- I want this to not- and I've been saying this forever, so it's just an old- it's an old thing for me, but it's very true. If this place is just my voice or our voice then it's a- it's an edifice to my impostor syndrome at that point, you know, it's- it's just- it's just a place that's just my ego hanging- that big ego, like the elephant, but if other people see the value in what we do and wanna come and play in it too and leave their mark on it? They want to put their hand print on the wall of the cave? L: We like that. R: That feels magical, and maje- that every time I'd be walking around sad, I'd go "yeah but somebody came here and they painted that mural" or "they- they- they helped build this thing", "they changed something", So that's- that's a big thing, is the getting- getting other voices here. L: Yes R: The last thing that I want to do here, there are a set of- the- the stage has rails around it. L: Yes R: and the rails are wrought iron, they're beautiful and they surround the stage like it's a playpen and because of that it- it doesn't quite feel like a stage and it's because it was used as a dance floor and I- I want to remove those and have it be L: Yeah definitely, definitely. R: More an open the theater space. I want- I don't want to do that till the room is, you know, we talk about the room is prepared, that'll be one of those last steps, because we go through the whole building we're actually leaving the theater as our staging area, which is why it's always chaos in here. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: We're leaving it for last in many ways. L: Yes R: and because of that, um, sometimes the work feels very far away but I know by the time I'm doing that I'm probably building a show. L: Yeah R: I'm probably building workshops. L: Yeah R: I think right now, to answer, to get back on the question, I'm more interested in workshops than I am the ego of my own performing. Yes, I miss performing, of course but I think I'm very interested in sharing my ideas in the work because I've had- I've had an extended think, *laughs* you know? L: You have R: and I feel like I'm ready to- I'm ready to share some of those ideas in the lab and- and- and give people and I also know that it's some of my favorite memories are a group of people who have decided come together and wor- and- and explore whatever- whatever it is. Whatever theater thing, whatever L: *Affirmative Noise* R: circus thing we're working on and a little intensive. I would love to get a small handful of people staying in the rooms and do that, like a pref- not like official- official like, class schedules and everything, I mean like let's do- let's do a- a- like a lock-in party for a week. L: Well, and I think- I think we will end up doing class schedules as well. R: Of course we will but that's not the part I'm excited about L: Yeah, okay. R: I'm part about- I'm interested in the messy part when we don't know what the hell we're doing but the place is in a good enough repair that we can and the situation in the world as such that we can, L: Yup R: and that excites me because I don't know that area L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I have always worked, I go to the circus center L: Yes R: I go home at the end of the day. I've always worked that I went to the theater and taught or performed and go home at the end of the day. I might spend- or I might go to school and stay with them for the day and then go home each day. I've never lived in it like that, with the exception of, you know, as a student there were L: Yeah R: a few times where I- I st- you know we went "Okay, good night everybody" I'd go upstairs and I'd go to sleep and I've never done that as- as the teacher. So I'm- I'm interested in seeing what that's like. I hope I don't hate it. L: If you do we will R: We've chosen poorly L: Yeah R: I don't think I will. I think what will happen, I think it is inevitable to know that I am human and I think you'll see the humanity whether you want- I'm- I'm a lumpy, hairy, gross human and people will- There'll be no ego in the game. I think one of the games of teacher that always bothers me and I'm- I really want to disassemble it and see if still is possible to be a teacher. When I come in, it's a status battle. I come in and I go "I am the great teacher." L: *Affirmative Noise* R: "You are the student. You'll- you'll grovel at my feet and you will listen to everything I say, and for that reason you will learn." and there's this- there's this and everybody goes "yes, yes, yes, sensei. Yes guru. Yes shifu." you know, "Yes teacher. Yes sir" and I- I don't like that game at all because it's not fun and I managed to disassemble it a few times. When I walk in in the room and go "Everybody this is a game we're playing" and I told them exactly that and then it was fun because all the time they would do exactly as I said and I would give them my best teacher and we'd all be winking at each other going "*snort* this is dumb" L: Yes R: and at the end of the day we would, you know, it would be very different and I'm- I'm very interested in knowing if you can dispense with that and just have a- L: That we an interesting exploration R: a conversation and I don't know if it would work. L: I don't know if you can do it. R: I don't know if it can. L: I don't know if it works. R: because I know the provocateur has to be there L: I feel like you have to play the game. I think that you can do the thing- I've seen you do R: you turn it off L: the thing where- where you acknowledge at beginning "This is the game we're playing" and everybody's winking while- while playing the game, but I think- I think that's part of R: and L: I think the game may be actually essential to R: the structure L: to the structure of the learning R: Yeah L: but I am game to test it R: and I- L: and play around with that. R: I think what it is, is that I'm so- I have so much privilege in my role, I have so much privilege in my identity that I think- it would be fun to explore- They always say that the best part about being, when you finally have a clown partner, is that you might not be the high status one. You might not be the one in charge and I've gotten it, ironically, with you- you are the first person who's ever had a strong personality across from me that could- that could drive L: Hmn R: and it's- it's great fun 'cause I get to play very dumb, very lost, very dottering L: This is true R: and so I think it's a bit like that, where it's like "Oh yeah, let's try that" and I- one of the- the mental images I have for this place is that there's little corners there's so many places you can be. You don't have to all be in the same room even, or in the same corner. Like, we're all- the two of us and- and our friends are jammed into one corner of the theater, there's a whole theater L: Yeah R: There could be something going on far enough away that it wouldn't be interrupting us, except for the noise. L: Yeah R: and I think there's great value and being able to walk around the hubbub of creativity. L: Yes, definitely. R: and so I think- I think I'm interested in feeling the theatrical equivalent of a maker space. L: Yes R: The theatrical equivalent of a hackerspace where people are tearing things apart to see what happens. So that- I think those are the things I'm most interested in. I think I've covered it. L: All right. R: Um, how 'bout you? "When- when- when it is finally done, when the- a great project is done, the building is prepared what are the" I'm not mocking the question, I'm mocking the- the realization that it- it'll never be done. "What are some of the projects that are planned that you- you're excited about?" L: So um, while I agree with you to a certain extent on the things will ever be done because a building is a constant thing that requires upkeep and is- will- will keep having more and more things that both need repair and that we just decide we want to change. R: Sure. L: Um, but I do think there will be a point where it's prepared. At least prepared enough to start hosting people. R: I hope so. L: Where that's- where that is safe and reasonable to do um, and I'm thinking about what projects we've planned as we- we do actually have- we have some notes because taking notes is important if you want to ever remember anything and it's so easy to get lost in what we're doing and completely lose track of what we want to do. Um, on some of the like intensives that we've talked about R: Oh and L: whether we can- whether we can have happen. We've talked about doing- doing masks for writers. Doing a trance mask workshop. R: Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that. L: For people who R: Who are not performers specifically, but they're L: Who are not performers but who- who- R: Authors L: Yeah for authors, for people who create using a different medium. R: I wanna- I want to do that for- for spiritual practitioners. L: That's also one of the R: people who are exploring because I think there is access to stuff L: and we were considering that possibly being an overlap on R: I think it is, I think it is. L: On those two. We've talked about- so, in projects I know that there are a couple of stilt costume ideas. R: *Gasps* L: Stilt walker costume ideas that we have R: I'm trou- L: that are- that are waiting until we have enough space. R: I'm trou- I'm in trouble, I forgot to- I forgot to mention my promise. L: You have made a promise to build a giant. R: I have prom- I promised- ah, I promised one of our clowns that I would build a giant L: and I have a baby elephant R: Speaking of things that are large in theaters L: costume idea that has been cooking since when we were back in the apartment in Texas. R: Oh it's been, we've been playing with that for years L: and we now have enough space R: that's a four legged, yeah, it's a four legged stilt creature. L: It's a four- four legged stilt creature. I'm very excited about it and I needed- frankly I needed the space both to build the thing because it will take a lot of time and space 'cause it's big and then two, to be able to store it. R: Right, is every time you have a giant idea you have to have a giant storage facility. L: Yes R: That's one we learned the hard way because we had a full size jack in the box and aerial rigging and all this other stuff crammed into a- we had an entire show crammed into storage unit for a while and it- you- you need space. L: Yeah R: We have it now and we haven't built big since, because we're not used to it. L: Well, and because we are still figuring out the space and R: Well yeah L: And once you know what- where everything they actually lives R: So you wanna- L: You can start doing stuff R: you want to make some big stuff L: I've got some big stuff I want to make R: Okay L: I'm trying to think of what else, 'cause there is definitely, we wanna start having some sort of a juggling jam,that we're involved with- with like the local community R: Yeah, we- we've talked a bit about uh- and that may not happen in the building, that may happen honestly out- either right outside or across the street L: Yeah R: Um, but the idea of just an open opportunity, there's a lot of kids in the area. L: Yeah, we'd love to be able to give R: Yeah just give L: a for people to has just come hang out. R: We could probably just go do that L: Um, I think one of the things that will- will benefit that is once we've got more of a stable schedule R: Oh sure. L: because our schedule so wonky right now, um, because we never know when we're going to be exhausted from- from doing some- R: from hauling sheetrock- sheetrock up flights of stairs yeah. Drywall. L: but yeah, I think- think those are some of the- some of the ones that I think of immediately. I didn't go back and check all of our notes R: Do L: but those are ones I know of R: Do you have a personal thing? Like a creative project you want work on? We should- we should finished with that L: Um, I mean I have a lot of clown exploration to be doing. R: Do you have an example? L: and I am very much looking forward to it. R: Do you have an example? L: Um, I don't other than just I want some time R: Behi- L: With my clown R: Behind the nose. L: Behind the nose. To, you know R: In the saddle, behind the nose. L: Yeah. R: Okay L: On the stage, doing- doin' stuff and R: Well, we've got- we- we conveniently have one. L: We do, so um, so that- I- I expect I'm going star- start getting into that before the point of "after the building is prepared" R: Well you see, and that's what it gets back to. L: But R: You've gotta- you gotta work while it's messy, otherwise you'll never clean it up L: But I do- I expect that there will be much more of that. I mean, I want to a show at some point. I just don't know what looks like yet. So R: Yeah, we've- we've had- we've had ideas and- and I think that's what a lot people are asking is- is shows. We have- I- I remember, I can think of probably three really solid ideas L: *Affirmative Noise* R: That we have, that we have notes on, that- that are structured. Enough to where if we'd said "That's the one" we can- we could build the shows out and we just- I- I feel like each one of them has something that is missing L: Yup R: and that's why it- they are- because they are things that we've been working on for years. They're in the- they're in the writing queue. You always have something half finished, you always have stuff that's ready. We've had- there are three shows I can think of that are concept that never gelled because they're missing a piece and when I find those pieces, they would become the focus in a heartbeat. L: and I think part of that, one of the things that's been true for how we do things, and we were talking about this the other day, not in here but somewhere else. R: Well, fill them in L: is that we've- when we've developed shows, we tend to develop shows for the theaters that we're putting them in. R: Well, conveniently we- we know this one pretty good now. L: and we- we've even really had a hard time being able to tour some show that we wanted to tour R: *Affirmative Noise* L: because we discovered that we had really built it for the theater R: *Affirmative Noise* L: That it originally was in and I think when we were doing a lot of coming up with ideas for the show- for a show, it was when we were still in the apartment and we didn't have- we didn't have a theater in mind. We didn't have a particular theater in mind R: Might I L: So we didn't have the constraints of a space R: Yeah L: to help us bounce ideas off of and now we do. So R: Yeah, I was gonna say "Might I suggest this one" because if you go "What we need to do is go find a theater" I'm going to haul off and L: No, no no I'm saying R: and scream L: I'm saying now we do and once the space is- once we've actually finished making- making some of the- at least the initial changes to this room R: *Affirmative Noise* L: because there's things about it right now that if we were bouncing off of R: would break L: One, would break, and two, won't be there by the time we R: Oh sure. L: invite an audience in. Like those R: Like those rails L: like those rails R: I like the idea that they're like training- that they're like, you know, the baby bed rails, or training wheels. I mean, that's what they are right now to me. L: Yeah like the- the- gutter rai- the gutter rails? R: Yeah you take them off when you're- when you're not going to fall out. Maybe we should never take them off. Then we can never fall. That doesn't sound fun. I have another question for you. L: Okay. R: It- it relates L: Yes? R: to the world of clowning, oddly enough. L: Wow. R: I know. "What elements would you say are essential to the art of clowning?" L: Ooo. R: "Essential". "Essential to the art of clowning?" L: My immediate first thought that comes to mind is curiosity R: Ooo. L: Um and I- R: I think that's L: I immediately start questioning myself as to whether that's something that's essential to my clowning? R: What is the difference? L: Or whether that is actually overarchingly true but I think it's overarchingly true. R: Just pile the dirt up and stand on it. It's okay. L: because it's a huge drive for my clown, is wanting to know what's going on. Wanting to explore objects. Wanting to see what they can do. Wanting to know what people are about. Um, So I think curiosity is an essential element of clown. Um, I think emotional connection R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Which is- which is a rephrasing from my thought of- my initial thought of joy, because frankly while I think many slash most clowns can and do experience joy um, it's much more that you have an emotional connection to whatever it is you're doing because it is just as much clown to see a clown sobbing as it is to see them happy to the point that they are bouncing off of the stage and so, emotional connection, curiosity, and I'd say honesty, 'cause it's that- that thing we were talking about, about when when something is truly yours is when you're doing it honestly. So honesty, and I think that's one of those things of- where we keep running into the "Clown is not therapy, but there are a therapeutic modes that it uses and you may want to get yourself figured out, sorted out, do whatever therapy you need" R: says a person who clowned for many years and then in the middle of that had to do some work on themselves L: Yeah, because R: same L: because the- because the pursuit of self honesty is going to- is gonna bring some stuff up while you work on it so, R: oh sure L: so, R: You think you can pack it all away and not use some piece of yourself but it invariably shows up. L: Yup, so I'd say, I'd say those. If I were to- if I were to distill it to like three things that come to mind R: Three things L: Those- those would be the like, elements that are really essential to clowning is self honesty/honesty, R: curiosity L: curiosity and emotional connection R: Okay L: Short and sweet and to the point. "So what do you think are the essential elements to the art of clowning" R: I feel like- I feel like doing that thing where the great clown wizards of time answer and to not unpack, but I will. Where they just turn and they look at you and they say L: "Think" R: Yeah pretty much, I tell you to think L: *laughs* R: and you figure it out on your own. No, I- I think the three things that I would say because I was- you know, sitting here, listing them off, vulnerability which is very similar to self honesty but it- it- to me vulnerability encapsulates being um, both able to affect and be affected. L: Yeah I was going to say, that's letting people in. R: That's letting people in L: Yeah R: and- and I think that's- that's- because you can be wrong, self honesty is important but in my mind if- if- if you're not letting things affect you, it doesn't matter if you're honest or not. We'll never- we'll never know because if you're honest about who you are and you're letting things in, we see it and if you're not honest with yourself you're letting things in and they're effect to you we'll see that too and that may be equally fascinating so L: Oh yeah, discovering that you've dishonest R: Yeah L: with yourself R: Yeah and getting- L: yeah R: getting to see that is a- is a whole journey. So I would say vulnerability's a huge one. Uh, being- and I'm- as a person who is day-to-day a pretty armoured up, unless I drop that and I have to go through an intentionality to do that L: *Affirmative Noise* R: sometimes because I'm- vulnerability's hard. Um, the second one's a word that's been coming to me a lot. Which is the word "whimsy" L: Hmn R: Um, it needs to be encouraged and it encapsulates the idea of play, well, curiosity is- is there. This is about playfulness. This is about doing things just because they're silly. Doing things just because they're play. There's no gain beyond the pleasure in the moment, and you can be ver- and I'd like to be pointing out, this doesn't have to be very happy thing. The distraction from misery may be to watch the leaves fall and that may be beautiful and the way they fall is this- there's a little whimsy to that. There's a little playfulness to that and to me that's- that's a big- I'm getting- I'm getting emotional now. L: You are, yeah. R: because the whimsy is the thing I think we're all bad at. We have- we- we get told "Be- be an adult", "grow up", "Get a job" and I'm not saying those things to you, friends. I'm saying these are things that have been said to me and they're said to all of us. We're told "Get real" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: "Get- get grounded in reality", and "blalala" and in the world is- the world is brutal right now. I feel like the one thing we need more than anything is a play- we all need recess. Adult recess, a chance to play. You know, we- we need a- we need playtime and I think about, like I used to host improv workshops where it was- really was just play time for adults L: *Affirmative Noise* R: it was going- it was go and make play together as a group L: Yes R: and we'd play children's games and a lot of clown is playing children's games as an adult very intensely. Almost competitively in some cases. L: Yup R: For the- but not for any outside reward. L: No, just because you play hard R: You play hard, yeah exactly. L: Yeah. R: So I feel like whimsy- but it's not about play, just about play. It's that overall idea, because there are times where- where play in that sense isn't possible but you can have that mindset, and to me the word for that mindset is "whimsy". L: Okay, yeah. Yeah, I hear that. R: So- So, vulnerability, whimsy, and failure. L: Oh yeah, that is an essential component. R: I- clowns are technicians of failure. They are masters of it. They are fools. They are folly to it. It is our greatest gift because on one side of it we fail and it's funny. We screw up and it's funny and on the other side of it we make a terrible mistake and we go "Oh, that's amazing and I have to go practice that for hours to become good at making that mistake" L: Yes R: and there are so many hours- you see somebody bumble props or things or little words in the clever ways that are funny the first time's an accident but when they can bring that to- to a show reliably, that's a lot of training L: yup and so R: failure is also the ability to be wrong. It's also the ability to accept that you may fail. Let's find out what happens when you do L: *Affirmative Noise* R: because to be open to failure is to be open to trying and not succeeding L: yes and R: and so these three- these are three big pillars to me. L: Yeah, no I think R: because- because without them and I'm not- I'm not discounting anything anybody else brings to it L: No, no, no. R: I just think that without- without those things, without the vulnerability to be affected by what's going on around you you're not fully present. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Without the playfulness you don't- you don't have a reason to do anything but endure it. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and without the failure well, it's not very human. It's too polished. L: Yeah. I think it's- it's funny to me, listening to the things that- that you've brought and the things that I've brought. R: They're very similar L: Is- is going "Oh, I think we were both driving at R: the same ideas L: the same ideas" because to me, like, the emotional connection R: is vulnerability. L: Is vulnerability and I think language being what it is, using the word vulnerability highlights different things than using emotional connection but they're both the same- they're both driving in the same- the same area and this, the whimsy concept- the whimsy concept, as you're saying it, I'm going "That moment where I said 'Curiosity seems like it's really important to my clown, and I don't know if it's important to every clown, but it's really important for my clown' it's because that's the form R: that's the L: whimsy takes R: for the L: for my clown' R: for that clown yeah, and I think the other thing is this, is that I have a bigger thesaurus than you do because I'm older. L: *Laughs* R: and so I know more big words. I- no. The truth is that I've gone- I've- I've gone through the process both myself and also have helped a lot of people through the process and I've looked for- there are meta ideas L: yeah, yeah. R: They're all- we both landed on the same things but there's these- there's these great sort of meta ideas. These sort of big, big, big ideas and the biggest thing in the room like the elephant, um, is this- is this notion that we're talking about connectivity, a childlike wonder you know, L: A childlike wonder we've talked about before. R: Yeah, we're talking about the same thing and- and having some material, which is failure. It's- how- how I find it is failure, how other people find it L: *Affirmative Noise* R: is skill. I don't know, but it's the same- it's the same ideas and in those areas, find the words- maybe this is the exercise L: *Affirmative Noise* R: for our friends to consider. Is to find those- the words that describe those things, but I also suggest it might be better to realize them than to find them because finding them means we're going to pick them. Realize them means you've noticed them. L: yes R: and that's another example L: those are different things. R: I like- I like the use of the word "Well, I realized that this is true" how did I realize that? By- by saying them and I want to be clear on this, I have held every one of the opinions we've just discussed incorrectly at some point L: *laughs* and then thus realized that getting stuff wrong is important R: and- and- in the end L: and failure is important yeah. R: that's why- that's why failure makes my top- my essential list, because otherwise I never woulda got here. L: Yup R: and there is my answer. L: Alright. Well then I think we have- is this our last question? R: Is it? L: I think it's our last question. R: It's whipped by today. L: It has. R: Okay. L: Okay. So, our last question but it is a triple barreled one. R: That sounds- okay- do with do you mean like some sort of weapon with three barrels? Do you mean like three barrels that each one has it's own unique monkey? I like that. L: I like that idea. R: Let's go with that one. L: Let's go with that. R: Okay, cool. L: Um, R: Alright L: and this- this- this was- this came to us with the statement "Triple barreled question for the podcast: What music do you listen to?" R: *Acknowledgement Noise* L: "Do you find music useful to work out to?" R: *Curious Noise* L: "and what kinds of music do you choose for performances?" R: Woah. I- L: Should we- should we go back and forth on each one of those? R: Yeah, I think we need to. L: I think before- before trying to like get all of it from one of us and then all of it from the other. R: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay so- so L: Music we listen to. R: We listen- we listen to everything around here, because one of the thing and I- I hate that when people say "Oh, I listen to everything" um, I purposefully go out of my way, one of the things where I've actively fought my sort of sense of aging curmudgeon, is to constantly seek out new music because I am deeply affected by music L: Yes R: So one day- um, you know, one day I'm listening to, you know, Caribbean jazz, another day I'm listening to like, vi-experimental viking metal and then we will, you know, then we're listening to show tunes because Liam needed to listen to show tunes. L: I do like show tunes R: Um L: quite a bit. R: Yeah, I mean I feel like I'm- my- my music collection may- may be the proof that the my mind is a big scattered mess because I- it's everything. I will say do gravitate towards a lot of jazz, a lot of- a lot of old L: Jazz fills this space really well R: and I think so- and I don't think it used to be that way, but I think this space really calls for it. Um, I really- I really love some internet radio like soma.fm stuff. I'm going to shout them out because they have such great- L: *Affirmative Noise* R: they've such great streaming radio stations that we- we will just put one of those on when we can't figure out what to play. L: Yeah R: We also have an- an obscenely large music collection of our own that we've collected that- that all of us have collected over years L: Yeah R: we put in one bucket and boy do I recommend that because then you can- you can grab everybody's music. Um, related to this I just was asked ah- I'll shout out another radio friend, A love a brother radio, Brother Soul, Hello Brother Soul, who's a good friend, does a- an internet radio show and asked me to put together- he does this thing called a pick and mix. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and what it is, is he says "Give me, you know, thirty five or forty songs. It's a virtual crate, of- like records, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I'm going to- I'm going to do a dj mix of that" and I said "I want to go to there" and I specifically, because he- he really knows me as the sort of professional circus me L: yes R: I said "Okay, I'm gonna look- I'm going to speak from that voice, as opposed to like, well, you know, what I listen to when I'm in the house quiet and sad" and I'm going to go through a lot of stuff and have a lot of- and it was a big, memory lane, sort of nostalgic trip L: *Affirmative Noise* R: That go- that went all the way back to the beginning and I ended up making liner notes for for it. I- I ended up writing up like "Why is each one of these songs here?" and what the memory attached to it is. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I have that online and I'll link to it in the show notes but ah- L: Fantastic R: So there- there is actually a sampling and apparently that is on replay periodically on love a brother radio now so you can go and listen to an example of the kind of nonsense I listen to. Um, some of it is obscure. L: I am in the middle of picking a pick'n'mix that he's also said that he'll- that he'll spin. R: Okay good. L: Um, but R: clowns and DJs. L: I have not yet finished that, um R: but what do you- "What do you like to listen to?" that was the question. L: but I- so I have noticed that one of the things I- that I tend to do is let other people pick the music around me R: and then say "No" a little bit L: and say "No" every once in a while R: Yeah L: um, but left my own devices I am still stuck in the early aughts R: *laughs* a lot of Panic L: yeah R: Panic at the Disco yeah L: I- I- I R: you are terrible L: listen to a lot of angry boy music from- and- and just popular stuff. Like I- it's not niche. It's just popular R: Radio L: angry boy music. R: What was on the radio yeah L: From the early aught and like the twenty tens. Um. R: This is the way that you are the most average dude I know. I want to be clear on this, like you are a fascinating vibrant person, but your music taste typically run somewhere between musical theater and boy band. L: Yeah, yeah and then- there's- there's boy band stuff, and there's music the- there's a lot of musical theater because I really like musical theater. R: You do a bit of it, so that makes sense. L: *Affirmative Noise* um, and- and that's- that's a lot of it. R: There's one other thing that I've noticed we tend to do is, if we're- a lot of time's we're writing or working on things that require active brain and that pushes us- L: We don't- we don't up with lyrical content. R: There's a lot of- L: Yeah R: a lot of time in the around- I guess the "Around the building" music is not lyrical content L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Conversely, if I'm- if I am working on a physical thing like a wall? It's gonna be pounding rock and crazy ballads and it's gonna be loud. L: Yeah, so I mean we- we listen to a- a fair range of stuff. I was actually surprised at how- how much of a range I found pull- I found myself pulling into that pick'n'mix but a lot of it's pop uh, but I adore the fact that we have so much R: it changes L: jazz and jazz from different cultures and R: that's a- that's a big thing. L: music from- from a different cultural backgrounds is super awesome to me. It's not something I had quite as much of growing up so I don't have as much of it in my- in my head- Oh, and a lot of music from the seventies. R: You do listen to a lot of L: I listen to a lot of stuff from the seventies because frankly, my mom listened to a lot of music from the seventies cause that was like her jam and I was like "This stuff's good" so, um, that's a lot of what I listen to. R: Well, and the second part of this is working out, which is substantially different than your day-to-day music. L: Yes and do- so it's a question of "Do we find music useful to work out to" R: Yeah L: one hundred percent yes. R: Oh yeah. If- You have to fill the- the sort of dead air in a room. I feel like that's a- there's something- I can sit quietly. Like, I can sit in a room with no music and that's no problem L: Yeah R: but if I'm- if I'm supposed to be doing something and there's nothing to move to? A lot of times I'll just shut down. L: Yeah I- it helps R: So I- I will- a lot of times it's silly club music. There's a lot- there's a lot of like really silly club music that plays here L: Yes R: Umm, and I'm- I'm- Some of it is- some of it I'm loath to- I'm loath to shout out because is not necessarily interesting. We could shout out "Best of Bootie" the remix contest. L: Yes, we are a lot of Bootie. R: A lot *laughs* That was a good sentence, well done. Yeah, it's a remix contest and we listen to a lot of that around here um, and people will occasionally just like recommend something and we'll- we'll catch it and if it catches us it ends up in the rotation L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I know, uh, what- what have we've been listening to lately? Spiedkiks? L: Yep, a fair amount of them. R: a fair amount of them. Um, there was something else just recently we discovered that was like "ah, that was really good" and I'm trying to remember what it was. It is gone because my brain is bad at holding onto this stuff L: It's okay R: but the idea- the idea is the workout music has a lot more energy, usually has some lyrical content L: yep R: Um, L: I've actually having a struggle. So we- So one of the things that we've also been doing is- is the video chats during- during the gym R: We do like one a week now. L: We're- we're- yeah. We've- we've basically come to doing it about once a week and it varies on which day but we have to turn the music way down so that we're not- um, so that it can be muxed out by the- by the video call software so that were not just playing over- but so our music isn't just playing over anything- people wanting to talk and stuff, and one of the things that I've been discovering is that I've been doing a lot of body movement exploration R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Just like, "How can I move my body?" and "Does it go this direction?", "Does that go that direction?", "Can I lead with a particular body part?" and I need music R: To do that? L: To do that. Like, I- I require music to lead me R: to- to eccentric movement? L: To eccentric music- movement. I think I could take those movements once I've done them. R: Yeah L: and I can do some of them R: I've seen you L: without the music that- that drove them initially, but if I want to really explore? R: *Understanding Noise* L: I need music and that bubble where I'm not really talking to people. So, like, it's been really helpful to have a couple of nights a week that I'm not chatting with friends. I love chatting with friends R: You're doing it right now. L: While working- but I love chatting with friends R: I know I'm here but L: all the time and in these- in this setting I love it and I love doing it while I'm working out, like that's actually a lot of fun for me but it was really interesting to discover that there's some stuff that I want to do R: you can't L: That I absolutely cannot do while chatting with people and that I need music instead to be able to do. R: Well, it's good to know. I think- I think the workout music it's- it's, what I will say is that it's- it's not- it's not gym bro music but there's definitely more energy in the music and then what I love is that uh, Marie will actually bring a lot of like jazz and dance music and she brings L: She knows where the high energy jazz is R: yeah and so L: She'll bring that in. R: She'll bring that in during workouts and it's great fun and we- we trade off who's- who's DJing for the night L: *Affirmative Noise* R: because we really want different energy and like, when I- when I- when I spin stuff it probably sounds like a- like a club in here and when she spins stuff it sounds like a nightclub in here. L: Yup R: And that's- and that's good. I think that's good for workouts. L: I don't spin in here. R: You could. L: I could. I just don't. R: Yeah L: Uh R: and then the third one is the- I think these chewiest category which is music for performance L: Yeah, "What kind of music do you choose for performances?" R: I have a- I have a- a two pronged problem here L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So I will- I will bring out my- my- my- my fork and- and stab at it L: Okay R: My- my- my first problem is, after years of doing projects where we were putting everything into the creative commons or we were dealing with shows with licensing complications or I watched people not do that right, I am an enormous advocate of using either original music or unencumbered by copyrights music or music that you have licensed directly from the artist. I'm a big fan of this and to the point where I try to feed my head that kind of music as often as possible to try to find that track I find exciting. So, one of the things that I didn't mention in the "What am I listening to all the time?" is that a lot of times I am also seeking out like, no, I'm not listening to whatever's in pop culture, mainstream. I'm looking for creative commons artists who are doing interesting stuff that they are giving away or are very open, like, if one of their songs grabs me I'm familiar enough with their work and with them to reach out and say "Hey, I want to do something with this" L: and you can work that out with them R: and that's worked- L: Yeah R: it's worked really well for us and in fact, you know, our podcast theme is one of those things that I'm very proud of, the fact that an artist, you know, put that under the same license as the podcast so we could share it L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I am an enormous believer in this, both ideologically and because I have suffered the aches and pains of so many times where people hand waved at copyright and then they- it came to crunch us, and so now, I- whenever I'm building an act if it- if it doesn't have original music or licensing locked down? I'm- I'm just not gonna- I'm not gonna use any- any random music. L: It's- it's not worth the- it's not worth R: just L: the likelihood that it'll just be ripped back out from under you. R: Right and one of the things that that does though, is that you don't have control what your heart loves and good music may be very mainstream-y. You may- L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You may love a boy band song and it may be the- the right thing L: yeah R: for your- your moment. So, I've been lucky a few times where I've been able to use music that was either completely unencumbered or was an old standard in the public domain or I was part of a project which allowed me to use it or it was a friend's song, which I- was my favorite thing, is where I've gotten to perform to a friend's music. L: Oh yeah R: and because of that, I really am looking- When I'm looking as a performer, I am constantly seeking music in that vein and in fact when I'm teaching workshops and we do movement sections I have a separate collection of music that is all, I am aware of with the licenses of these things are, they're all open licenses. I have notes on all of them, but I'll shuffle that stuff and that way if somebody goes "Ahh, that grabs me" I go "Good, here's the information you need. It's yours now to create with" L: Yeah, go play R: Go play, and I think that's one of the things that I get most excited about is when you're free to use things. I believe that culture should be remixed. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I think- I think copyright is a is a silly broken system, personally, but I also am aware that if I want to create something I can- I can share- I can use L: and not have to be R: Not be screwing someone. L: Not- not- not either be screwing somebody else over, or put a target on your back for R: and I've, like I said, I've experienced- L: a major organization to come and screw you over. R: and I've experienced both and so now I'm very staunchly a proponent of building things, listen to music that's in the creative commons and if you find yourself moving to it, if- listen to stuff that in the public domain, listen to the stuff that's open to be used, that someone wants you to use, because I'll tell you, I have gone to- I have, you know, people I know who have put their work under those kind of licenses and they are excited for me that I've used them L: *Affirmative Noise* R: They're actually, they're like "You're using that? That's amazing" and that- that's what I want to hear because then I don't feel like I'm getting away with it, because then it always feels dirty. The other thing I'll say is this, if you have your- your buddy's song and you like moving to it? You create a performance to your buddy's song instead of something you heard off the radio? No one else is using that. L: Yeah R: it- to your audience it becomes your anthem. I've watched a lot of people perform to popular songs and what we go "Oh, that's a beautiful thing to do to that song we've all heard" but then you see somebody come out and do something to a song that no one's heard, even when it's been something that was under really, you know, typical copyright L: *Affirmative Noise* R: If it's- if it's obscure and weird enough, it becomes yours L: yeah R: Um, L: So you better darn well have permission to use it R: Right and I've seen L: Otherwise you will have this thing that people start thinking of as yours and then you can't use it anymore. R: Right, and you don't want that L: Don't set yourself up R: and I've L: don't set yourself up for that. R: I've had to rebuild acts L: Don't do that R: with different music, like I built music L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and then it was "Oh, you're going to re-choreograph the song, you know, ah, re-choreograph this act to it- to different music" and I'm like "Oh, that's exhausting" ah, and I've had to do it and- and it's a real chore because a lot of times you find organic beautiful movement from music L: yeah R: and then you can't transpose that to another song. It doesn't exist in that other song. So I've gotten, I want to be clear, I've gotten into roundtable arguments with other performers about those who disagree with me. This is a thing that I- it's a hill I'm strongly a proponent of being on. I don't- I don't think it's the only way to work but I do think it's- it's a good way to work for me and it makes me feel more free to create because I don't feel like I'm taking from anyone because people are giving me things and, let me be clear on this, none of what I just said involved not paying people. L: Yeah R: I want to be one hundred percent clear, that all of that comes with, if they're royalties being made? Pay people. L: Yeah and if- and if their- if it is unencumbered music, if it's something people gave out there? R: Hit the tip jar L: Hit the tip jar R: and I, I mean L: like if you have to wait until you make some money off of it R: Right L: Sure R: And I don't L: Wait till you do and then R: I don't want slam- L: Hit the tip jar R: You know it's not a thing I like to focus on. We're talking about the work L: *Affirmative Noise* R: it's not a part of the work I like to focus on but ultimately legal things exist, money exists, we have to deal with it. Finding ways to navigate that where what you're ultimately doing is promoting people and things you like L: yeah R: Sounds you like and there's so much music that's being freely given. I- Every performer I meet, this is- this is a talk I give them, I say consider using this music because there are so many reasons, great reasons not to go for "Oh, this song is popular". One of the- one of the best reasons is it's a popular song. What happens when it's not popular? What happens if the- and I've seen this happen to a performer I know,they had a tremendous act to a popular song L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and then that artist, who they didn't know, they were just using their music fell under some scrutiny for something they did. L: Oh no. R: And yeah, at that point you're now associated with that because you're performing to it. You're playing it in the room. Don't bring it into the room. Instead, bring- bring your friends L: Yeah. R: One of the- one of the great things that I'm so lucky to have done is I've worked with a lot of musicians and most of them, you know, I could if I- if I had- and I have done this, and if I had a moment where I was like "Oh, You know what? This- this song that this friend of mine did is really good. I wonder if I can use" they be like "Go" and I- and I know that's true because we have done that a few times L: Yeah R: and I got "Oh, this is- thank you so much for- for letting me use your music." So, L: So also reach out to R: yeah L: artists that you know and ask. Because R: Even- even L: everybody does put it out into the public domain and R: even if L: "all rights reserved" includes the right to say "That person can use it" R: Correct L: So R: and this feels ugly but I'll give a piece of advice to pr- to performers and professionals, when you get that permission, get it in writing. Not because I think your friend's gonna go back on you but because moving forward as something grows. L: Oh yeah R: You're gonna- you're gonna- you're going to have to interface with something larger than you and that thing's gonna want more legal paper than you have. L: Yes, um, and I want to- I wanna stop for a second and- and back up and point out that we have not always played by these rules. R: No. No this is something I evolved to over a decade of- of continually working towards it and it's because every- every show had a unique headache related to licensing and one day I went "What if we built a show without that?" and then we did and it was like L: yeah R: headache free L: and so I mean R: that was a whole to do list the that evaporated L: we're still- we're still at the place of having to, like some of our go-to stuff, still- basically everything that I've built. R: Oh yeah it's L: is on- has some sort of music that has R: Send Liam music L: copyright problems, R: he can create theater to. L: I mean, I R: send him your favorite L: 'cause R: creative commons L: please do R: open licensed boy band nonsense. L: because I- I mean I really started as a performer as somebody who was performing cover music um, and there's a real disconnect between what is legally true in the United States with regard to how copyright works and how people behave like it works R: right and- and L: I'm not saying R: study your- study your copyright kids. L: I'm not saying that there is- I don't think it's wrong to be going and doing covers of songs R: No L: and I don't want to put on the record anything that indicates that I- that I have a problem with that. I started by doing cover music and I think it's a wonderful learning process and I think it's something that could use more defense than it has R: On- on a related note L: *Affirmative Noise* R: that and I think my final thought on all of this, if you possibly get the opportunity and I must be clear, I am uniquely spoiled in a lifetime of being sur- being surrounded by talented people, performing to live accompaniment has been one of the greatest joys of my performing career. Getting to perform to a musician on stage who is accompanying me, not just playing their song, but is with me has been L: That's a real joy R: It is the best part my job and at that- at that point I'll say find a song you can do and do that for life because it's- it is such a beautiful- it's such a beautiful moment when you- when you move and you move at a natural speed and the music moves with you L: *Affirmative Noise* R: or if you have a little pause and the music slows down with you and the emotion's with you it's a really beautiful dance and I've been I've been lucky enough to dance that dance more than a few times and it's- it's one of the great feelings and additionally it's in the room. It's live. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It's not a canned track, it's not playing out of a speaker. There is another human there adding their energy to your performance. It becomes something really magical. So the final thought I have is and if at all possible, even if it is nothing more- and we did an incredible act that you did nothing more than play repeating chords on a guitar L: Yeah, just noodling on the guitar. R: Noodling on a gui- one of the most beautiful acts, we- it was hilarious and it was kind of beautiful. It was just you playing chords gently in the background and that was all it needed to bed it so it wasn't happening in silence. L: Yeah R: So sometimes it can be way si- and this is the thing, it can be way simpler because a lot of m- the most difficult thing in choosing music for performance is finding music that has room for the performer. If you have a song with all of it and its lyrics and everything's happening L: Then- then you're tied to it. R: Well more than that L: The only story you can tell is R: Where do you- where do you go? L: that R: Where do you go? When you have a piece that's a little more sparse there's room for your movement L: yeah R: So there you go, the other thing, I have a piece of advice from an old- from an old clown teacher of mine who said "When you think you know your act and you think it's good and you think you've got your music, and you think you've got it all sorted out, take the music out and perform it and see if it still works. See what's going on with your timing. Make sure that you're not just dancing along to a song" That's a clown teacher note I got once and I was like "That's really L: That's a really good R: It's a really good note and one of the most awful things is at the time I was developing an act that absolutely has that problem L: yeah R: It is one of the best acts I do and I did not end up changing it. Other acts I did fix that problem but it was- it was a tough note to get because I knew it was right but I knew the act I was doing was good. So that's a- that's a toughie and you gotta decide how you feel about that. L: But yeah, So- so that's- R: that's that L: the music we choose for performances. R: Music we choose for performances, around the house whatever we need depending on what we're doing, and in the gym we like to rock out a little bit. L: A little bit, yeah R: Or dance. We need- we need to move. L: A lot of dancing. R: A lot of dance. We need to move. L: So dance, if you want to. R: Or le- or not, we won't leave you behind we'll- L: Yeah R: We'll bring you along L: That's it. That's all we've got. R: I mean, if you had indicated that I could have done the- I had a thing but I wasn't sure if we had another question. I was all- L: I told you this was the last question. R: I lost that part- okay. 'cause here's the thing. L: I did that before we got to the- R: Dance if you want to, leave your friend behind, but we won't. We'll be with you, right here on L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: How good is that? L: It's beautiful. R: If we had done that L: I was hoping you were going to go there R: people would have been like "Wow, these people are really talented and I love the way they do that!" But we blew- you blew it, I blew it, we blew it. L: We did R: We failed L: because we're clowns R: and it's important. I enjoyed this time L: So did I. We hope you did too. R: Yeah, we'll- we'll see you next time, and in the meantime take a deep breath. Listen to some music, try to find some whimsy and we'll talk to you next time. *noises of standing up* R: It was at this point I realized I gotta walk all the way to the door. *walking noises* L: The door is a while away. R: It's- It's all the way, hang on, it's all the way over here. I've got the theme song hand on, I promised. Really good theme song. *a dog barks in the distance* R: That's not it. *door opens*