----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 24 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2025-11-18 ----------------------------------- *door shuts* Russ: Liam! Liam: 'ello R: You're here L: I'm here R: I've been waiting for you. L: Wond- R: We've been waiting for you. L: I'm here. R: I'm so glad. L: It's a long walk isn't it? R: You never get to take it. L: Not a short walk R: I know, we're in the theater. So it's all this way, to come all the way over here, to sit down at a table to prevent- pretend- prevent? pretend- To prevent the reality that it is not a very small space, so we can pretend that it is a very small space. I made it work. L: Alright I think I might have gotten a little lost there. R: You want to go again? Are we- L: No, no no, R: You're comfortable? L: I'm here, I'm here. R: You're lost. Okay, so you came through the door. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You walked over here, where we prevented reality by pretending this is a very small space. Perhaps a small storage area where one might sit and discuss things, so we could be L: Two Clowns in a Closet R: You got the thing. You got to do the door and L: and the button! R: I know! L: Woo! R: Well it's an important day, because I took so- I took a look and the last time you and I sat down together was March. L: Wow R: Yeah L: That was too long ago. R: To our friends you- you got that episode in April-ish L: In April I think. R: In early April, and there was big news there and I think- I think it would be smart to start with an update. L: Oh yes, April. R: April L: When I had- when I had surgery. R: You had surgery, which was a very big deal. L: It was a very big deal. Everything went about as well as it possibly could R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and I am healed up and recovered and getting back into acro, back acclimatised to acrobatics and stuff. So I mean tha- eh- everything is good. Everything is wonderful. R: I think- I think the thing that was so interesting- So yes, we have a couple of very rough weeks and then I spent L: oh yeah R: and I spent a little bit of time with a full-time job of being your weird patient who- who- you know patient nurse who comes running in at odd hours and hands you sandwiches. I did that and I love doing it. What I thought was interesting was how you- you recovered quote unquote, very quickly. There was a time when your energy was up and down. There was a time where this was going on but you were back doing P.T. about the time you could, you know, wander around. You'd do a little bit of it and fall on the floor and L: But very carefully, I couldn't actually fall on the floor R: Right, right. L: Because that was a mess. R: Right, but then- where I was thinking was, we've just now months and months and months later, we've just started working towards acrobatics again. L: And part of that is because I managed to injure my shoulder R: *Pondering Noise* L: Which wasn't R: Which I think was related L: I don't know that it was related. I think I just pushed really hard and was doing both handstands and working on stuff for the building that overused my shoulder at the end of the day. R: That's- that's a fair point. The- the- the summary is, and I am- I'm excited to get to- to point out, you're well. L: Yes R: You're here. You ambled all this way in one piece, and you're- we're- you and I are getting back into doing some acrobatics now which is fun L: *Affirmative Noise* R: because I've been- I've been working- I've been training while taking care of you and doing building stuff and everythi- and- and- art stuff which we can talk about. I've been throwing myself the wall, literally, doing handstands and juggling and just a lot of solo work which I love but it's kind of boring. So I'm glad you're back. L: Yeah it's nice to- it's nice to be back and doing things,- R: I'm saying that part. L: Yeah. R: What I didn't expect, because I didn't think about it. I made a commitment where I wanted to be strong enough so when you were ready to work you didn't have to wait for me. Like I- I didn't need to recondition. What I- L: You succeeded *laughs* R: Yeah, I think I may have gotten stronger. What- What I- What I thought was so interesting that we immediately discovered was it wasn't just that your strength had to return. L: Oh no, it's- uhhh. R: I put my feet on your body in weird ways and now you don't like it. L: It's not R: You're not conditioned for it. L: It's not- it's not the not liking it. It's that, um- it's putting a lot of weight into small- into small area, which means there's a lot of pressure and- physically, not like emotional pressure, it's physically a lot of pressure R: I don't know, it can be. L: And the body R: When you're up there screaming "Don't drop me" L: the- the body adjusts to that. It also apparently unadjusts to that. So yeah- my- the level to which my body can handle that much pressure R: You're like a tender baby now. L: It's- it's really frustrating. R: I know. And the thing- the thing that's funny is, I say this, and you've gotten- I mean you've also gotten very s- you've been working and getting stronger. L: Yeah, yeah I jumped straight into P.T. um- because I found a P.T. program that I could use, so I started doing some of those very, very, very gentle, very, very small range of motion explorations and exercises- Heck, I started doing them before I got off the heavy meds and then I very quickly realised that it was a lot harder after you got off the heavy meds. Um- *laughs* R: I'm not going to mock the fact that you were on pain management and- and trying to work out. I've done similarly silly things. L: and R: Don't do this, friends. L: No R: Don't do this. L: I mean, the small- the small movement- what I was doing was actually appropriate for the- for the space but um- but yeah, by the time I hit- for that- for that surgery, recommended the average for when they allow you to like quote unquote "go back to working out" is six weeks and at six weeks, it was actually kind of amazing, because week five I felt sad and tired and still pretty awful. Week six it was like "I have energy. I can work out" and like- for like five minutes and then I have no more energy again R: Right L: But the difference was huge. So it makes a lot of sense that that's where it was, but so I jumped straight into what I could do which was slow ramp up of- of getting back into things. R: During the time I was- I was helping you recover, and I don't want to speak to your story too much but there was something I kind of made a mental note I wanted to mention to our friends. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I have had the weird life of having taken care of a lot of people who have been through surgery L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I have yet to have encountered a person who- and this is specifically about anaesthesia L: *Affirmative Noise* R: who didn't, about two weeks after they washed out of that, where it washed out of their system and they had a massive emotional traumatic response. L: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Definitely happened. R: And you- and you're definitely had it and we talked about it- because we talked about it before it happened L: And I'm glad you brought it up, because that is something that a lot of people don't talk about. R: Well, that's what I was going to say. I have- I have helped multiple people through surgical recovery and the thing that I thought was most surprising is never once did a medical professional comment on this. L: No, no. R: And I also knew that for a lot of people they're, you know, recovery is hard L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and surgery is hard and all of these things are so hard that it's just one more thing in the ball of things but- but sitting- you end up in a kind of objective seat, because you're sitting back, you're watching a person, you're letting them sleep and you're sort of on standby, waiting to see what they need next, trying to get ahead of that and eventually you sort of, you- you do that enough times and you sort of develop a library of "Yep, this is gonna happen" and sure enough it did, and I wanted to- and I know we're talking about a lot of medical stuff but I will L: We will- we will content warning R: We will content warning the heck out of the beginning of this, I wanted to be clear to make a mention that this is a real thing that I- I haven't encountered anyone who hasn't experienced some amount of it. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It may be mild. It may be ver- I've seen people have very big responses to small- and it's not pain management. It's not like, withdrawal symptoms, and it's not pain and it's not recovery is hard. Which, all of these things are true. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It is specifically, anaesthesia seems to have some effect that when it finally washes out of the system -and I want to be clear, I am not a doctor. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a medical professional. I am an idiot who cares about people. L: *laughs* R: and helps take care of them when they're not feeling good because I happen to be nearby. L: Yeah R: That's- that's the extent of my expertise but I have seen this and I wanted to comment that if you find yourself going through any kind of procedure, make a note that this is going to happen. Tell your carer that this might happen L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I- I found that knowing that helped you. L: Yeah. I also did get sim- a similar note from several friends who have been through gender affirming surgeries R: *Contemplative Noise* L: because it's one thing to have that- because it's very- like, it's very upsetting. You just have, like, this period of time where you're very upset and when- I think when that happens in the middle of something that's um- that's a surgical procedure where it's- I'm trying to think of how to phrase this. When it's something that is just avoiding something bad R: Yeah L: When it's one of those situations of you have to go have surgery to avoid other physical problem. Having those negative feelings all tangled up in that makes sense and there's like this logic to it R: Yeah L: and you can justify it, but when you're having a gender affirming surgery, you're so prepped to have really positive emotions about the results- R: Right L: That when you hit that couple of weeks in, just so much upset-ness, it's really easy to turn that against yourself and to turn that against the joy that you may- may experience, because sometimes people don't. To be perfectly honest, recovery is rough. Sometimes you don't start to feel like you've gotten to where you want to go until you're well out of the recovery period. I know there's lots of- I've heard lots of stories of people like having a really rough time. Um- and I think of this- I think that that adds to it and I know a lot of people who- who warned me ahead of times "Look, don't make any judgment calls. Don't make any life decisions. Don't make, like-" R: Yeah. L: Don't put yourself in a place where you're actually making decisions during that period of time. Especially, you know, when talking about gender affirming surgeries, especially about your gender or about how your gender relates to what has happened. R: Sure. L: because it all needs to settle first and I think I was lucky in that R: you had a pretty good run. L: I had a really good run. I had- I had the like, instantly happy with the results. Like happy with the results before I saw the results level of excited. R: You were cracking jokes about it before you sobered up from the meds. L: Yeah R: I was- I was there. L: It's- So- so I got really lucky but two weeks in, R: *whispered* Bam L: like clockwork, there it was and you were there to remind me that this was expected, I had- I had been warned about it and that really, really helped keep it from like, just tanking me emotionally. Which I really appreciated. R: And I'm- and I'm glad we have the notes. So I wanted to share that. That was the one thing that I could bring to this conversation. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Is if- if you're interacting as a career or you're going through this experience, there's a thing that is outside all of the other emotions that seems to genuinely be a biological response. L: Yeah R: and keep that in mind, so there's- there's you know, there's a little bit of of balance L: *Affirmative Noise* R: yeah, intellectually against what is going to be just a waterfall of emotion L: Yeah R: I did want to ask one thing before we moved on. L: Yes R: Which is, that if, you know, you got three pieces of advice for recovering from anything, any kind of procedure. Do you have do you have any advice? L: Three pieces of advice. Um- I don't know if I have advice that can be used generally for any type of procedure but I can talk to R: Sure L: getting top surgery, which is what I got. One, there's plenty of advice out there about working on like developing your pectorals so that theoretically the doctor can have an easier line to follow R: *Affirmative Noise* L: I'm not saying that that's garbage. I don't know that's it's good advice but what I'll say is much, much more important is practicing getting up off of the floor, or getting up off of chairs, or getting up off of a bed without using your hands R: because you won't be able to? L: Because you can't after- R: *laughs* L: You can't directly after and if it's- like, I'm really lucky. R: You developed that, I remember the day you realised you could do that. L: Yeah, just- just get up off of the floor without without the use of my hands. R: And it was years ago. L: It was years ago R: It had nothing to do with any of this. L: So I was already well trained on this, but the level to which I needed every, every bit of that training was a lot and I was like "Why is nobody telling people that- that that's the thing they need. Like, forget- forget about doing pushups. Don't do push ups. Do just- figuring out.- R: Do squats. L: Do squats, figure out how to get yourself off of the floor. R: That's one. L: Now I know that I went in with an extreme amount of privilege. On the fact that I live a lifestyle with support that allowed me to actually like, really take a lot of time off. R: Yeah L: Where I didn't have to do anything. R: We put all of our projects on hold so we could take care of you L: but I will say, I could tell how big of an impact that made on how well I recovered. How fast I recovered. Ah- so if that's at all possible for you. If you can set yourself up to have support to do the thing- to do so much more than you think you're- like, you- you- the level to which you will not be able to do things, or you can do things but it's going to be so- feel so risky, and feel like it takes so much more of your energy, is just much more extreme than you might expect and if you can set things up so that somebody can just baby you, while you're in recovery and I mean for the first month, for the first month and a half, if you can set yourself up so that you have the supports, do it. If you can't? I know plenty of people who have managed to get through this process without that level of support, but if you can, absolutely take advantage of- of any level of support anybody's willing to- to help you with. R: Accept help is almost universally good advice. L: Um R: And a final thought? L: Final thought. Um- once again this is a- if you can stay away from the other things you- you would ordinarily have to do, sleep. Sleep as much as you can. Side- side- side note, I really felt like getting a wedge pillow was worth it for me and I really resist- I was really resistant on getting a wedge pillow because I don't like getting single use objects that I have no purpose for later. Was absolutely worth it for this one. R: Well, there you go, and it help- it did help you get up and down. L: Yeah. R: It made your- It made your life easer. L: Yeah. R: I think the thing that brings us back to, you know, the conversations more generally what we talk about here, I wanted to make time for this, L: Yeah R: but the thing that I thought was great was we gave you all of the support and we gave you the time, because we- we spent a couple of months leading up to that time L: Prepping. R: Prepping, wrapping up projects that we had, you know, we had ripped out wiring in the building and we're like "We have to get to a stopping point" we- we- we were doing things here and then that became our focus for awhile L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but the minute you were back on your feet for more than- because you would get up and you'd walk for five minutes and you'd fall over again L: *Laughs* R: and we'd have to, like, set you- prop you up on the couch and let you sleep and then you'd get up and you'd go. You were like a toddler for a little while. L: Yeah R: But after that, you have been like, whatever the positive- the building, the making stuff version of a wrecking ball is, because you've been back to that full tilt, so much in just the last month or two has happened. L: Oh yeah. R: because we kind of hit a- L: We've been doing a lot for the past- for the past few months R: Yeah because we had- I kinda remember, we were getting back up to speed, you were getting back to doing things and we had a dumpster come through here. That- L: We ordered a dumpster. R: We ordered a dumpster, L: Yeah R: It showed up unexpectedly- I say come through here because it showed up early, and we had to drop everything, but that meant that the year and a half of accumulated renovation stuff that we'd been living around L: Got out of here R: Got out of here and our mental health improved overnight. L: Oh yeah. R: We have- we are in the home stretch on finishing the library. L: Yep. R: Which was a big- The library was always a big project because one, it was one of the more involved renovations in the building because the walls were rotten, the ceiling was rotten, the floor was rotten, everything was rotten, we had to take out a door. I highly recommend doing this because you learn that everything is lie L: *Laughs* R: So you just fix stuff and you learn- none- We didn't do this prior to getting here. We learned- L: That's true, this is all new. R: We learned on the job. L: All new. R: We learned on the job, but I think the thing that was so great coming out of all of that, is that you came back and we- we're really going again and I L: Oh yeah R: I was looking over- in getting ready to sit down, I was looking over the very large list of things that we've actually accomplished because I- I, like everyone else, especially on long term projects, get to that thing where "Oh, it's never going to move" L: Yeah R: "It's never gonna lift" and then one day you look around and I realise we are sitting in an area of the theater that is now a creative workshop. That L: That has two workbenches. R: Yeah two workbenches, shelving, stuff in bins, things are getting organized. We have shelving for circus props which have gotten unpacked because once the library got done, we could take a wall of boxes that were in our way, move them out of our way onto shelves, move the next wall of boxes out and start going through them and it's so it- it just started this cycle of doing and you have been going nonstop. So the time that you took to rest, I feel like you've- you've just got energy that I have not seen in a while and it feels good to me. L: Yeah. R: So I'm- L: It feels good. R: I'm grateful. L: You've been- you have been pushing really hard too. R: Well, yeah. Um- I have this thing, I don't sit still well and being- fighting- fighting with long COVID has meant that I have to learn to pace myself. The summer was very hard because it gets very hot and that is one of the things that triggers off all my symptoms even more L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but the minute the weather cooled, I just- I start doing stuff. L: Yeah R: I don't know how to sit still. I start doing stuff and so, in the, you know, recent history the big things are- you know, obviously the library- we built a bench in the library. We built shelves. We've- we- we put all this stuff together. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Carpeted it and all of this stuff, painting and there's so many details that when you say "You make a room" L: lots of steps. R: So many steps and we're not done. We still have things to do there. Um- the other thing I got back after about a two year break, because we got here and this place was- my job was to throw my garbage and then it was my job was to keep some of the garbage because it might be useful later. My job is to triage garbage. Then the dumpster showed up, oh please let's get rid of this garbage. L: Let's get rid of this garbage. R: So we got rid of some of the garbage. We kept some of the garbage. Somewhere in all of that I got- we got enough things shifted that I started feeling creative again. L: Yes R: And I started sculpting again. I haven't sculpted in I think it was about two years, I hadn't sculpted a theater mask L: *Affirmative Noise* R: because- and to be fair when you're sheet rocking a wall, you don't feel like then going and playing with different mud. L: No you don't. R: You just don't have that urge, but I had finished all of that work and the paint was drying and I had a little bit of time and so in-between things I would have on the table we're sitting at right now, I would have a silly little head. One day I had an idea for a silly face and I started sculpting and it started happening and then I would leave it there and it would make me laugh at I would come work on it and go off and work on the building some more, but then in-between I'm like "Well I've got an hour, I'll come in and do this" So I finished the first one. L: Yes R: Um- it was about a week ago, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: two weeks ago, something like that L: Yeah, very, very recently. R: Fairly recently, and I thought "Well you know, I'll put that away and I'll stop thinking about it" because I'm- I'm "Time to get back to work" and of course the minute I put it in- I finally put it in a bag and I put it in a box for later use where it gets stored, the idea popped in my head instantly for the next mask. And I was like "Two years, I don't have a thought about it and now it's it's flowing and going" L: It starts going R: So L: it starts picking up R: I think that for me, that reminder that "Oh yeah, I'm not just here to move-" I say "garbage" but some of it is, some of it is like, you know, debris from construction and some of it is antiques that we found in the building that we have to pile in a corner and figure out what to do with. Whether or not they're worth fixing. I mean, it's- it's a very complicated, messy process but it's very easy to forget what it is you do and what you're good at L: Yeah R: and getting those reminders of "Hey, I have access to juggling props again. I have access to theater books" was a big, you know, just to touch them L: Oh yeah R: to touch them. "I have access to arts and crafts materials and a place to work on things" and that started me doing things and when I started doing those things I remembered "Oh yeah, I am more than just a very terrible renovator L: *laughs* R: because that's not what I do and L: We're not going to have a show on HGTV, no. R: No. No, you don't- I joke about "This Old Clown House" all the time but that's because I feel that we are fully incompetent L: *laughs* R: But what we do have- what we do have is the willingness to keep trying and keep learning and we get stuff done. So yeah, so I've been- I've been creative and I've been organizing lots of stuff. I- L: Yeah R: I don't know what else I've been- I love making lots of sandwiches. L: I think, yeah, that's what we've been doing. Keeping on- keeping on working towards getting this place R: yeah L: where we want to get it to. R: The things that are in the queue that are like the next, I know finishing up the library, because we have a bunch of stuff still left to do in there. We've got another room that we started renovating L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and that will be, I think that is the first guest room. L: I think that will be our first guest room that we actually finish R: That'll be the first guest room. So- so if you've been thinking "Gosh I really want to come and see this place", don't come yet because right now the guestroom is a wreck. L: *laughs* R: But eventually we'll have a place, and that'll be, you know, where we would host someone when they come for a creative residency. L: Yes. R: and I'm excited about that, and I admit completely, I do the library before I do a room I sleep in. Do the theater before I do- The room I sleep in needs a bed, but I'm noticing a pattern with me that at some point I will need to make some space for myself but I keep being happier when this thing's greater vision starts L: Yes R: starts happening and we start working on stuff. It's- it's been a lot of uphill and a lot of frustrating- I'm glossing over a lot of the frustrating because that's not the fun stuff for our friends. L: Yeah, I'll say that the- the uphill and the frustrating is part of why it has taken this long before we have gotten back to talking with our friends. R: It's been one thing after another of timing and I'm having- I'm having a very good day today and I've had some L: Yes R: where they weren't good and you- and we've had some projects that overwhelmed us and we needed to rest and, you know, we promised we'd get one of these out and I- it's been eating at me honestly, because even though everyone who knows us knows you're okay, I feel like it's- in my head L: Somebody- somebody only listens R: Only listens to the podcast L: here, and have not heard R: they heard L: where I've been for six months R: and I fee- L: longer by the time we've- we've transcribed this. R: Right and I feel like that's, that's- that's bad. We shouldn't do that to our friends. I- I believe in slow- slow creativity but I don't believe in slow burn worry. L: Yes R: That's- that's not- there's plenty of that in the world. You don't need that from us. So, that's your building update. That's your Liam update. What else are we- banter. We've- L: I think we've bantered. R: Have we bantered? L: I think some of this has been banter. R: I don't know. I don't know. I feel very- I know what it is. I'm- I'm full of a good meal and it's cold and rainy outside and so there's that part of me that's like "I just want to be cozy" so we're being cozy tonight. L: Yeah. R: Oh, and the- and the other thing is I'm- I'm stalling and let me say why. Normally I say "Oh we haven't looked at the questions" and it's because I looked at them in a while ago but we picked these questions months ago. L: Yeah, I think we- I think we picked these questions R: Shortly after we recorded the last episode. We put them in an envelope. L: Yeah, and we haven't looked into that- at them since. R: I have no idea what we're in for but I do have to- I have to shout something out. I've had this thing in the back of my head and it's creative worry. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Which is that this conversation, this podcast, this conversation with our friends, is over. I always think "Oh, why are we doing this?" especially when we stretch out and then every time I start thinking that someone tells me that they're just recently listening to it or they're just recently discovering it and I had an old friend who hadn't caught up with us find out that we had a podcast and it said that they went through the catalog, and I was like "Well you know my whole life story now, we have nothing to talk about" L: *laughs* R: "How are you?" Um- and then the other, the other thing is that we received a painting. L: Has it been since the last episode? R: Is it? L: I thought we shared R: Did we share about the painting? L: about the painting last episode. R: We shared about the painting last episode? Well if I- if I- L: It was still really cool. R: Things like that have happened again. We've gotten little notes in the mail with questions. We got a painting that someone wrote a question on the back of, and we've taken it- to be fair we've taken those questions and shuffled them into the questions bin. So we have- we don't know where that question is. It may be here. L: Oh yeah, we have no idea which- R: I have no idea L: which ones came from where anymore R: because I want to do- I wanted to be fair but I want to say- I wanted to take a moment and say that those moments where this conversation becomes not just a one way conversation but a two way conversation? L: Oh, they're delightful R: Well more importantly, it reminds me we're not just talking into the void. We're talking to you, our friends and you're talking back and you actually want us to keep going and so I wanted to say thank you for that because I- I had thought "Well, maybe we'll just stop" and then we- we got out of nowhere like a, a bunch of people discover this and I'm- I don't- we don't keep metrics about it. L: Yeah I was gonna say, because like a key thing to- to keep in mind because R: We only know if you tell us. L: We- we only know if you tell us. We don't- we don't do the metrics thing. R: We- we don't do L: We're not sitting there with a R: There's no tracking. There's no analytics. There's no ads. We're self hosting this. We scrub that log. So we don't even look at it. We- the only reason we would look at it is for a technical issue and we would have to look at it in the moment, but the- the reality of all of that is the way we know this works is we put the message in a bottle, we throw it out in the ocean and we wait L: and sometimes somebody says something nice back R: and sometimes we see a bottle and I go "Wait, that's not the bottle we sent. That's a different bottle." and that is one of the most beautiful things about the way we work and the way we get to work is that people reach out. They feel motivated by that little- that little bit of humanity and I just- I wanted to make sure we said thank you for that because it has been, through all of this, the thing that has excited me most. It's never been, you know, it's not gonna go anywhere. That's- that's not the point. It's not gonna blow up big. That's not the point. The point is to have a conversation which I think is interesting, but also to hear from people who are listening who say "Yeah. That was- That. More of that" So, more of that. L: "More of that." R: *Affirmative Noise* L: or "I have this additional follow-up question" or R: or whatever it is. L: Yeah R: I thank you so much for that because otherwise I probably would stop and every now and then somebody goes "Ooh, I listened to it", "Ooh I went for a walk and I thought about the thing you said" L: It's nice. R: It is nice. Anyway. L: Are you done with the stalling? R: The stalling? This? My heartfelt adoration of our friends who spend the time to listen to us? Yeah. That's stalling and I'm done. L: Yeah. Yeah. The- the stalling that you've been preparing for the past couple of days since you haven't known what's on these cards? R: You know, I don't call you out. L: Yes you do. R: I- all the time. Friends it's like this a lot. Sorry. Yes I've- L: You've just been very- been very confidently having- having full- full spiels and your- your- your list of things you wanted to make sure that we got in. Did we get through all of them? R: Well that's what I'm checking. L: *laughs* R: Did I make fun of you? L: I don't know R: I don't think I have L: whether you have. R: I don't think I've made fun of you. Such a great thing to make fun of, and I haven't had the time. L: You've had the time R: I've talked to our friends. I've talked about the building L: *Affirmative Noise* R: We've talked about L: My recovery R: Your recovery. Which was something we wanted to make sure we covered. I think we've hit the highlights. L: I think we've- R: I'm sure we missed something. If we missed something, please tell us. See how I sneakily- L: Very nice. Very R: I encourage conversation L: nice encouragement for the conversation. R: Right. If there's something you want to know about, ask. We'll try to remember to mention it. In the meantime, I see you have these cards. L: I have the cards. R: I feel like it's been long enough that I don't remember the format. So let me remind our friends who are listening L: Okay R: of the format as well. L: What's the format here. R: It's been so long. L: What's the plan. R: Our friends, for several years now, have sent us L: Questions R: I was gonna go a little further, but thank you for cutting me off and getting to the point. L: What on earth were you going to say that was further than "Questions" R: I could have flowered it up a bit, and now it's starting to feel like the podcast. L: Yeah. R: You see L: Now we're starting to banter. R: Now the banter L: The banter has begun. R: Thank you L: You're welcome. R: I'm going to continue my point. L: Okay R: You send us questions. We grab five of them at random. We sit down together. We have this conversation. We answer the questions. Um- this show- L: You're fibbing when you say "We've- we grabbed five of them at random" R: We don't grab five at random. We try to L: We curate an episode R: Wow L: with the questions R: Wow, you make it sound so pretentious. L: We sit down. We think about it. R: I don't want to do an episode where all I talk about is shoes. L: Exactly. R: I wanna have variety and shape. I'm an old vaudevillian and the one thing we learned, and this is true, it's been documented. L: Yes R: There's a shape of a classic burlesque, or- or a variety show, um- not just- not just burlesque, people undressing to music, but- but burlesque as the- the overall spectacle. L: Yeah R: There's a shape. A classic shape, and I figured it out on my own. I thought "Oh, I'm so smart, I know how to build one of these shows" and then you were in a vaudeville museum? L: I was- I was in a- I was- I was not in a museum specifically devoted to- but there was R: a whole exhibit L: an exhibit that was put on R: and they had that listed out, how to do it. L: and yeah, they- they had somebody, a director- I think a director or a host, or- I don't remember, but had like, their "This is our format" and I looked at it and I went "Wow, that looks that looks extremely familiar" R: and it's how we built. So I'll say that while I- I- it's not random random, the goal is to create a nice shape and I- maybe we do that and maybe we just gave away the secret sauce. Everyone thinks we're liars and they don't wanna listen to us anymore. You might have ruined it. L: Well, if so, I did so by telling the truth. R: Oh, that's true. L: So I hope that- I hope that everyone does not think we're liars. R: We should never do that again. L: All of these are- What? Tell the truth? R: It's clearly getting us in trouble. L: I think you're the only one who thinks anyone's in trouble. R: I have a guilty conscience. Have you noticed? L: Ah- it seems to be- be on alert today. R: I'm a little heightened in this regard. Okay. L: I think it's because of- you're nervous because you haven't seen the- R: I am, I like to prepare L: the questions in so long. R: I pretend- well, here's the thing. I prepare and then I forget so I don't have to remember. L: Yeah. R: 'Cause it comes back and it's been long enough that that superpower L: May or may not work. R: This is- it can not get- only way it can get more not good, is with my- my clever use of the language, "more not good" L: *laughs* R: Is ah- is if I sat down completely blind and you know, was caught off guard. At which point I would just do a lot of swearing and L: and then you would have to go back in and bleep all out. R: Yeah. I don't wanna do that, so let's get on with it. L: Alright R: So, you send us questions. L: You send us questions R: We read those questions. We curate them carefully into a lovely episode of- Don't do it again L: *Negating Sound* R: It's not- not time L: but R: We could get out though, because we could be like "oh- L: "and that's it" R: and we're out of time. Sorry." L: No. Ah- and then we take turns answering them. R: That's right. We both- we both weigh in on the questions because I think my- my background is different than your background and I think getting different perspectives is important. L: I agree R: That didn't sound as deep as I meant- I meant to be complimentary. You've had a varied and interesting life. L: So have you R: Aww. It's nice of you to say L: So have most people R: I- I- Well, everyone is an unknowable mystery made of stories. L: Ooooh, that was nice. R: That's why it's so fun to sit down and talk to people. Oooh. The thing where I get smarter happened. Did you see it? L: Yeah I did R: That came out of nowhere. That was just wisdom. *Enthusiastic sound* L: It was at least flowery language. R: Hey L: It was- it was quotable. I've lost it already, but it was a quote-able. R: Guess it wasn't that quotable. L: No, I'll catch it later R: Alright L: once it's recorded. R: and so without further ado, without further stalling, we've- we've now delayed. We have questions, which our lovely friends so tolerantly have created to keep us from running amuck and force us to sit down and relax and answer, and so we don't panic at all. We take a deep breath in *Sounds of inhalation from both* L: *Raspberry blowing* R: I hadn't said release yet. You've got- you've gotta have- I was slow. You take a deep breath in *Sounds of inhalation from both* R: and you take a deep breath in *Liam inhales, then sputters and exhales* R: Got him. *laughs* L: I took too deep of a breath to take another deep breath. R: Well what are ya- what have you learned? You're getting high on your own supply. L: I need to pace. I need to pace myself. R: When you're talking to me perhaps you should. Take it- but let's- let's do this correctly. Take a deep breath in *sounds of inhalation* R: and as you breathe out think to yourself *sounds of exhalation* L: *exhales* R: That's a terrible thing to think. It's just a sound. *exhales* What'd you think? L: Worked for me. R: Did it? Just to think "haa" L: Yes R: Okay. Ha. L: haaa R: ha ha ha L: Ha Ha Ha R: Okay, okay. We're getting off track. Questions. L: Ah, yes. I have these lovely cards. R: Again L: On which R: You have these lovely- they are nice L: Oh which we've written the questions. So, R: Okay L: So, are you prepared for the first question? R: Who are you asking? Me? L: Yes I'm asking you. R: Oh well L: because they can answer R: but will be months before L: but it will be some time before we'll hear it. R: Yeah, that's true. Okay. Am I ready? On- on behalf of my friends who want us desperately to get on with it, who have literally sent us postcards which said "stop talking and answer the questions" I'm ready. L: Okay R: Okay. Go ahead. L: First question. R: The one on the card. Go ahead. L: I'm R: Start now. L: I will R: Take a deeper- start- go again I'm ready. L: *inhales, exhales* R: Are you ready? L: Yes. R: First question. L: First question. R: This gag never gets old to me. I don't know why, but interrupting you is like one of my greatest pleasures in life, and watching you break and laugh. L: It is so frustrating. R: You're so angry right now. L: It is so frust- I'm frustrated. I'm not angry- R: You're not angry. L: I'm frustrated. R: Okay. Deep breath. It will help the frustration. In- In L: *inhales* R: in again L: *inhales* R: one more time. L: *inhales* R: once more L: *inhales* R: and let it go L: *exhales, partial laughter* R: *laughs* R: You know L: Okay. R: You know, before you go- before you go. I used to get onstage and if the audience was really tight, if they were tense, if- if they were not ready to deal with me, I would L: *laughs* R: literally stand there in front of them and get them to take a breath with me and go *inhales* *exhales* and whenever anything went wrong I would just look at them and I would do it again and they would do it with me and we'd all be- we'd all chill out. L: yeah but I doubt that you said "Take a deep breath-" R: No, I would just go *inhales* L: and other deep breath R: and then I would hold it a little too long and everybody would laugh, L: Ah R: and then I would go *exhales* and then go "Yeah, okay we laughed" because laughter is exhalation L: yes R: with style. L: Exhalation Both: with style R: The first question, on the card, today. L: The first question on the card. R: You know, when you hand them to me, I get to it. I'm not like this. I don't- I don't dally. I don't- I don't wait around until the proper moment. I get right to it. I don't waste a second but with you it goes on forever. Why is that? L: I wonder R: *laughs* I'm sorry L: I wonder why that could possibly be. R: I think it's my unbridled affection for sitting here with- with you and with our friends and being silly. I don't do it enough so I have to do it a lot. L: Alright. Are you actually ready? R: *laughs* I have no idea. *laughs* Okay. I hereby formally declare that I, sitting in this chair, now, at this moment in spacetime am just about ready. L: Just about? R: I don't know. I need something. Clearly I- L: What is it that you need? R: I don't know. L: What can I give you? R: It had to get silly before I can start. L: Yes R: and it has. You've laughed out loud and snorted once. L: So have you. R: *sniffs* did I snort? L: I don't know if you snorted. You definitely laughed. R: I laughed, and I loved that and I hope everybody else is- is either fast-forwarding or laughing depending on what they need but not too far L: Alright. R: The first question, in tonight's episode, middle of the night, rainy night, beautiful cold weather, wearing a hat and socks, sitting at the table with my friends, holding a lovely thought and a lovely moment, ready to listen, shutting up now. The first question is, something you're about to say. L: *laughs* R: Go ahead. L: Okay R: Anytime now. What's wrong? L: You're interrupting. R: Every time we hand you the cards you stall. L: I don't stall. R: Read the question. L: I will. R: Now? L: Yes. R: You're stalling. L: I'm not stalling. R: Friends, I don't know what to do with him. L: You just are not shutting up. R: Showing up? L: Shutting up. R: Shutting up. L: Closing the mouth. R: The mouth. L: *laughs* R: I wish everybody could see the little hand pinch puppet gesture you made at me. "The mouth" L: *laughing* R: "Shutting The Mouth" L: The Mouth R: Alright. Professionalism. We have broadcasters. We should be better than this. We have a standard to uphold, as you know. That's why we've been doing this *laughs* for the last ten minutes. The question. L: The question is R: Is. On the card. Read it. L: I'm going to. R: but no you're not. You're just like waving- L: You're interrupting. R: I am not. L: You literally put your hand in front of the card. R: I did not. Did I? L: Yes you did. R: Friends, did I? What did you see? L: They didn't see anything. R: See? Because I did nothing wrong. I'm so glad we covered that. I was worried I was gonna feel guilty. L: This is audio only. They couldn't see it. R: Did you hear my hand woosh through the air? Hang on, I'll woosh it. *wooshing noises* L: No, that you making woosh sounds with your mouth. R: You don't know that. L: The mouth that you won't close. R: I'll close my mouth. L: Okay. R: Okay. I'm closing my mouth. Right now. L: *laughs, hissing* Okay. R: Don't let me interrupt. L: The question R: You smack me if I interrupt again. I'm starting to cry. L: The first question is R: On the card. *smacking sound* *both laugh* R: You're out of practice. You're laughing. L: Ah- Yes. I am out of practice. I did- I did make a decent nap though. That is the sound- the- the word for the sound R: Oh yeah, we gotta do a little wor- a little word moment. Put the cards down, we need to do a little word moment. L: The word nap R: The word nap does not mean what you think it does, which is a little rest with your eyes closed in a nice dark place where it's warm and comfortable. A nap in clown and slapstick is the sound of smacking. So if I was to smack someone and go "oh why I aughta" *smacking sound* The clapping noise would be the- would be the nap and a person who does it says "Well, I'll take the nap" L: Yes R: The other person says "I'll give the slap" and this has been your learning a little lingo with Liam L: "Learning a little lingo with Liam" R: That's pretty good isn't it? L: It is. R: I wondered L: If only any of it had actually been me. R: I know how we can fix that. L: Yeah? R: I'll shut up. L: Okay. R: Alright I'm shutting up. L: Alright. The first question is "What would an anti-clown be?" R: *mouth closed noises* L: He's- he's keeping his mouth shut. R: You said- can I open it now? L: Yes R: Okay, L: now is the appropriate time. R: "What would an anti-clown" L: "What would an anti-clown be?" yes. R: Okay. Truthfully? Simplest possible answer? and I'll unpack it after I say it, smartphone. L: Okay. R: Now, please understand, like all my friends I am a technology obsessed hacker-y weirdo. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It's, you know, it's a passion, but what I've noticed is that the clown exists in a state of wonder, a state of not knowing, a state of guessing and finding out and failing and being wrong. These are all things that are avoided by being able to look things up on the internet. L: Yes R: Also the other thing the phone does is make you not extremely present. I am not- I'm not attacking anyone with this. I'm just as guilty as everyone else, if I've got the device in my hand I'm only half in the room L: yeah R: Or less, depending on how focused I am. So, in many cases, I would say the clown is really just who I am when I put all of those disconnecting, pacifying, distracting, soothing things away and I'm just a raw nerve but then I turn up the joy and the silliness L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and as you know that device that is the glass pacifier that is made of sadness has a never ending supply of- yeah, a tiny bit of dopamine, but it's the laced with enough joy killing nonsense and- and badness that- and I don't want to focus on that but, but it keeps- it keeps the joy from happening. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: For the most part. So I would say shortest possible answer in the modern era? The anti-clown is the smartphone. Is a person holding a smartphone. L: I think that's a really good answer. R: But I say that philosophically and I'm not calling anyone out who's holding their phone listening to this. That's not my goal L: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. R: My goal is to point of the difference in the way the approach to reality is, and by reality I mean the- the- the moment. L: Okay R: because reality is- a L: Is a spongy concept for clowns R: It's- it's a wibbly concept for anybody L: True R: So, what would you say the anti-clown is? L: Oh, that's a hard thing to answer after you have because I think R: You literally told me to shut up so you could ask the question. You went on forever that you wanted my answer and now you're saying it's hard to answer after I do. L: Yes, because you had a really good answer. Um- R: Gosh, sorry. L: So I'm going to take a slightly different spin at it R: I hope so. L: and say that another possible anti-clown or opposite to, um- would be a stage magician. R: Why is that. L: Because both use the same- a lot of the same techniques R: *Affirmative Noise* L: of ah- directing audience focus but for opposite purposes. R: Example, explanation, L: Um- a stage magician uses the tools to direct an audience's focus to send the audience to paying attention to shiny thing that I've put over here so that you don't pay attention to the real thing I'm doing over in this other place whether it's just, you know, putting something in a pocket or putting- or switching something else out, whatever it is that makes the ah- that makes the magic trick work R: *Affirmative Noise* L: They're using the focus shifting to make it so you don't see how the magic trick works and clowns tend to take the audience focus in exact same- with a lot of the same methods and then direct them exactly to the real thing that's happening in order to go "Isn't that neat?" R: Yeah. That's actually, yeah, that's solid. I'll accept that. L: I mean- and- and- and there's overlap in both directions. I've seen- I've seen- I've seen stage magicians that do the thing where they turn around and highlight how a trick happened and I've seen R: Clowns lie to you? L: Clowns R: just lie to you L: I've seen clowns lie. I've seen clowns do um- do stage magic tricks. R: Oh sure. L: In front of ah- in- in front of an audience member. Sometimes with one audience member on the stage, they're doing the trick there and everybody else can see what the trick is. R: *Pondering Noise* L: Sometimes it's just doing a trick in order to follow it up and tell some sort of a story. So it's- it's- it's a little wishy-washy. R: So- that's not wishy-washy. So- so the- so the clown- the clown is showing us what's going on in the anti-clown is misdirecting L: Is misdirec- yeah. R: In order to tell us what's going on. L: In order to tell us some R: In order to create a story L: some other story yeah. R: Okay. That's- I think that's a perfectly acceptable answer. I think that's good, so I will accept that and I will move on to L: And- and I would like to be clear here in very- in a very similar way to what you just said R: *Affirmative Noise* L: we've both taken approach on what anti- meaning "opposite of" R: Yes L: Which is not inherently bad. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing that stage magicians do that, just like you are not calling people out for- for being in their phones. R: Right. I say- I will- I will add onto this that I've worked with a lot of stage magicians L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and we've gotten into arguments about this about like "What is truth?" "What is perception", "What is observation", "What is entertainment". You know, these things L: *Affirmative Noise* Yeah R: these very philosophical things L: They're very they're from very different views. R: Well and they're defending- they're defending their right, within a theatrical context, in which people have shown up because the word magician was on the bill. They knew they would be lied to. They knew they would be fooled in order to enjoy that feeling. Whereas the clown is there to reveal truth. L: Yes. R: It's a very different approach. Usually it will get you slapped by magician if you talk about it too much. Now, I would like to propose that I just get into this question and not stall. L: Okay, yeah. I think that's great idea. R: I feel like we've heard plenty from me. L: So we're going to just go straight into the question. R: Anytime you're ready L: Absolutely no- no stalling. No stopping R: "This timeline" L: What about this timeline? R: I'm reading the card. L: Oh it's a question. R: No that's not the question that's the start of the question. L: "This timeline" R: Stop. Everybody take a deep L: That is missing a question. R: Hold on. I hadn't gotten there yet. Everybody take a deep breath. I apologize. I didn't mean to suggest we were going to focus on this timeline for more than a moment. L: *laughs* *Inhales* R: but I now going to read the question which starts with that phrase L: *exhales* R: Alright. "This timeline is a glitched one. It's almost identical to timeline prime but everyone has a weird personality trait slash habit that is completely off character. It is immediately obvious to anyone who ever visited timeline prime. What's yours?" L: Okay, wait. So- so this is a glitched time. R: We're in the glitch timeline. L: There is somewhere timeline prime R: and L: and if you pop over here from there R: There is something L: There's something obviously R: obviously, you know, L: just off? R: What- what is completely off character from timeline prime, for you, that like, anyone- It'd be immediately obvious to anyone who is from timeline prime L: Um, let's see. This is a difficult question. R: Really? L: Well I'm trying to think about what- R: What is quintessentially, you know, L: What thing about me is, could be outside of character for somebody who was me- is a weird question to ask someone. Um- I like it. Don't get me wrong. I like it. R: I believe- I believe it's a good question L: Um R: Shall I read it again? L: Trying to think of an answer. We haven't- I had some idea months ago when we picked this. R: I thought you did L: and now I don't remember what that was. R: I do think it's interesting that- that essentially the question is "What is wrong with you?" L: Yeah "What's- what R: That- that shouldn't be L: true about you R: but is L: that shouldn't be but is. Um- R: Which I love like- that- that essentially one of our friends has written in "What is wrong with you?" I feel like that's on brand L: Yeah R: to get L: *Affirmative Noise* R: that question L: totally yeah. Um- Let's see. I think. *long pause* L: Ahhh- I'm too- I'm thinking. I'm thinking this is a hard one to come up with. R: Friends are on the line. The pressure L: I think that- you know what? Maybe timeline prime me does not speak German. It's kind of a weird thing that I do. R: Okay. You're gonna have to explain why- why is it weird that you speak German? L: because I literally like, that- that I got a German degree- I got that degree because I didn't want to have to take German in college. I didn't want to take foreign language at all in college and ended up with a degree in it. R: *snorts* L: This is a completely R: So- so there's some- So in the timeline prime L: I didn't- I didn't pick a dig- R: What did you do instead? What was your? L: I have no idea what I did instead. All I know is that I didn't- I didn't approach- approach school with a "I'd like to get out of having to do more of that" R: *snorts* *a flippy sound* R: That sound was the sound of me throwing that card at you. L: Because that's- that's not a good approach, R: I L: and yet- R: and yet L: it is what I- it is what I did. R: here we are in glitched timeline with you L: with a degree in German. R: With a degree in German *laughs* Okay L: That's me R: I accept it. L: So, I will ask you the same question. R: Please do. L: "This timeline is a glitched one. It's almost identical to timeline prime but everyone has a weird personality trait slash habit that is completely off character. It is immediately obvious to anyone who has ever visited timeline prime. What's yours?" R: *Pondering Noise* You know what to think it is? L: What do you think it is? R: At this point and I say this with no ego, I have had a career in comedy. L: Yes R: You would think at this point I could tell a joke L: *Laughs* R: No! I'm- I'm really good at telling stories. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I'm really good at saying funny things or things in a funny way but like the- the format that is "joke", I'm really notoriously bad at it. L: You are actually really bad at it. R: And you would think that someone who has literally studied comedy would be better at telling jokes. L: Right R: I think this is the tell that we're in the glitched timeline because anyone who sat with me and said "Tell me a joke" and I tell them when they go L: "No" R: "What happened?" L: Yeah R: "Who hurt you?" You know, there's something that happened. So, my answer, short and sweet is I think the fact that like I can't tell jokes well. L: That makes sense. I think that totally makes sense. R: Wow. You're agreeing awfully fast. You're very quick to agree. L: It's- It's a good one. R: Is it? L: Yeah, you came up with something good. I had to really dig R: You had to go for the German degree. L: I had no idea. R: I don't know, do I have anything else in there? No, that's- yeah. That's pretty much- everything else is- I'm a walking idiosyncrasy so the idea that one of them is off is a little weird but that one seems pretty obvious L: Alright, next question. R: Next question L: "One hears of actors" Sorry- Yes. "One hears of actors speaking of 'getting into acting' or 'studying acting', R: *Affirmative Noise* L: yet the two eponymous clowns within the confines of the closet speak of 'getting into clown' or 'studying clown'. Is there a significance to this choice? How does the intent to verb rather than be noun e.g. known as someone who juggles as opposed to someone who has a juggler apply to this?" R: First of all I love being eponymous. I just want to take a moment and just sort of wallow in my eponymity? Sure. L: *Laughs* R: I think, for me, I'm a bit of a knob about this. If I'm honest. So, early on there is- there's a problem in the world of clown, and it boils down to this. There are many people who have not had classical training who decide and you've- you've banged on about this L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and decide to- to take up the mantle and go do good work and often do. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: make no mistake, they often do, and those of us who have spent a lot of energy and time and- and- an effort to actually get some training want a distinction between that and somewhere along the way I got into my head that that distinction was the difference between clown and clowning. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: American clowns who are part of the alley system very often talk about clowning and ah- a lot of the European clowns and the people I studied with called it clown. Some of them didn't care. I know one teacher who is an amazing teacher and he says clown is a four-letter word. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You bring into the table everyone starts talking about either politics or- or murder. You know, they're either sewer murder clowns or sewer murder clowns. L: Yeah R: Yeah. So the thing I think does speak to this is my- my sense and the word juggler vs juggle- juggling vs juggler the minute you are "noun" the thing you essentially become archetypically that and there's an expectation there. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and if like, you know, if I walk in the room and I say "I'm a juggler" they're like "Well, pick up the, you know, pick up those things and juggle them. Let's see how good you are" L: Yes R: If I happen to juggle, that could be a happy accident. L: Yes R: I mean it's- it's the result of many hours in the lab practicing and I feel like for me "being a clown" *Uncomfortable Noise* it feels weird and bad. Trying to be the verb that is clown L: "Trying to clown" R: "Trying to clown" has- has potential for me because I could be that thing and then I can put it down or I could be there- and I understand the grammatically that should be clowning, and yet somehow in my head they are reversed, but for me the goal as a clown is to- is to be the verb. Is to be a verb that sometimes stand still and avoid calcifying into a noun over time and so that's- that's my personal distinction. L: Okay R: But I think- but I think ultimately it's- it was I came out of pedigree and pretension and um- and it stuck as a habit and I have noticed that when people talk about "clowning" they are either coming from, like I said, the- the American alley system L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Or very often in acting programs, there will be a clowning program as well. L: Yes R: That's weird to me because it reverses it again. So I don't think there's any particular- particular rule as to how this plays out, but to me it's the distinction in my mind, the difference between trying to be archetypically, iconically the thing that does it well and just trying to do the thing as often and as best I can. L: Okay R: There's my answer. How 'bout you? What's the distinction, is there a distinction for you? L: Tha- Read the question. R: I'm going to but I'm- "One hears of actors speaking of "getting into acting" or "studying acting". Yet have the two eponymous-" I love that. "clowns in the closet-" "clowns in the confines of the closet speak of "getting into clown" or "studying clown". Is there a significance to this choice? How does the intent to verb rather than noun, e.g. being known as someone who juggle, you know, versus a juggler, apply to this?" How does it all come together? L: Well um, interestingly I think you and I have- have different opinions on this. R: Really. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I can't believe we don't agree. L: but- and I will say, started from, for me, the- the distinction definitely started in the same place of- the, just, which schools say what R: *Affirmative Noise* L: but also the- to me, the existence of the clown state and the clown persona R: *Affirmative Noise* L: make it that complex noun-verb thing. R: I could see that. L: Where the- where clown is both the noun and the verb. R: The aura of it. L: Um- R: You can feel it when it comes in the room, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: for sure, there's definitely a thing. L: So, and when I've- and part of this is my perception of a lot of what I see from American clown, but American clown builds from the outside in R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and European clown builds from the inside out. R: Typically L: Typically R: I find that changes depending on who you ask. L: Sure, but that's ah- that- that's a- a generalization R: it's a pedagogy L: and while both can land in the same place, I feel like somebody who's "getting into clowning" is, because it's coming- from the more likely to becoming from the alley system and from a- some- an American context, is ah- putting on makeup and acting silly? Whereas somebody who is "getting into clown" is finding that being. R: That state in themselves L: That state in themselves and then embodying it. R: That's a really- that's way better than what I came up, wow. L: So- so that's why it doesn't- It doesn't flip the other direction for me. Why- Why- Why it's not sitting there acting like it- saying "I would like to be a person who juggles" It's like, no, it's "I am the clown" When I'm when clown- I'm in clown. I am "the clown". R: What if there's another clown? L: Then there's another clown. R: They're another "the clown"? L: Yes. R: So there "the clown", you're "the clown" so like, collectively there's- L: Then there's "the clowns" R: Oh I see. I see. This explains why children often refer to you as "Mister The Clown". L: Yeah. R: Me as "Mister The Clown" L: The- They call you "Mister The Clown" quite a bit and I think R: That's one of my- L: that's- that's a thing that happens R: Okay L: When that's what's brought in the room. So to- to me, um, that's how they relate. Is that, yes there is- there is a- there is a verb of what you're doing there with doing the work of the clown but it's embodying a state. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: So to me that is much more like being the juggler R: Is taking on the- L: Than it is being somebody who juggles. R: Taking on an archetype. L: Taking on archetype R: A persona. That's interesting. L: Yeah. R: That's- it's interesting and I wonder how much of your experience of that- because when you start looking at mask L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and mask traditions and you know- you know, while we play around with things like trance masks, which are- they- they're- they're more anarchic? You know, if you look at something like Commedia, where they are set in stone. They will behave a certain way. They are archetypes unto themselves. I wonder, studying, how much of your opinion was forged by stu- studying some of those mask traditions which we have done in more recent history. Did that alter your opinion or did you have it before hand? L: I think that opinion was already set before R: Interesting. L: I got into more mask work. I mean, I was aware that ah- the nose is the smallest mask, R: Sure. L: Conceptually and- and some of where the teaching that in- informed what I was learning came from, was from that but I think that was pretty set before I started getting deeper into mask. R: I think- I think what we always struggle with is that, once again, our- our friends? L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Who listen to us, and ask us questions, are way smarter than we are. L: That's true. R: I mean they ask us these deep questions. We're busy- we're busy up to our hips in cardboard boxes trying to be funny and L: Laughs R: and- and we're- we- we spend precious little time actually being eponymous. L: I had an additional thought on the idea of being the archetype. R: Oh? L: of the clown. Which is that while there are a few clown archetypes? R: *Affirmative Noise* L: We mentioned that the nose is a warning sign. R: I like to think of it L: a warning label R: as a cautionary, yeah. a cautionary tale L: a warning label as opposed to- because- because the thing about the clown is that with a few exceptions, because there are, as I mentioned, there are some clown archetypes, you- you don't know what you're getting into when you see a clown, other than something outside of normal and hopefully fun. R: It's- it's L: Like that's what- that's what you know you're getting into. So it's not like- so, while you can go "Okay clown, do something funny" R: Last time that- last time that happened I didn't succeed. I will tell you that. Maybe that's a joke telling thing? L: but you tend not to end up in the same situation as "Okay juggler, juggle these things." R: Well L: Mostly because you'll say "Okay clown, juggle these things". So, you know, there's there's no- no winning for losing sometimes, so. R: Well yeah, the funny thing is, I used to explain that when we were creating characters, and I owe the early days of our troupe to the fact that somebody wanted to just create a character and play that. I think one of the things that's- what's interesting was, we used to say that juggling was a plumbing problem and that it was like, nobody calls up for entertainment it says "I've got these three balls and I need them to move to the air in intricate patterns and therefore I need a juggler" because if you had a stopped toilet, you'd be like "I need you to come here and make the stuff go down the toilet". No one approaches entertainment in this particular way. Where they go "I would like, these- I would like the juggling to happen" because they- and- at the next level they want something off a menu they can order and yet simultaneously when people talk to us about the idea of- of- of creating things, they- they often come up to us and go "I want you to do that thing you do. I do not know how to describe it but please come and do that." L: "Do that. Do that over here, and then also over there, R: There L: and maybe R: over here L: over here" Yeah. R: Right, and so it's- it's a weird- it's a weird problem because I think there's ah- a tacit understanding that- that-that maybe it's the blanket term "comedy" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Maybe it's the blanket term "physicality". There- there's some sense that "Okay, that can happen in this area" L: Yeah R: and then we don't worry so much about how it happens. L: Yeah R: but it is- it is a weird- it is a weird thing that- when you start thinking about the- the nuts and bolts, the noun of it L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You don't- People don't tend to think of it in those terms. Someone "acting silly" L: Yes R: and "the clown" still may both be doing the same thing but they are very different somehow L: Yes R: and people have some vague understanding, some subliminal understanding of that L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but I don't think they walk in the room knowing it, when they go to L: No, no R: when they go to discuss it. So that's a- it's an interesting problem. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I'm going to flip this on its head. Before I do I have to put a small content warning on it. L: Okay. R: This question might suggest that our audience doesn't exist and I know they do. L: Okay R: So the warning is I'm about to read a question which might suggest that our audience doesn't exist but I know you do and I don't want you to worry about that. So I'm gonna take a moment and say "I'm sure you're just as real as I am." and now I'm gonna read the question. "A while back you discussed the concept of a fictional clown. Perhaps the clown's performance cannot be fictional, but doesn't matter if to the clown if their audience is fictional? Not imaginary, but made up of people playing a part? L: Ooo. R: and we have entered the deep water. L: It's a very interesting question. R: It is. L: I think, personally, that that depends on whether or not they actually become part of an audience, R: *Affirmative Noise* L: because I have been places where people are performing as characters, cosplaying which has differing levels of performing as characters, um- and have- and have been in a room where a performance is happening um- and I think that, assuming that they become part of the audience, they are actually there to watch the show, even if they are watching the show in character? I don't think the clown cares. They're a person that's part of the audience. They- like, they- they care that the audience member is there, yes. I don't think that the identity of that audience member and its ah real-ness matters at all. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Um- I could see my clown becoming very upset with somebody who refused to- who tried to be part of the show R: *Sympathetic Noise* L: because they are there that day being a character. R: Yeah L: Um- when it is not their show. I could also see that simply being something that is incorporated into R: Yeah L: what's happening R: You work with what you L: you work with it and- R: yeah L: and somebody ends up- ends up playing. So I could see, I don't know whether that's the clown getting frustrated or me getting frustrated um- with somebody who is jarring the jelling of an audience, with their focus on this character they're playing R: *Affirmative Noise* L: but that- there's a person in the room. If they're part of the audience that's fantastic and frankly the more out- if- if it's a situation with audience participation which immediately puts the audience member as- as part of the show, ah- the more outlandish the things that that person states are true that my clown gets to work with? The more fun everyone's going to have, in a lot of ways. R: I think- I think you said that they need to be part of the audience for that to work and I have some thoughts on that. L: Okay R: So I don't wanna- I don't wanna step on you but that's the nugget that I heard so loudly. L: Yeah that's the- that's the big one. I think that that it's, otherwise they'll have a good time. R: So anyone who's- anyone who's playing a character L: Shall I read you the question? R: Read it one more time L: Okay R: for the- for the formal record, sure. L: "A while back you discussed the concept of a fictional clown. Perhaps- perhaps a clown's performance cannot be fictional but does it matter to the clown if their audience is fictional? Not imaginary, but made up of people playing a part?" R: Well first off I shouldn't have worried about the content warning, because clearly this person has listened to us in the past, which I think is wonderful L: yes R: Thank you for the question. Now, here's the thing about playing characters. The playing of any energetic state, clown, any sort of persona L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I'll even say the word "-sona" and with a hyphen and let people put whatever word in front of it that they need to in order to make this point work. Um- any of those require a certain expenditure of energy. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I mean you're- you're going to be tired when you're done playing it. You go and you put- even if you just put on a costume and go to a costume party and there's that little part in the back of your brain going "I'm a pirate", "I'm a ghost", L: *Affirmative Noise* R: "I'm a vampire", by the end of the night L: You're a bit tired R: There's a- there's an energy usage. The performer who is doing this in, I don't know, I- energetically ethical? Like we we start getting to some very woo-woo country there, but is- is essentially going to the audience and saying "Charge me up so I can be this thing even bigger" L: *Understanding Noise* R: So like the clown hits the stage midsize L: Yeah R: The more you give the clown, the bigger they get. The clown will expand to fill the room provided. That includes the audience. The audience gives them a lot? They have a lot to work with. If they don't? Well it goes away. Here's the rub. If you are in the audience playing a character, and I've- I've encountered this both as a teacher and as a performer. As a performer I had a great experience. I was at a show and the show had people playing characters in the audience watching the show and they added their energy as those characters to my show and it was a gift L: *Affirmative Noise* R: because they understood that they were watching a spectacle and so they gave their en- wherever their energy was coming from, they gave it to us L: *Considering Noise* R: and that charged us up. And so it was funny. Yes, I was performing for talking dog. That's funny. Sometimes you get booked to perform for talking dog. Okay. So we did that, and it was a really positive experience because their energy went to the- went to the center spectacle that the audience was watching. They have to be part of the audience ritual for it to work. Now, what this comes out of in a deep low level psychological thing is what takes us into the lab. We are all needy egomaniacs L: *laughs* R: we're all needy children and when we perform, like right now, I'm taking the stage and I'm getting big to explain my point. Everyone's giving me a little space. "Oooh, let's see what you got". What- what happens is, I'm saying very quietly, like all actors, like all theater people, like all transcendental beings possessing humans, whatever- whatever version of this gets you into the lab to discuss this is "Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. Like, I'm great. I'm great. I'm great. I'm great. Mine. Mine. Mine. Mine. Mine. Energy Yay." I'm the central focus and right now I have it, it is appropriate for me to have it because I'm answering the question. I'm making a point by demonstrating it. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: But I have the moment. I'm supposed to. If you to grab the moment right now? If I didn't pass it to you? It would be inappropriate. If my audience switched us off well they're no longer the audience, so it's no longer- it's no longer relevant to this moment. L: Yes R: I would hate that emotionally but that's the thing. I was in the lab, teaching about status and focus. Which, the two basic ideas are, you know, "Who's got the ball?" essentially, and where everybody looks is, you look at the ball. It's pretty good. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: pretty obvious. If- if these things are a ball, I can throw it to you. It's your turn. But right now it's mine and I've got the ball. Isn't that cool? It's that simple. I just unpacked most of how theater works with the phrase "a ball". I'm really curious what color you think that ball is, but it takes us off the topic. Moving on. So I had a student who kept grabbing for the ball L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So I would be going- I had everybody sitting and I said "Please, let's go around in a circle, you know, you are getting to know each other for a deep dive" and I said "Tell me a bit about what you're here, and what you're learning, what your name is, and what you'd like to be called" Yada, yada, yada. This person does it, someone over here on my right side, I reached my left to say this, and someone on my right says "Oh yeah, I got a thing like that too." And I said "oh, really?" a second person does it. "oh I-" this person on the right jumps in again. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: They're grabbing for the ball. About a third time I go "Just a moment" and I turn to the person who's been grabbing for the ball, I go "Clearly you've got something to say. Here's the ball" and they lock up. Discomfort sets in. I haven't called them out. Very explicitly, I have not called them out. I've said "It's your moment now, I've put the spotlight on you" and this person turned out to be great in the lab, I want to be clear on this, but this moment demonstrated that they were dragging for an energy they didn't even know what to do with. They wanted that energy so bad. They needed that energy so bad. They didn't know what to do with it when they got it and they froze. Which killed the energy in the room. I think the problem of the idea of people performing the act of being audiences is there's- there's the danger of them crossing into performer mode like you are talking about L: *Affirmative Noise* R: at which point grabbing the energy away from the stage "It's all about me" and the energy dies. There's a word for this person in stand-up comedy. They're called a heckler. L: *Understanding Noise* R: Now, in the case of the lab example, this person was not heckling. They were genuinely trying to contribute. They were falling all over themselves to be a part, to make connections with every single person because they were truly wanting to be that person who connected with everyone and once we got past the focus problem of how they approached that, they became this incredibly charismatic person because of course they were finding ways to connect with people but I think it's sings to this problem L: *Affirmative Noise* R: That when we're working we have to pass the ball around and what's really neat about that is you can- you can physicalize this with an actual ball and throw it to someone and everybody watches the ball go and a whole room full of people turn their heads like dogs looking over to the left or to the right and it's a very- it's a very exciting idea in theater because it prevents that "what's- what's important? What should I be looking at?" It's gone. It's- it's- it's gone, the minute I say "Just follow the ball" they go "Oh". In the lab we named the ball Larry. We all follow Larry. Where's Larry? I'll actually stop in the middle of a class and go "Okay, where's Larry" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and people will go "I see the problem" and they'll figure it out instantly. They'll immediately get it, once they have that language, and I think the- the idea of a fictionalized audience, if someone is there in persona and that persona is engaged as audience member? It's a gift because they have more- anyone who's in that mode has more energy to give. It's coming from somewhere. They're going to be tired and hungry later, or they're taking it from people who are giving it to them, but they have it to give. So it can- I think it can be a real gift like I said L: yeah R: I've had very good moments, but otherwise it has to come from somewhere and it tends to kill the room. So that's my wise- wizened? Wizended take on that. L: Alright, sounds like we're- we're largely in agreement on that. R: yeah I just had a really- really illustrative L: Yeah it was really good R: example. L: I'm really glad to hear it. R: So thank you for letting me button L: Thank you for buttoning. R: and thank you for still being here after I rambled on at the possibility you might not exist. L: We appreciate it. Alright, the next question R: All right L: "How do you as a performer, leave an audience wanting more while also encouraging them to leave promptly because bed awaits" R: *Laughs* I want to know if somebody knows me- who's like- like really knows my work. I'm very bad at this. My biggest failure is I don't know when to leave. I'm usually the first person to show up at a theater for tech reasons and I'm the last one to go home because I want to say goodbye and have a moment with anyone and I've been caught after shows where somebody goes "Hey, that thing you did, it mattered to me" or or "hey, you suck". *laughs* L: *laughs* R: I've literally had the- somebody hung around after show to look me in the eye and tell me I suck and I was like "Okay thanks. That's hurtful." Um- but also I- I'm needy for that real connection and the stage is big and bold and beautiful and one of the things is that stages have this unique superpower, they can create connected intimacy and clinical objective distance at the same time. So I'm having this really emotionally connected moment while also feeling really alone sometimes L: *Sympathetic Noise* R: because I'm creating- 'cause what I'm really doing is creating a really connected moment and all my energy is focused on that. L: Yeah R: and so as a result sometimes I'm really wanting for that. So I come down from that heightened moment and I really just want someone to be like "Ooo, there you are. You're great" and I know a lot of people just wanna go home. A lot of performers I know they're, you know, I gotta go backstage and have a snack because I- g- blood sugar but then I want to have that moment with people. I want to have that connection because I think it's wonderful. So I'm terrible at this and usually we turn on the houselights and drag the clowns backstage. We used to have- we used to have a couple of things with clowns- we didn't let the performers- if- we had the- we had this rule that is "If you're in, your on". Basically if you're still in costume L: *Affirmative Noise* R: that character is still present. So we never got to see a clown or a character on stilts not in that mode. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So at some point someone would just come out and in character to that clown say "You gotta get in the box. We have to ship you to the next show." And you're like "All right, I got to go be packed up and mailed off to the next show." you know, or whatever the joke was they got us out of that, and that was literally- it took an external force to drag me away. L: Yeah R: It took- It took my next appointment, as it were, to make it happen because I'm terrible about it and like my favorite thing to do after the show's over, and the lights are- and the other stuff's- is to lay on the floor of the stage. Everyone, if you ever get to perform somewhere, lay on the floor there. You- you- it's yours. You- you earned it. No one else gets to do that. Lay on the floor. You lay on the floor to go "The ceiling is really dirty here" L: *laughs* R: "and I'm the only one who knows that. That little spot of paint up there? That light is broken. No one knows." and then I get up and go "Well, I guess I should go." by this point hours have passed and I have not left and people are still hanging- Yeah. I'm bad at it. This why I'm good at rambling. I'm keeping the- I'm trying to keep the thing going. How about you? How do you get out of there? How do you- How do you, when the show's over and people have to go home and go to bed, how do- I'll- I'll quote verbatim, now that my glasses are on. "How do you as a performer leave on the audience wanting more while also encouraging them to leave promptly because bed awaits?" L: Um- I am also bad at that. R: Are you? You should learn how. L: Um- I think when it comes to- when it comes to stage shows, you do have the framework of the end of the show. The applause, the coming out and R: the ritual, the curtain L: and the curtain closes R: yeah L: Um- and one of the things about- about the clown is that sometimes we've- it really does- it means an outside force, because the clown wants to be on stage. The clown wants to be with people. R: Sure L: and that- that tends to be- I've- I've- I don't know that I know any clowns that that's not the case for. So you do have to- you have to write an ending. R: Oh yeah, you have to write- you have to write not just ending, but you have to write that- that thing where the performers come out to the stage and say "thank you" and bow and whatever it is they do. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: you have to write that. L: You have to write that R: Yeah L: and then you have to- to- you have to make the clown leave, like, because they will keep engaging until the very last possible moment. R: I- I would write myself little bits, last moments. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Um- I remember one, we had a stilt walker in a hot air balloon L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and she got up on stage and she was dancing and singing and it was a big production number L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and we came out, the entire cast comes out on stage and throws balloons into the audience, a big big thing, and at the end we all leave. We go "Goodbye everybody!", we leave and we leave the stilt walker on stage. L: because they can't actually R: Because it's up a flight of- they can't go up- down a flight of stairs. We had to to carry them out there, carry them back down and so I come back out there just like "oh, yeah I forgot." and the clown picks this person up, puts them on their shoulders, turns to the audience and says "Gotta go" and now I'm forced to. I wrote myself both one last little beat, I love being that last person, the clown should always be the one who's like "Yeah, we did this together. That was awesome. I'll see you next time" and goes, and then the other thing is that I have to write away to be physically required to leave. L: Yep R: That's the only way I can do it. L: That's- that's what has to happen. Is there's got to be somewhere- somewhere else the clown has to be. R: I'm needed L: and- because that's also- I mean there is a reason why people, there's a phrase called "Pubing the scene" which is where we all- we're all going to go to the bar. R: Oh, it's an improv thing. L: It's an improv thing R: It's improv at ren faires. They all go to the pub. L: We're all gonna go to the pub. You have to write something that takes your characters away from the space they're currently in, with the audience they're currently in and gives them somewhere they're going next. One of the things that works so well with clown, is that where they're going next is somewhere where there's gonna be another audience, because they don't really exist outside of that space, and that's go- unless something has gone terribly wrong with your show, that's going to leave your audience wanting more. R: One hopes L: Yeah. That's- that's- that's- if- if you've done it right, that's going to leave your audience wanting more, because they've been having this playful, positive interaction with the clown the whole time and so, one of the things of those- those last moments with the clown, because the clown is the one who can have that last moment. Anybody else having that sort of a moment- they're- it's the breaking of the fourth wall, it's the break- because even acknowledgement of the audience- R: Depends on the type of show. L: Depends on the type of show, but like it's- it's outside of the bounds of the- the game that is theater for most other types of characters to have that kind of interaction and- and the clown can say "Wasn't that great? We'll see next time." That- that makes you feel like walking out of that theater might be walking into the next one, where the clown's gonna to be next time and that's the leaving them wanting more and also getting them out the door. R: I think- I think that, on the off chance that this is not just a- a curiosity but another performer with a struggle, because we do get- we do get those and I love that, um- I think one of the things you've got to realise is this is not an uncommon problem. L: *Negating Noise* R: Jim Henson, the Muppets L: *Laughs* R: had a constant problem with, they would write these great ideas and they would have no idea how to end them and they came up with three ways to solve this problem L: If there wasn't a- if there wasn't a R: If they have a logical- L: a logical conclusion of the scene. R: If they didn't have a logical way to- a logical way to finish a scene and get off stage, they sent- they either ate the performer, they had another larger monster eat the performer L: *Affirmative Noise* R: they had something explode L: Or they threw penguins. R: Or they threw penguins. L: So no one has the right answer to this question. R: Right, so throw penguins, blow something up or get eaten by an even bigger monster and you'll be fine. That's- that's the theatrical advice from- from- if- if the Muppets don't know how to do it, nobody does and it's fine. And that is- L: That's that. That's all of them R: And look, we've just run on and on because we don't know how to finish. L: We don't know how to finish. We're just going to keep talking. R: It's true. It's true. We're back. I don't know when we're gonna get this one out the door. We're going to try to get out the door L: As soon as possible. R: As soon as possible and we will be back, I wanna take the moment to say, um- for different reasons for everyone, we know this year has been a roughy L: Yeah R: and so, I am- I'm really glad you're here listening because that means we made it and you made it, and there's a clown I'm a big fan of and she says to me sometimes "Keep going" and it's the best- best advice I've ever been given. It's a two-word mantra I use for everything. Keep going. When it's hard? Keep going. When it's good? Keep going. When it's hopeless? Keep going. Without question, something else happens. I mean maybe it's, you know, you get eaten by a bigger monster, penguins get thrown at you and you explode but something L: Something will happen. R: Something happens. So, keep going and we'll be here with you, your friends at L: Two Clowns in a Closet. R: That's the stuff. L: Oh! That means I'm the one that has to go get the R: You've gotta go get the door. L: I have to go get the door. R: You have to get the door. L: Alright. R: He's new to the walking thing. L: I'm new to doing this part. R: Yeah, you gotta open the door to let the theme song in. L: Argg, R: Just go L: it's such walk R: I know. It's hard. Goodbye L: Goodbye! *Door opens*