----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 25 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2026-01-25 ----------------------------------- *sound of door closing* Liam: Hello Russ: Hello! How are you? L: I'm doing pretty good. How are you? R: I'm excited to do what you are doing, which is get under a pile of blankets and talk to my friends. L: I'm under a pile of blankets and a hot water bottle. R: Oh, you left one down here for me too. You are so good. L: Yes R: Oh friends, how to explain? We got a foot of snow in the last twenty four hours? L: Something about there, yeah. R: It was so cold. L: It is cold. R: It is cold. I hope wherever you are you're staying warm, unless you're somewhere on the other side of the world where you're very warm, in which case I hope you're staying cool. I hope your temperature is okay. L: That's a beautiful statement just- wherever you are, whenever you are, we hope your temperature is okay. R: I think we have found the slogan. L: The slogan for- for the day, yes. R: For the day, the slogan for the day L: "We hope your temperature is okay" R: "We hope your temperature's okay" Friends, it has been a wild one and we're excited, you may notice, we're here a little sooner. L: I hope so, unless something has happened between the day that we're recording this R: Oh no no no no no no no. When I sit down to record I am looking at the microphone, and in this case a little stuffed animal, and I am pretending that all of my friends are right here, right now. There is no future. There is nothing but the now. L: Okay. R: Okay. L: Okay. We'll look at the clock, the clock says "now" R: The clock says now- you look at the clock it says "now". So we're here now, and what I wanna do is I want to sit under this blanket, let my body temperature come back up from yikes and enjoy recording an episode of L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: You know the name. L: It's not accurate to what we're doing today though. R: What do you mean? L: We're two clown- R: Hold it, hold it, hold it. We got the microphone. We got the friends. We got this. We got that. L: Yes, but we're two clowns in a lounge R: *laughs* Right L: Today R: I just want to say it again. Welcome to "Two Clowns in the Lounge". We are in the central hub of this clown monastery where we grabbed furniture from all over the building and threw it together to make a room to relax in between various acts of renovative madness L: And we have been doing these podcast episodes in the theater. R: Which is right through that wall. We're pointing. Just imagine us pointing L: Um- but all of the tables are covered in projects right now. R: But this is- this is really cool because we have built a second workbench L: Yes R: and we've managed to now cover them both with active not- not like "We haven't cleaned up our toys" L: No, active projects. R: Yeah. Stuff where paint is drying, glue is drying, clay is L: Being clay. R: Just kind of being clay it doesn't need to dry. Maturing. L: It's- it's plasticine. It doesn't- doesn't need to- R: It's made of dinosaurs, it's already pretty mature. You've got a point L: but we do have projects going, which is very exciting. R: It is and- and last time we- we- we talked about a lot of construction stuff and as we knew the freeze was a commin' we- we have narrowed into some slightly smaller projects. L: I also was healing from a shoulder whinge. R: You whinged your shoulder so we decided to take- take the route of "let's work a little smaller" and we also knew that we were not going to want to be upstairs right now doing construction because it is- L: It's colder up there than it is down here, yeah. R: Down here we have a little bit of insulation, mostly because the upstairs is looming above us, waiting for us to get back to work on it but we have some very cool projects going on and I wanted to take a minute and do the check-in about them. L: Cool R: Alright friends. The first one has the best name. L: I do love the name on this one. R: "The Sunrise Potty Door". It's good, isn't it? L: It is good. R: "The Sunrise Potty Door" L: Which, as one might expect, is a restroom door. R: Right, so you have to understand that all of the doors upstairs are beautiful, and some of the outer doors, exterior doors, are the original doors of this building but some of the doors downstairs are hollow core doors they got water damaged and then left to rot hanging on their hinges so- L: Luckily, we discovered they didn't actually rot though. R: That was the thing. They'd gotten water damage, they delaminated and then apparently just hung up and dried, so we pulled them down and we L: Well, we pulled one one of them down. R: We pulled one down and of course this means that one of the bathrooms currently does not have a door, hence "Potty Door" L: Yes R: And I waited specifically on this project because the kitchen, which is across the hallway from it, has a door till- we were keeping the- we were after- firmly after summer, where we needed to keep those doors open for airflow and we now have a few months where we can work and there is still some modicum of privacy L: Yes. R: when you use the bathroom. The bathroom has stalls. This could be a very large detour into discussing privacy metaphors but what I'm trying to say is that we took the door off the potty and we fixed it ish. L: We have glued things back down. We have removed a layer of um- R: Laminate L: Laminate yeah. R: Which was was a really interesting, we were gonna try to glue it back together. We were gonna try all of this- so what we did is we- we just scraped it all off. We said "Oh, I wonder if there's anything down- if we keep going would we hit a good layer" Both: and we did. R: and then you had the brilliant idea that we could stick paper on that. L: Yes R: So we glued paper to it which is right now as we speak, drying in the other room. L: Yes R: and then what what the plan- the "Sunrise" portion of the "Sunrise Potty Door". The "Sunrise" portion is we picked a very carefully constructed palette of five colors which to us said L: "Sunrise" R: Exactly and we- we started using gel printing, which if you're not familiar is a form of very low- low fi, monotyping print technology which I will try to find a link to something explaining it and put it- I'll put it in the description but basically your roll paint on, you press paper to it, you peel it up and you've got one of a kind print made of the colors you've rolled on. That is probably as simple as I can explain this. L: Yeah R: Yeah. So we did a little math and we figured if we printed just three hundred of these L: *laughs* R: You know, sometimes when we talk about this project I see what our problem is. L: Yes. R: We decided if we just print three hundred of these we'll have enough to cut into tiny little pieces and collage into a door. L: Yes. So we're going to put together a collage basically replacing that section of laminate R: With paper L: on the hollow-core door with paper and an adhesive R: and then L: and then R: a lot of lacquer on top to seal it L: yeah R: and everything else. I think this is emblematic of everything we do here, because the first statement starts with "Well, we can't make it worse" L: Which was definitely true in this case. R: The worst case, we were going to take the door down, it was going to fall apart and we were gonna have to go get a new door and now there will be a sculpture in this place simply because we are not smart enough to go get another door. L: It's not about intelligence. R: I hope not L: but it has been an interesting thing to be working on and I'm really excited about it. R: I'm- I'm under- I'm underplaying how- how into this I am because we're in the middle of a dreary, dark, grim winter in every sense of the word grim and when I need a break from that I go and I play with bright vivid sunrise colors. L: Yeah R: And they have to be out to dry, so I'm constantly seeing them. We have racks full of them around the- around the place. We'll fill three- we built a drying rack and we'll have to fill it three times just to get this done, So we're constantly seeing some sillyness, some color, some playfulness and it's on a project that ultimately isn't that important but what it is is visible, and what I think has been beating me up for the last year is the fact that we have done an exhausting amount of work on this place that you can't see L: Yeah R: and this is going to be something that you will not be able to miss when you are going to the bathroom. L: Yes. R: Which is of course a time when you need... Art. I don't want to use the word "art" here, but you- you need creativit- you don't. L: No you don't. R: Yeah- that's the point. It's a very silly thing. L: You want it already to be taken care of. R: You- you- Yes, you want to take care of your business before you- so you can take care of your business. Agreed. I think this is a very silly project that has been good for- for our mental health L: yeah R: and it got me thinking about the fact that, you know, we're making it- I don't want to say priority but w- we've declared it as important we're working on it right now. L: Yes R: It's in the queue L: Yes R: and it's actually happening and one of the things that I realised about it was that we made space for it. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: We declared it important. We made space for it, and now it's happening as a result and so much of the time it's so easy, with that never-ending to do list, to just avalanche in. L: Yeah. I was- I've actually recently done a silly project to work on- on helping me remember to do those things that I want to do but don't have an external urgency. That don't have somebody running up to me and going R: You don't have me yelling at you to do it. L: Or- or R: That's very nice of you. L: No, I didn't say you yelling R: I'm saying you're being very nice. L: I've had- I've had plenty of different people go "Hey, building guy. Building thing." and I love that I'm spending so much of my time and my energy on the building but it can't be the only thing I do. *laughs* R: No. You'll go- as always, you'll go mad if you don't- L: So, R: if you don't play. L: So I'm really excited. I made a bingo board R: Oh? L: Of things I want to do in the next year. R: Yeah? L: and some of them are building things, some of them are not. Some of them are- are other projects. R: Can you name three things that are on your bingo card you're willing to share with friends to give them some sense of what the silliness is. L: Um, yes. Yes I can. So the first thing that we knocked off the bingo card and I say "we" because I work alone very, very rarely, so most of these things are things we've done together. R: I've helped. L: We sent a piece of art to the- um- oh what was the name of the project? R: Schall und Stille? L: Well Schall and Stille is the- is the musician. R: I don't remember the name of the project. L: But it's- something against algorithms. I've forgotten R: Explain the project, we'll link to it. L: But um- there is a musician in Germany who has gotten tired of the way media is media-ing and what distributing music has started to look like and decided that they're not giving- they're not selling the most recent album. They are only trading it as an art trade. So if you send them a piece of something you made, then they will send you a ah- flash drive with their latest album on it R: and I- I- L: and it's the only way that they're distributing it. R: and I think what's beautiful here is, as a result, we've had a back and forth conversation. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: We've had- we've had some interesting- some interesting conversations about this and we did, before taking part in this, we ah- we sent- we listened to a bunch of the music and we liked it. Which was even the best part of- the best part of it was L: Yeah it was nice R: was that rare moment where we were actually like "yeah, we're excited about this". So I think by the time this releases there might still be time to be involved in that, so I'm excited- L: We'll definitely link it. R: Yeah, I didn't really think about- I didn't really think about plugging it per se, because it's such a human scale thing but it's- it's very exciting to know that we're not the only ones thinking about working on this sort of human scale L: Strategies! "Strategies Against Algorithms". That's what it was. R: "Strategies Against Algorithms" Thank you. L: but- So that was one of the first things we did. We actually took two of the prints R: I know L: from what we were building for the Sunrise Potty Door and sent those that direction instead R: Uncut, two prints, and- and oddly enough it was one you did and one I did L: Yeah R: So it is the two people working on the project. Here's- here's sort of a proof that is one three hundredth of the amount of stuff that will get printed but it's just a neat thing that we got to trade and share. L: Yeah, so- so I'd put sending that off, because that could have easily um- fallen off of my to-do list R: Which would have been a shame L: If I wasn't- if I wasn't prioritizing it. So that one was fun. Um- Sunrise Potty Door itself is on that list R: Ooh, that's gonna be- that's gonna take awhile. L: Which is gonna take awhile. Um- I have a goal- a specific amount of unicycling I'm looking at trying to be able to do by the end of the year. R: That's- that's- that's three good examples. The unicycling one- I know how well you unicycle and that- L: Not well. R: and I think you'll- you'll get there in time. L: Yes R: Whether or not you get there in time I don't know, but you will get there in time. L: That is- that's how these things work. R: Alright, well, be sure to keep us updated on that one, but I think- I think things like that where you make a little list, menu, game, bingo game L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Of stuff that matters to you- We all know what we have to do. L: Yeah that's different than a- R: Than what you wanna do, what feeds you. L: Yeah R: and right now I know that's getting drained out of me by the real world. I'm not going to talk about the real world right now because I'm making a space for something else, but I'm going to share this- this idea of keep yourself fueled up L: Yeah R: for dealing with the horrors, the ongoing horrors, but- and keep yourself, keep yourself warm. More than just physically. Or cool more than just physically, by- by doing some things that feel good. That don't hurt anyone, that matter to you. L: Yes. R: I think there's a certain amount of that that has to happen for us to remember why we're- why we're slogging through it. L: Yes and I think- I think that that's important. R: So that- that I'm glad you brought up because I wanted to talk about that. Oh the other- the other project that's a little closer to home is we made a commitment to removing devices from the theater during circus practice. L: Oh yeah. No phones. No computers. No R: No tablets and it was- you know, we're pretty good about that as a rule, but even we had slipped into habit of "Well I want to be- and keep an eye on things and ah" you'd find yourself between- if you're- if you're working out between sets checking your phone, or listening for not- checking your notifications real fast when you get a sip of water and it was taking us out of the room and- and this is not a huge preach that everyone- I personally believe everyone needs to do this, but I'm not going to preach that to people. Making space away from it all so you can be in the room you're in and we built a room specifically to play in. L: Yeah R: and then to be there. And what I thought was interesting, within a week we were playing games. We were playing tag. L: Yeah R: We're running around and being silly and making weird noises. Within two weeks we were beginning to do emotional work L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and within three weeks we were starting to start talking about doing more of like, the active clown work and what that- how could we get that going and I feel like that was such a great re-commitment to being where we are. L: Yes R: So I think that had a lot of value and so I'm excited about that. One of the ways we made that work is we have a dedicated music player in the room, which leads into our other project which is Rhino Radio. Now Rhino is one of my characters we've talked about plenty of times. We named the radio stati- station after Rhino because I used to do vocal warm-ups as Rhino being a DJ and I've committed, now that we've gotten the internet streaming stuff working in the building, it's just for the building. This is just our music collection L: Yup R: in the building, but I'm going to record station IDs and it occurred to me that I can share these, and they're going to be ridiculous. So at some point I'm going to sit down and record a bunch of these and there will be- I will make them available L: I am looking forward to that. R: and people- people have joked about this for a long time so I'm- I'm excited about it and soon we will hear Rhino DJ-ing your favorite hits, or- or some of them. L: Yes R: and- and they'll be generic- and the thing is- the trick to it is they have to be really generic, so you'll be able to- you'll be able to play them if you want, or just make fun of me for having done it L: Either way R: Both- always a win L: Yeah R: Always a win. So those are- those are the most immediate things that are going on. I'm- I'm thinking. Are there any other little projects going on? There's a- L: I don't know. I don't remember whether I talked about the ROMPWOD project. R: No, but now that you've said it you have to just explain it in case you haven't L: Um R: *laughs* L: So I don't remember whether I'd already started working on this ah- last episode or not but we've started referring to our workout R: Don't- we don't call the gym anymore L: It's not the gym. I mean we still do call it that but R: I don't like calling it that L: But R: because that makes me feel like I'm a workout person. I don't like being a workout person L: and so instead we've been calling it ROMP. R: Which is an acronym. L: Which is an acronym, "Range of Motion in Play" R: And play L: Or "and play" R: depending on who you ask, because we argue about it. L: Um- R: So what's the WOD part? L: "Workout Of the Day" R: So you managed to get the gym thing back in there on the end. L: Just for me ah- R: because you're kind of bro-y like that. L: I'm just a little bit bro-y like that. R: That's okay. L: Um- no, I realized that I need- I benefit a lot from having a written workout planned, because I will forget what I wanted to do or what I wanted to focus on if I don't. R: So you made this as hard as possible. L: So- I don't think I did make it as hard as possible R: Are you sure? L: but I did do something that made it more difficult on the front end, that's hopefully going to make it less difficult moving forward. R: Well tell our friends what you did, because I happen to know. L: Um- I used the typesetting program Typst, which allows you to- it's essentially a way to script putting together a document and having that come out as a pdf that looks a certain way and you can set that up and- and mess with that and the reason I did it is because one of the things that you can do is "include"- you can write a little line, one line in your thing, says "include" and then the name of a file. So then what I've been working on is writing individual files for every exercise that I do, or have done, or might do. R: Are one of those exercises a carpal stretch, because after all that typing, you're gonna wanna- L: Um, not yet. *laughs* It's on the- it's um- it's on the "To write" list. R: Okay, just making sure because it sounds like you're doing a lot of work there L: and- and then one of the things that eventually what I'll have is essentially a library of exercises and so when I go "Okay, I think for the next month, or the next couple of months I really want to focus on a particular section of my body or I want to be working towards a particular skill" I can build a workout that helps me do that, or a series of workouts because I tend to do like A day, B day, sometimes A B and C. Um- I can build those workouts and eventually I won't have to write anything except for "include this" R: Yup L: and "include this" and R: there you go L: "include this" and then I just have that list, and once I make that list it will populate into a thing that reminds me how to do the exercise, reminds me how much of the exercise I want to do, and then I can send that to the printer, print it off and have it in hard copy, which is necessary given that we've got gotten rid of all screens in the gym R: and do you think L: When we're- When we're doing ROMP. R: Do you think this could possibly help you for some- some future project wherein you're helping other people train. Do you think- or is this just for you? L: Ah- a definitely could possibly help me with that, however the focus is for me R: Ok L: because honestly I have not- very specifically, because I've published actually, the- the ROMP stuff, it's on my website, but it is very explicitly for me. The instructions that I've got on a lot of the exercises are not the level of instruction that I would give to somebody who I was trying to teach how to do a thing. R: This is a good disclaimer. L: It's the level of instruction that I need when I haven't looked at this exercise in a couple of months, or a year, for me to remember which exercise it was and like, the key things that I need to remember when going into it so I don't mess it up. R: You, you remember when we we never told anyone we were kind of nerdy? Those days are kind of gone, aren't they? L: Those days are kind of gone, yeah. R: We're kind of nerdy. L: Yeah R: It's alright. L: I've- I've dived into to the nerdness. I used Typst to make the bingo card too, because I had been working on the- the ROMPWOD project for some time, and I was like "I'm pretty sure I can make it do this" and it absolutely worked. R: Congratulations. Get your propeller beanie for your nerdiness, and a- that may be a dated reference. I don't know. L: I don't know R: I think it still works L: but- but it has been a lot of fun. It's been a lot of fun and it's not- it's um- it's nice, because I can keep- like I have kept working on it while I was injured a little bit. Not a lot, but a little bit, which was nice. R: I'll tell you, you know, I spent years taking notes. Mostly about theatre work L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and- and really specifically, theater games. It's always with with ah- with the games we always have so much, because little details you- you lose because you rub the corners off of it teaching in lab. You go back to the notes, you go "Oh, this is how it was taught to me. I can- these are the changes I like to make to it. Here's my thinking on it" Adding relevant notes as I go, and I have been looking at those same notes for years, and years, and years. The longer- when we were running clown labs and things, that was- that was the stuff that became the basis of a lot of my teaching now. So maybe- maybe you're- maybe you're beginning at long last. Who knows. L: Notes are important R: I say "Take notes". We've covered that. L: Yes R: We've covered some building, is there any other- is there any news updates? L: I think that's what we've been up to. R: Right. So that means L: Questions! R: Are we- just that- just like that? L: Why not? R: Was there banter? L: I think so. R: Where was the banter? L: I think the banter happened between the updates. R: Between the updates we bantered. L: Yes R: Okay. If- if friends if- if you think we should banter longer, just tell us. *pause* R: I really thought they were gonna say something. L: Ah- they're hearing this after we recorded it R: I always forget. I get so- L: and typed it up. R: Yeah L: I know that it's just now, but there is a future. R: I'm so focused on the now I forget. L: Yes R: I'm gonna pretend they said "Get on with it" L: Okay, in that case R: In what case? The questions! L: In the case that they said "Get on with it", I've grabbed the pile of question cards. R: Are you ready? L: I am. Are you ready? R: For what? L: For me to ask you the first question. R: I get the first- I receive the first question? L: Yes because R: This isn't how we did it in rehearsal. L: We didn't rehearse this one. R: Well, thank heavens, because otherwise we would have done it wrong L: It's true. R: It's true. L: There was no rehearsal, there was just that one time R: Hang on, let me make a dramatic L: There was just that one time that you put the wrong command in. R: I did- I did type the wrong command. Proving I'm a nerd too. I typed a command wrong. That kind of proves it, I think. I'm gonna make a dramatic noise as I shift the blanket so I could be more in the conversation. L: Okay. R: Here it is. I'm in it. *loud grunt* my old knees. *loud grunt* it's hard to feel like you're in command of the universe when you're sitting under a blanket and you've got your hot water bottle and you don't want to move too far from it. You're like "I'm L: "I'm here" R: I'm here, okay. I made it." The questions. L: The questions. R: That you have. L: Are you ready? R: Am I ready? L: Yes. R: Of course I- Look at me. I'm under a blanket. I got a hot water bottle. I've got my friends here. L: You had- you felt the need to move and shift around R: There was a dramatic adjustment. L: I'm just double checking that it's done. R: *cracks knuckles* Now it's done. L: Okay. The question is R: The first one? L: The first question on this stack of cards R: On that card. On the stack of card- the first question on the stack of cards or the first question on that card? L: There's only one question per card R: Well that's convenient. L: Unless it's a series of questions because they all stuck together. Sometimes people do that. R: A multipart question. L: Yes R: I don't think we're mature enough to answer a multi-part question. L: Well, the good thing is we've only got one question on this one. R: Okay. Will you be reading it at some point? L: Yes R: I mentioned the whole, you know L: When you're ready. R: When I'm ready. *laughs* I've got nothin' L: Okay. R: Alright. L: In that- R: One question before you- before you go though. L: Yes? R: Are you- are you emotionally ready to give me a dramatic reading of the question. I mean, booming voice, do you need to do a vocal warm up or anything? L: I think I'll be okay. R: You think so. L: Yes R: Alright L: The question is R: Yes L: That is not an appropriate answer R: No, no, I was saying "The question is" "yes" it was phatic agreement noises. L: Ah okay. Got it. R: Please continue. Sorry for my interruption. I'm being rude. L: The question is R: Was I really being rude though? Playful, I think playful, I don't really think rude. L: No you hadn't quite escalated to rude. R: Okay. You'll tell me where the line is though. L: Probably R: Okay. Wait a minute, how am I supposed to know where the line is if you don't tell me? L: We are approaching the line. R: Oh, thank you so much. L: You're welcome. So, R: Question. How far away from the line would you say we are? L: Getting very close. R: Right up on it? L: Yeah pretty- R: Okay L: Pretty darn close R: So you're- are you annoyed? L: Maybe just a little bit. R: Ah- everyone, Liam's annoyed. Did you hear that? They said "Push a little harder, see what happens." Did- did you hear it? L: I don't think that they said that. R: They said it. L: They didn't. R: They did. L: You're pointing at the penguin. The penguin didn't say it. R: What did you say? L: I said "You're pointing at the penguin and the penguin didn't say it" R: Not all of our friends are penguins. That is rude. L: I know that. R: That is rude. Some of them L: I'm not saying all of them are. R: Some of them run other operating systems. Some of them are furries. I am offended by you blanketing them with penguinocity, I apologize on your behalf, dear friends. How could you? L: You made eye contact with the penguin. R: Of course I did. I don't want to be rude. Friends, at this point I let Liam off the hook. I put a small stuffed animal on the counter so I could stare at it and it happens to be a penguin L: Yes. So, R: I should- well I should clarify. It's not really a stuffed animal. It's actually a laundry ball, that- it does look like a penguin though and it is staring at me. You look upset. Did I get you? I warmed up. I don't know if I told you. I got- I'm ready now L: I see that you warmed up. R: I'm here now. I'm ready. L: You're clearly in it. R: I promise I won't say another word. Just one more thing L: You've lied now. R: No, I didn't say those L: Now you've lied. R: I- Hold it. I did not say those two things I said I wasn't going to say. I said something else. I didn't lie. I misled. There's a difference. My intent was playful. My heart's in the right place. Can we continue? L: Yes we can. R: Will you still be my friend? L: Probably. R: *gasps* I don't know if I want to play now. L: Just because the stakes are higher? R: Oh. Good point. Oh, go on. See what happens. Are you reading that? L: The first question R: On the card, in front of the penguin L: is "Strangest things used as clown noses?" R: "Strangest things used as clown noses?" L: Yes R: So the question is "Strangest things used as clown noses?", I immediately have like my- my library of thoughts of what would Tycho Brahe do? L: Not a clown. R: Not a clown. L: Though, quite a nose. R: Quite a collection- L: Quite a collection of noses. R: A collection of noses. If you don't know from Tycho Brahe, you'll have to look it up. L: Careful R: Oh yeah, yeah it ends badly. L: Ends badly R: It ends badly. L: Starts badly, ends badly. You may not want to look it up. R: You know what? Don't look up Tycho Brahe, whatever you do, but funny collection of noses. L: Yes R: I have seen a shocking number of objects used as noses. I've seen buttons. You know, the whole button nose thing. L: Oh, that one's really common. R: Where- were you literally glue a button to the tip of your nose. Use medical adhesive. Don't use glue. Um- I've seen every color of nose imaginable also, like of clown nose. L: Oh yeah. R: Um- and every material imaginable, paper, leather, rubber foam, plastic. L: There are definitely options. R: Yeah I've- I've seen L: Have you seen anybody do a wood one? R: You know, I don't know that I've ever seen a wood one, now that you say that. I mean I wouldn't know- L: Maybe t a wooden button. R: I've seen a wooden button so, yes. Um- the thing- the thing I think about, silliness aside, is that ultimately the clown noses a mask and anything will work in place of that mask, as long as- as long as the audience picks it up- as long as the person wearing it does it with intent. What I think is interesting is that I know that the things like the color of the nose does matter. If we see a red nose, any shade of red, our brains go "clown". L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It's just, there's not a lot of other things that do that. However, I've had a couple of occasions where I performed with a black nose, which made me seem like a dog. Which was hilarious but I've also worn one as a mime L: Yeah? R: and it was- it was hilarious because when people see a clown think they know what to do with that and they act however they feel they're supposed to know what to do with that. When they see someone wearing a not red nose they know something's up but they're- they get a little jammed up about it, and it actually gives us a chance to connect. So I L: Interesting R: There's things I like about that but I also noticed that everyone- people see- people see the red nose and they play with them and they try to be smart L: *Affirmative Noise* R: They try to be smart. They see- when they saw the dog-like nose they assumed that I was not smart enough to be smart with. They still played L: Interesting. R: but I thought that was fascinating, because it was- and it was just- that was just in the case of a color. I also know that there are many clowns who have done just make up on their nose and you know, so that counts, paint. Um- and I've seen people literally life-cast their face and re-carve their nose only bigger, and then put that on and then use makeup to blend it in so they had an exaggerated version of their own nose L: Woah. R: Oh yeah. Oh yeah and- and what it does is it makes you more of a caricature. L: That makes sense. R: So people are going to respond- if it's- if it is still somehow, you know, not something hanging off your face but it does appear to be the presentation that is your nose? L: *Affirmative Noise* R: They're gonna roll with it, but they're gonna still be affected by the content of it and I have walked around- I remember, I did something where- and I don't remember why, but I had medical adhes- I had a jar of medical adhesive and would just glue random things to my head because it was funny and I would glue like a playing card to my nose. I just walked around with a playing card glued to my nose, and people didn't know what to do with that and it was very silly and it was playful and it was funny. They didn't know what to do with it. So I've seen all kinds of things. L: Interesting. R: Yeah. How about you? Strange things you've seen used in the realm of schnauzery? L: Um, I have not seen as wide a range of things as sometimes it feels like I have. Um- button definitely. The button- I feel like the button nose goes right along with that point in a clown's development where you put shapes on your face with the makeup? R: Unless you're playing a doll char- because we had doll characters L: Yes R: at one point and the doll characters, a lot of them had buttons for noses and things like that, and it was- we were building an aesthetic. L: But I- but I still feel like the button on the nose, very specifically, it falls right in that category of things. R: The "I'm- I'm drawing geometric things on my face because" L: yeah and it's cute R: "I'm hiding" "I'm hiding" L: "I'm hiding" and "Hiding in cute" specifically with the button nose. R: There's a sentence for you. L: But um- R: Be real. Don't hide in cute. L: but it's- it's a stage that a lot of people go through, R: Sure L: Which is okay. R: Sure L: Um- I- R: You're stumped. L: I'm a little stumped, because I have seen that one um- I feel like I saw at least one person get clever on that and use a triangular button. R: Oh, I think that would mess- if it was big it would mess with me. L: Yeah. Um- but other than that I haven't actually seen a lot. I have made my own noses. R: Yeah. L: I have two different performance noses made out of paper-mache. R: Sure, and what do they look like? L: Um, they look like noses, they're red. Ah- R: So they're red noses is what we're L: They're red noses. R: We're back to red noses L: Yeah R: But paper-mache is a strange thing to stick to your face. L: and one of them is actually a little bit more flesh tone with red. R: Okay. L: and one of them is- is red red. R: Alright L: but ah- yeah, I have not seen as much as it feels like because you really could do anything. R: You could L: and there's a certain point where it's just a distraction because- there's jamming enough to get around the assumptions of the red nose, and then there's- I feel like some- like if I was approached by- I wasn't there when you did the playing card thing, but you really have no idea what to do with that. R: Well yeah, it was obviously- it was almost like a Magritte painting because I was just a pair of eyebrows and eyes L: and I feel like that- that's a distraction. Or can be R: sure L: a distraction from having any actual interaction- or what the interaction is R: Well, if you were to stick a strange object to your face, what would you do? L: That's the thing is that I don't- I don't know that I would. R: You just- you just wouldn't? L: I might for the right reason, but I would have to kn- but that reason would have to have- R: Not an olive? Not a- not a pencil? Nothing? I'm- I'm defying physics here to give you more options. L: Yeah, I don't think so. R: You wouldn't hang a shoe from your nose? L: Probably not. R: That's a stinky idea. Alright, well question answered I suppose. L: Yeah *clinking sound* R: I'm picking up- there's gonna be noises, because I've gotta get the glasses and the cards and things *cards shuffling* alright. I do think, you know what? One of the things I think about on the- on the noses, as a final thought though. We made some masks, they're- they're called partials? L: Oh yeah R: Where you go from the bridge of your nose to basically your upper lip and top your te- you know, they usually have teeth L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and they're just a giant beak like you're an evil bird and they- they're over the top L: Yes R: and strange and often disgusting and I love them so very much because you're still kind of a person when you wear one, in the same way a clown is a person, L: but it's- it's somewhere right between R: Mask and clown L: Yeah R: It's- it's a weird- it's a weird in-between and I think what it is, is it's the unexpected but they're weird and I love 'em. Alright. Are you ready? L: I am. R: Alright. So apparently it must- it must be costume shop night. L: Oh R: "Stilts and clown shoes. Is this done? What are the safety protocols if so?" What a great question to hand to our- our technical director and person that keeps us safe. L: I suppose that is a good question. R: It is L: Um "Stilts and clown shoes" I suppose it could be done. I- Our cl- Our stilts, some of our stilts have had baby shoes. R: I'm very proud to have baby shoes on my stilts. L: Um, because that- that fits R: and looks silly L: and it looks silly. Um- the style of stilts that we tend to use, which are peg stilts, do not have a like- A large shoe? A shoe that's larger than just the tip of the peg? Would not be a good situation there for mobility sake. Um- because I think that would just add weight to it. We wouldn't have any way to keep them facing forward. R: So it'd spin around. L: They'd probably spin around. R: I had that problem with the- with the baby shoes. They'll spin if they're not tied down right which looks very silly. L: Um which- which I think is not that big of a deal when they're tiny. R: But at clown shoe size L: But at a clown shoe size would probably be a trip hazard R: that'd be a trip hazard L: However, I know that there are versions of drywall stilts R: *Affirmative Noise* L: That have significantly more of a foot which I think could probably get a clown shoe style shoe R: *Affirmative Noise* L: placed over them without too much of a hassle at all. R: Okay. L: but I don't have as much experience with those, so that's me guessing on that point R: and I'm- I'm a clown of a slightly more venerable age and therefore L: So then the question goes to you. R: I have something for you L: The question goes to you, "Stilts and clown shoes. Is this done? What are the safety protocols if so?" R: The answer is not only is it done but there was an amazing design. It was a company, a million years ago, they don't exist anymore, called Big Foot Stilts and Big Foot Stilts built a clown shoe style foot, a big foot on a pair of really tall stilts with an articulated- I think it had an articulated toe and articulated ankle and was- it was really L: Wow R: It was complex. I've been on drywall stil- I've never been on a pair of these, but I've been on a pair of drywall stilts that had articulated ankles and it makes the walking very natural, but with the danger of overconfidence. But these were designed with a big foot plate so you could stand easily. They were really made for walking in parades and Disney liked them so much they bought the company, cut everyone out, and only use them exclusively for their people. So there- I have met some clowns who were before this buyout L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Who had Big Foot Stilts and I would see them and I would ask them about them and they said they are the most stay- they're like standing on a platform. They're completely stable. So they're the opposite of things like dance stilts, jumping stilts, peg stilts, where you've got mobility but then you get the pay off of having a really big shoe built around a really big metal foot and if you go even a little bit into it you find out that "Oh, there's- there's a lot of hardware in there" L: *Affirmative Noise* R: There's a big plate which is- which is plenty heavy. So that's like- when when I see clown shoes and stilts, I remember- I remember seeing that. Um- I've done smaller things, hooves, baby shoes, stuff like that and I've seen a few people take the like- the drywaller stilts- the- L: *Affirmative Noise* R: the roofer stilts- the painter stilts, and add shoes to them but that's so far outside of the spec of normal of any sort of thing that I don't know if there's a standard for doing that that I've ever seen. I would say that for safety it's going to be the same as all the problems of stilt walking plus the danger- whatever danger you've added on. Things people don't think about, if I can't see my feet I have balance issues. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I have to be able to reference my feet. It's actually very hard because our instinct is to look down to make sure we're okay, which throws our center of balance off. So one of the things you have to do for a lot of balance tricks is to learn to look up, but out of the corner of your vision you swing your leg out, you can still see your foot. Unless you can't. L: In which case R: It's a problem and you have to train for it and you have to- you have to work your way around that and the safety considerations become different. Um- I've been a part of costume builds where big pants or blouses bottom halves of costumes obscured views of performers feet and it meant their range of movement was dramatically shrunk. L: Yeah, not because it actually was shrunk, but because they couldn't conceptualize it, and therefore did have the balance for it. R: Right, and they were- and they weren't necessarily given the time to- to train for it, and again all of these things, can you go over- can you overcome these things? Sure. Is there risk? Absolutely. Um- I have been on a pair of stilts that have had malfunctions a couple of times and every one of them was disastrous. We don't need to recount my injuries here but all of them were about if anything causes a disconnect between the stilt and the floor, it is bad news. If anything causes a disconnect between the performer and the stilts, Both: It is bad news. R: One usually leads to- the second one usually leads to the first one, and then we have a performer connected very firmly to the floor. I've managed to avoid that more often than I haven't, but the last thing is it becomes a huge trip hazard. If you have something bigger than the- the foot, which you don't have any nerves down there, so you're sort of guessing where it is and you hook it on something you're going- L: Yeah R: to experien- you're going to experience gravity. So, but yeah, there was- there was a company that explicitly built them at one point. They don't- they don't make them anymore. What a bummer. L: That is. R: There you go. L: Alright R: I pulled from ancient circus history. L: Well done. R: It's all stale in there. L: Alright, let's see, what's our next question? Our next question is R: Belts. We've done- we've done noses. We've done shoes. We're doing belts now right? L: No. We're not. R: Okay. L: At least I don't believe so. R: Well what have we got? L: "Any examples of clowns addressing serious or dangerous topics-" sorry, "serious or dangerous to present topics in rough times?" R: *exhales* timely question L: Yep R: Yes. Very much so. The one that always comes to mind for me, is there is a there's a clown brigade or a clown army that shows up to counter protest nazis. They very famously have done this a few times, where they just mock the nazis so hard that it- it shut them down. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Um- it's really difficult to talk about this and not get very, very, real world but that's the first example that comes to mind. Is going out there when we are not escalated to the point of open violence, in that place before that- you know, before that point was reached. They were diffusing- they weren't getting involved in altercation, they were defusing the tension by being- by- by highlighting how ridiculous it was and one of the historic purposes of the clown was to come in and tell you- to tell your local culture, to tell your tribe how ridiculous things had gotten. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Whether it was by portraying the ridiculousness, or by coming in and literally flipping tables. L: Yeah R: and destroying things by- by upsetting the actual order. Chaplin is a huge example of this. You think about- you think about The Great Dictator L: *Affirmative Noise* R: That was a-, you know, that was a direct call-out of- of Hitler L: and several of his other films were also direct call-outs of things going on R: Absol- L: whether they were that extreme or not. R: Absolutely. It's hard for me because in my mind the clown isn't separate- the- the clown is a part of culture and therefore is not separated from the culture and therefore is constantly a commentary on the culture. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: When the culture is doing well the clown gets to be sillier and more- and remind you to play. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: When things get more dire, they're providing care or they're providing- or they're pro- they're providing upset. Um- I think of modern days I think people like Sasha Baron Cohen L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Who is- who is bringing a lot of really scathing commentary to times it was needed and- and bringing mockery in an open form at- at great risk L: *Affirmative Noise* R: To, you know, to- to- to the public eye. To remind people what they were looking at. To make them see it L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I think that's one of the- one of the jobs of the clown. In my mind I think I'm stumbling because it never occurred to me that clowns could be considered anything other than activists. I don't think I know a clown who isn't either loudly or quietly an activist about something. I don't think- I don't think I know one, and now it may be championing joy in miserable places. It may not be the biggest issue of the time. It may merely be the issue that that- that that clown sees that they can handle. L: Yeah R: That they can take on, but I think they're always there doing that and I don't think there's a place where they aren't. I- I think if you took a survey they would long for it. They all want it L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Sometimes you're creating silliness because you desperately want some silliness to exist. You're- you're making space for- for playfulness L: yeah R: and- and silliness and that is- I mean that's- I think a big part of my mission is, is I have two- as a teacher I have two great skills, I think, and one of them, in this area, and one of them is to- to create a space. To intentionally say "This is what we're doing. I know it is daft. Come with me anyway" and the other one is to teach the skills of communication of this type. To help people get their message across. So my- my- my assumption is that always the outcome of any creative process is a message L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I actually stumble on this question because I cannot think of a moment where the clowns doing something that is just pretty or just fun or just silly, sure it is, but there's always another layer. They're always saying something underneath it. They're always bringing something of their own and if the world is outraged, they're outraged. Unless they are absolutely making the statement of "We also need not outraged" L: Yeah R: So I think there's a lot of intentionality there. So I think- I think at any point in history and- and if you haven't seen "The Great Dictator" I think it is- taken as the idea that it is social commentary, that it is a film commenting on it's time, I think it is an excellent example. There are there other excellent things about it, but I think it's absolutely worth a watch. So that's where- that's that's my answer to that. L: Alright R: How 'bout you? "Any examples of clowns addressing serious or dangerous to present topics in rough times?" L: This is where I have to admit to my comparatively lacking range of knowledge. You used up all of the examples that readily came to mind for me. R: I used the easy ones. Do you have any personal examples? L: No I don't. Um- R: That's okay. L: and one of the things that- that I continue to do is- is figuring out what I can do and in what ways. R: and I think that's- I think the important thing we need to- we need to pause and say is sometimes addressing a topic is simply making- making space for it to get addressed. It's sometimes it's not your job to say things. It's not- it's- it's not your- it's not your- ah L: Sometimes it isn't your moment. R: It isn't your moment. That's the best way. It's- because it always- it's always your fight. Doing the right thing, it's always your fight, but it's not your moment and one of the things that I find, I very often end up in a support role and I often find that the real serious or dangerous to present moment or topic is- it's helping people L: *Affirmative Noise* R: because we're not supposed to do that now, apparently. Do it more. L: Yes R: I've seen you perform and I've seen children feel safe around an adult because of the way you play like a child. L: That is true R: and I feel like that is an example of doing what you can and it doesn't seem controversial until you think about all the layers that are on that L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So I don't- I don't think you're. I don't think you- you may not have a big easy example because I used them up but I think you have plenty of examples which are- are are human and close to home. L: Yeah, but ah- none- none that are immediately coming to mind. R: Alright, we can- we can leave it. We can leave it. Everybody- everybody gets one when you go "Okay, moving on." Alright, I'm sorry I used up all the great- all of the known examples in history, of table flipping. There's never been another guy that- only clowns flip tables, it turns out. You can- there are books- only guys flip tables. Clowns. L: What? R: I'm trying to make a Jesus joke. L: I know. I hear the Jesus joke R: It's hard to make a Jesu- L: but I can't- I can't- I couldn't figure out what the button was for it. R: There's no button. There's no button on that because- and this- L: Other- other than Godspell. That's the only button on that one. R: See? Now you got something. L: That was clown Jesus, if one hasn't seen Godspell. R: Explain, explain. Go ahead. L: Godspell is a musical that is in fact with Jesus as a clown. R: Well, they're all clowns. All of the- L: yeah they're all clowns R: all his disciples are clowns L: all his disciples clowns and it tells- tells that story. R: I mean, it's not- it's not my story but I respect it. I love the filmed version of it, for the record. L: The film version is mostly the original broadway cast. R: Well, I never saw the original broadway show, I'm not that old. L: Well neither did I. I was just saying that- it was a- that is rarely the case for a filmed adaptation. So it was R: That's true. L: neat that that was the case there. R: It was very messy. I've seen it. *Silence* L: Yes? R: Yeah, I don't know. I just was- I was just letting it hang there for a moment. I felt like the moment, you might have had something more, I was giving L: I didn't. I- I moved my head to the side and my neck made a- a massive popping sound R: wonderful L: and it was incredibly distracting for me. R: Okay. Well now that- now that you've scraped your knee, I've got- I've got you- I've got some you can come back with. You scraped your knee on a question L: Ah, okay. R: I'm gonna- I've got one you can come back, you come back strong. So get ready. You ready? L: Yes. R: "Entertaining things clowns have been deliberately confused by in performances?" L: Oh my gosh. Um- everything. R: Everything. L: Absolutely everything. R: No, but now you have to give good example. L: Yes, um- let's see. "Things that clowns have been deliberately confused by in performances" that I have seen or been a part of, because I'm gonna limit it to that. R: You're gonna- you're gonna scope it tight. L: Scope it tight um- R: You get to go first, so use up all the good ones. L: *laughs* Ah- I've done a couple of these in workshop that were absolutely- felt absolutely brilliant at the time, made everybody laugh. We had an exercise that was a- There's a- there is a form of exercise in talking about the theatrical concept of status that are referred to as master/servant exercises which are- because they are R: Boy I'm glad you stepped in that before I did. L: because they are a person who is in charge and a person who is supposed to do that person's bidding. This is one of the largest gaps in status one can have which is why it's a good introductory place to explore what status does to an interaction R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and in workshop we did one where the frame is the master says to the servant "I've written this letter. Make sure it gets delivered." like, that's it's a hand- R: "Take this- take this to the mail" L: Yeah, "Take this to the post office" That's the- that's the hand off and it is a- it is a practice in how badly can you understand the directions as the servant character and from the master character's space it's how much room can you give that other player to play. R: The shortest version of the game is I say "Mail this" and you say "okay" and you leave and there's no fun to be had. L: But I have had a few runs at that game ah- which just- they just got ridiculous because space was given, phrasings were and of course, in that- in that way that is so common for when you've really been in the clown space, I don't remember a single word of the actual back-and-forth but it was just every version of the request was nonspecific enough for the person who was playing the servant character to take two steps and then get confused and have to come back and ask for further clarification. Over and over again, but in like, new ways every time and it was so much fun. Um- R: It's fun to watc- you're actually- you're actually very good at it. I've watched- I- I was- I was facilitating that game, I wasn't in it. I got to watch you run amok. L: It's good fun, it's a lot of fun to play that. Um- I'm trying to think because one of the big things is- is clowns have a real tendency to think differently than one might expect and if R: They think they understand and then they come around and they don't and that's what we enjoy seeing. L: Yeah and sometimes that's that they're um- overly- what's the word I'm looking for here? Overly literal is ah- is a really easy one to play because that ends up being a lot of word games um- sometimes it's just- sometimes it's- it's levels of- of no longer- not knowing their right from their left and not knowing how to follow the instructions they've been given even though the instructions are- are much more clear. I feel like it's hard to give examples because it just happens constantly. R: It's- it is one of the big games that clowns play. Clowns are constantly being given- because they're low status we're- your back to status. They're low status characters. They're- they're allowed to be there because there's, I don't know they're supposed to be there. They've- they've been let loose like cartoon characters to run amok in a scene and they're given an instruction and it's like "You do this" and you go "Right" and your job is to find a reason to stay on stage because you like being there because it's fun L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You have to get things wrong and that's- that's the game but if your scene is too smart you're thrown out. L: So it's- it's- it's really interesting because I feel like that's- that's so much of the- of the game. Um, I know we've told the story of- of "Do not touch/donut touch" R: "Donut touch" That's the one- my favorite example of this game is this- this- this misread sign that says "do not touch" over a plate of donuts. So "it says 'donut'", "what's the second word?" Both: "touch" R: "Donut touch" "No, no 'Do not touch'" L: "do not touch" R: And we- you keep going in circles on that sort of thing until you're thrown out of the room bodily by someone else. L: I mean, my clown got confused halfway into playing a game of "duck duck goose" because they couldn't remember- they remembered the "duck" part the walking around going "duck" R: I think you have to say it more than once. L: Yeah but going- going above everybody's head going "Duck, duck, duck, duck, duck" and then um- failed to recall the second half of the game. R: It's great fun to watch someone walking around a circle just saying "duck" over and over L: ah- R: and- and managing the hold a room's attention while doing it. L: That was the R: 'cause they're waiting for release. I think you had to be bodily carried out L: Yeah you carried me out of that one. R: I think I had to save you. That's the other thing. That's I think why clowns like to work with partners, is because they can put themselves in situations they have to be extracted from. L: *Affirmative Noise* L: So what about you? What- R: Well you took all the good ones. L: "Entertaining things clowns have been deliberately confused by in performances" R: All the good ones are gone. I- ok, the "donut touch" is my go to example of the misunderstanding. This idea that you misread a sign on purpose um- deliberately misunderstanding- one- at one point we were backstage at a show and we were told to go out into the into the world and go perform, do your job. We're in the dressing room, go out there and it's- there's a sign over the door it says "exit" well we're supposed to enter the show, so we can't go there. So we went the other direction, which took us across the stage, behind another act who did not know we were there and so we're L: That was a day. R: we're sneaking, being a small as you can. Which, the smaller you try to be the bigger you are, especially when you're as big as I am and so you're- you're flopping along behind them and there's this band playing and there are these two clowns trying to like spy movie sneak across the stage because they misunderstood an instruction and when they later came back they got a huge applause for it. We knew exactly what we were doing but the clown brain doesn't L: and- and one of the interesting things, not to- not to steal the question back from you, but one of the interesting things to me is that it's important that the clown- that- that it's true that the clown- clown brain doesn't. R: Oh yeah, otherwise- otherwise everyone knows when you're lying. L: Yeah because when it's "wink wink" R: it's exhausting L: "I didn't understand that" R: we hate you L: That's not fun. R: we throw a chair at you. We don't like you very much. L: and it's difficult to even like, explain how that works except for that it does. Like, it has to be an- a quote unquote honest misunderstanding of it and how you do that is a practiced skill. R: It is- it is a thing that you hone the opportunity, what you what it is for me, stealing the question back, what it is for me is there's there's a ball. It's like a game of catch L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and you throw it back to me and I see it and I- and I realise there's a game that could be played differently. I don't have to throw it. I have to keep the game alive. L: Yes R: but there might be another way. I might be able to roll it. I might be able to bounce it. I might be able to sling shot it. I might be able to dance with it and I think that- that misunderstanding is where the- the job of seeking out games and playing them with great delight- you have the skill that you're always trained "What's the- what's the playful thing I could do in this room?" "What's- what's the opportunity that there is to- to bring a little energy to it?" because otherwise we're just getting through our day. Many of the best clown scenes are really "Get on stage. Do a thing. Get off stage." and it's everything you can do to stay there. L: Yeah. R: Just stay there and keep playing. Something fun will happen or they'll throw you out, who cares? Um- For me, I think the thing I love and I go back to- I go back to like the acts I perform, things like that, is it's little misunderstandings which open the door to stories. Um- Once you've decided something, because everyone is improvising their butts off, you're all trained- maybe you have a script, but you're always looking for this opportunity to do something and once you've decided that that hat on a hat rack is a person, well now you're playing that and the audience goes with you if you've done it convincingly and maybe if you have performing partners they'll play with you too L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I think that you create something by- by having these moments happen and that opens the door to tell a whole stories. Within the sort of the- this is where we take the flight of fancy. We go into the world where that silly decision, that misunderstanding, opened the door. Well if that's a person, than interacting with them is a thing. What is it that we're interacting about? L: Yeah R: What is the story there? This this object is a love interest, I'm in love with it. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: What does that mean? Um- I've- you know, I- you find yourself- I think you know, you- you find yourself thinking like a poet a bit, because you're- you- you have an abstraction. The misunderstanding is the abstraction L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and then you have this opportunity well, you can go "oh that was funny, ah-ha!" or you can realize that that's the door into something interesting L: *Affirmative Noise* R: That's when "Oh, life is boring but dancing with a mop is brilliant" L: Yeah R: because you get to dance with someone with great hair L: *snorts* R: and little tiny foot, feet, foot- point is if you play that with the absolute truth, the absolute sense of reality and I think the idea is that the clown- the clown is bored. I think the clown has the superpower of getting bored easily L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and as a result they- they try something and then the difference I think between clown brain and performer brain is the full acceptance of the thing that happened as a result of the playfulness is the absolute truth of the moment. They've fallen into this thing where like oh, I was using the mop as an example or- or- or a towel becomes a person that they're dan- they're tango dancing with romantically and then they drop the towel and they don't know where their friend went, and now they are having a dramatic scene because their dance partner has disappeared and it was the love of their life and how tragic and they never got to tell them. L: Yeah R: You know, or this roll of toilet paper becomes a flower and now it smells nice. I mean it's- you use the silliness to get you more interesting places because silly for it's own sake is important but at the end of it, yeah, L: but it can go other places R: I think it's more than I think- I think it- silliness is light. It's energy. It's- it's- it's- it's playfulness and from there imagination happens. L: *contemplative noise* R: That's where the- the misunderstanding is where the imagination starts and what's- and so the reason why they do it so often and so deliberately is because that's the opportunity for making something really interesting happen. Otherwise you're just getting on the stage, getting away with something, getting off the stage. Which is fun, but what you've proven is you're a professional pain in the- in the keister I mean, it's not- it's not as exciting as some of the- as some of the alternatives where you have a beautiful moment and people feel something, at least to me. L: Fair. R: Alright. I've beaten into the ground. I think we've subdued it. L: Okay R: The question. L: Alright, in that case R: In that case L: The next question, which I believe is our final question, R: Oh wow. L: We've gone through these what feels like quickly R: It does L: but R: but- but you don't know. You don't know. We could have been talking for hours. It's now. I keep saying, "We're now" L: Okay R: Let's see where it takes us. L: In that case R: Alright. L: "Anything interesting available as regards clowns in music?" R: Say it again because the case- the sentence construction has left me pondering. L: The sec- the sentence construction is interesting. R: Give it to me again. L: "Anything interesting available as regards clowns in music?" R: Okay, No that's- there- there are lots of things. I mean, the first obvious thing to me is that, and I say this as a person who is, while I may be natively musical like all living creatures, it took me a long time to develop a relationship with making music, I'm very bad at it. L: *laughs* R: If you have ever seen me play music it is as the result of I know one song, I've managed it through great practice and I'm very bad at it and if you make me nervous I'm gonna fail. Whereas I surround myself with clowns who literally think in music. Who literally burst into song and dance and play instruments and they're happy. You are one of them. It is annoying Liam. L: *laughs* R: but I think one, everybody has music. I mean, again, I sat there plotting and figured out how to make a little bit of, you know, rhythmic noise to be a part of the band because I just wanted to be there hurray, um- the other thing is that there are some clowns who are very musical historically L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Dimitri is always the one that comes to mind first who was famously musical, long past, famously musical clown. Um- ah- Papa Campa who has also passed was ah- was a great ah- was a great musical performer L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and surprise- always did in a surprising way. We didn't- we didn't expect it. After seeing all the silliness, to find out again "Wow, they can also be very beautiful, how nice." Um- I hope I'm not about to make a list of dead clowns, because I feel like I'm on the verge of making a list of dead clowns. I will- I will fix it. I know many clowns who carry a ukulele like it's a- like it's a defense system and a weapon and any moment could be called upon to whip it out and play a song and they know a bunch of them because it's an easy instrument to get at- they make sing-a-longs happen. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I have been party to roving clowns where we started our own band and we started taking auditions from the audience and children would join us to beat box with us while we sing a song. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: The song may or may not have existed before we started and probably didn't after because I don't remember what the song was.Yeah. L: Yep. R: I think it's one of those common languages and so we have an opportunity to make noi- boy we're always being told to shut up. Even our fans tell us to shut up and then they tell us to start talking again, which we appreciate but at the- the end of it, you know, the- the ability to make a noise has value L: *Affirmative Noise* R: You know, we- we- we used to st- we used to start off- I used- I would have this little rap. I would always talk about like the clown used to show up, you know, dust bowl era the clown would show up and they would make- the circus would make a bunch of noise and then the world got noisy in the clown became silent and then now the clown creates spaces so people could be heard. I feel like some of that is just to make, I don't know, occasionally a joyous noise, a sad noise. The other thing is that it's a dirty trick that music is deeply tied to emotion. If I if I move with a piece of music in the room, I'm now moving to the thing you are hearing. This is why so many physical performances have music. That and- and it would just be a little dull without some backing, but as a result there's a projection of emotion. I mean, musical theatre is all about this idea projecting- you know, you burst into song because you couldn't contain the emotion anymore. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: That's a pretty standard trope. I think the clowns are the same way. They- they exist with music. It's one more toy in their arsenal. L: Yeah R: I tend- I tend towards being pretty quiet when I'm performing. Which is ironic because I am a loud mouth the rest of the time. L: *laughs* R: See also, all those postcards we get that say "stop talking" um- it's- it's tricky because there's also a lot of shame and fear tied up in "Ooh, don't make noise. Don't get in trouble" L: Yeah R: and I find, especially when I've done some teaching with students who have been locked up in that way, and I'm one of those people who's that way, I'm really familiar with this, is helping people be comfortable making a noise. Whether it is finding their voice in a more metaphoric sense being tied to that or just getting comfortable shouting and yelling and making noise because look, earlier today, it's the middle of the night, I'm in an old building on the side of the hill in the middle of a snowstorm and I still thought to myself "I have to give myself permission to make some noise" L: Yes R: I have that in me. Everyone has that particular problem, that particular shame, and so I think the reason the clowns have to be good at that is because it is very human to make too much noise. L: Yeah R: There's my answer I think. So there. How about you friend? " Anything interesting available as regards to clowns in music?" L: Um yeah. I mean there's- I think there's- there's a ton of stuff. I know- I think it's really funny, on the- the idea of a that music is one of- one of the tools in the arsenal of clown tools, my two earliest clowns that I remember was from the television show "The Big Comfy Couch" R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Which as a children's TV show R: Full of sing-a-longs L: has a lot of music in it and then the local children's theater had a mascot who was a clown and that clown was called "Showtime Pal" and would come out during intermission of whatever the theatrical piece was and I cannot tell you how many times I have sung along to "Do Your Ears Hang Low?" with Showtime Pal. So many times. And it's not a b- R: No-one ever said the bar had to be high. L: The bar is not necessarily high. That- I mean it- it can be that simple. It's a sing-a-long. It gets people back in their seats, in the space, in the room, ready to play or in this- in that case ready to receive, because it's- it's- it was still more formal theater. It was less interactive R: Very fancy, Very important. Very fancy. L: but it- but it allowed for people to have a little bit of a stress break and a play break. R: You know who else we forgot? L: I do and I'm excited because I get to say it. R: Because you get to say it. Okay go. L: Ah Victor Borge. R: Viktor Borge. L: Or Borge, I'm not sure which- R: Yeah, yeah. L: which way it's pronounced. R: Musical- I would argue musical clown. L: Brilliant, and I would most certainly argue musical clown. So when- when you talk about the bar doesn't have to be high? It doesn't have to be high, R: but it could be L: but it can be and he is an example of when it is. Ah- I think I think there's a lot of good musical comedy R: If you- if you go back to vaudeville L: To me R: if you go back to vaudeville you start seeing lots of it L: just tons of it yeah. To me, I feel like there's- there's always sort of that thing of "What's clown? What's ah- comedian?" and I think that's a difficult thing to draw a line on but I do feel like Victor Borge specifically is playing with music or playing with language. It is so much being playful, R: *Affirmative Noise* L: that to me it is undeniably clown. R: I think the keywords "playing with" not- not playing a funny song, but playing Both: with music L: Yeah. R: and that is one of the key- key differences for me. L: because I feel like it's- it's really easy to grab other comedic musicians, ah- for example, oh my gosh- how am I blanking on his name R: because you don't write all these things down before we start. L: Yeah R: Why- "Why don't?" "because I don't rehearse ever" L: Um- "Poisoning Pigeons in the Park" and other R: Tom Lehrer. L: Tom Lehrer. R: I'm ashamed to know you. L: my R: Hang your head in shame. Hang your head in shame. Yes you're right. L: Comes to my defense of "because we don't write these things down in advance" and then goes "but hang your head in shame because you couldn't remember Tom Lehrer's name. R: You should have both. You should have both. You should both not rehearse and the opportunity to hang your head in shame, and then redeem yourself with the genius you're about to present. I dare you. L: and I feel like while his work is all- was- was also hilarious and talking about things where people are- are making a point R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and- and poignant, that's all true there, and granted I've never gotten to see what his live performances were like and sometimes that does change what things are R: There's video, we we're going to send you to school. L: I've gotten to see a little bit of it. R: We're gonna send you to school. L: I don't know if I would consider his work clown. R: No. Satirist. L: Yeah, and that's it's a very different thing, but also brilliant but I think that in contrast Victor Borge absolutely is playing with things in a way that is clown. I'm trying to think of- of any others. I mean immediately makes me think about the fact that I've got a whole bunch of emergency kazoos for kazoo related emergencies. R: Yeah L: because that was a thing- that is a thing that ah- Jane concerns themselves with. Um- R: keeping a few extra L: *Affirmative Noise* R: plastic wrapped for emergencies. L: Yes, well there's- there's Jane's emergency kazoo for kazoo related emergencies. R: but then there's the spares that you carry L: and there are spares in case other people need an emergency kazoo, because apparently not everyone carries one. R: Do you? L: No I don't. *laughs* R: Proving the point. L: Yes R: It's a constant problem. L: So ah- I'm trying to think about if there's anything else that I can like point people towards. I don't think off the top of my head there is, but it's R: I- I struggle because most of my- most of my favorite references are so far out of date that they're practically in the public domain and often our and than anything current I'm trying not to push people towards "Here's an example of something that will make you cringe tomorrow" L: Right? Yeah, that's also a complicated thing. R: I struggle with that. I- I think one of my favorite memories of playing with music as a clown though I can share. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: There- there- there are two but they're both accordion related.Um- I- I got a toy accordion, again I can barely play and I got a bell in the same key as one of the notes and I was out at a gig and I got trapped in the corner, a bunch of kids wanted a show and I happen to have this- I was walking around with the accordion because I had no plan. So I'm walking around, the kid sits down- kids sit down, they're like "Do a show" and I'm like "Alright, we're gonna do a show" and I- I basically through- through clever use of child psychology ring the bell and get them all to salivate. I think that's probably not enough to make this work. So, I ring the bell and I get them all to say "Hey!" L: *laughs* R: and then I played the Tetris theme which sounds a lot like the korobushka and then I played it very dramatically, and then I'd ring the bell and the kids would all say "Hey" and then I found the one kid who was the most involved and handed them the bell. *to the Tetris theme* "da, da da da, da da da, da, da, da, da, da da, da da" L: "bup bup" R: No not "bup bup" L: Oh R: look at the kid, the kid goes "ding ding" L: Hey! R: and everybody screams "Hey!" and it was such- it was such- I've now described something that took an hour to make happen. L: Yes R: You know, and this was me summarizing a massive event of playing with people and getting them and going "no, no, no, you've done wrong. We must start again. Oh" and you know, all of this. The great composition. L: All the drama. R: All the drama of it, but in the end it was a very simple thing. Wait for the right point, and shout "yay- hey" that L: Yup R: That's the beauty of music. Again, music as a toy, L: Yes R: is you just- you just play with it. I hate the word "just" here. L: but yeah you play with it. R: You play with it. Some people do this very well, and some people are afraid to make noise. I'm- again, L: the ka- R: tend to be very quiet L: Yeah, the kazoo is a fun- is a fun one because it is- it's- if you don't know how to use one it's very easy to teach someone how to use one R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and it's R: it sounds silly. L: It sounds silly so you don't hold yourself too- too tightly with it because there's no there's no version of it that's going to sound beautiful but you're playing an instrument which means you get to be part of the band. R: That is the best part L: and that is- that is the fun thing. R: I've been a part- I have been a part of a clown band that had a kazoo, a melodica, and a little toy accordion and walked all over a festival L: Exactly R: Doing shows! I mean that was it. It was great L: *Affirmative Noise* R: There are great photos. It's a good day. It's not- There's a- I think always with the, you know, you must be- there's- there's this you must be the best- "You must be the best"-ness in a lot of people's thinking about- whether it's music, or juggling, and this is why I never want to be any of those things with the -er. I don't wanna be a juggler, a musician, I don't want to be any of those- any of those nouns. I want to be a verb and play with toys. Clown lets me do that and that's why I love it, because at the end of the day we're told to get good at something for the sake of a hustle. L: Yeah R: Which makes no sense to me, because I'm always reminded of learning the unicycle. Was very bad at it. It took me a long time, and I eventually, over a great period of time, won out over the victory of inches and I went for a ride and somebody pulled up alongside me and said "Great job!" and all I could think to say is "Not really." L: *Laughs* R: Not really. It's riding a unicycle. You don't get dental with it. It's not a great job, but it's- it's fun and that's why I do it. That's why we do everything. It's why we do this. L: It is why we do this. R: Yeah L: Because it's fun to talk with our friends. R: I hope you're having- I hope you're having fun. L: I am. R: Are you? L: I am. R: You are, right now? L: Are you? R: Me? Never. It's inappropriate. L: To have fun? R: Yeah. I wouldn't do anything- I wouldn't do anything so- so questionable. I'm a mature adult. L: Lies. R: I have a cabinet full of kazoos. Do not mess with me. L: *laughs* R: I think- I think all of this today seems to be about "Make a little room to play" L: Yeah R: That's why I keep- I keep coming back to- I keep coming back to- I don't- I don't like to- we're- we're button seekers. You and I are the worst at it. L: We really are R: but the- the thing that I come back to all the time, is that sometimes you see a pattern in something you're doing and what I see is "make a space to be a little silly" I don't like to- to be prescriptivist but I think you need it L: and I hope you get it. I hope you find it. R: Yeah, because I know we do. We get to, because we get to do silly things like record and play kazoos and- and share that with others where and how we can. I hope you make some space for some silliness. I hope, you know, you pick a project- and I think about this also, a lot of the silly things that we do take a really long time. Whether it's learning to ride a unicycle L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Whether it's making three hundred collages so you can cut them to shreds. Whether it's rebuilding a building, or recording a podcast. All of these things take time. You have to slow down and savor them and you have to enjoy- you have to enjoy the messy part L: Yes. R: and it's very easy- it's very easy to skip it. It's very easy to skip over it to get it done. Checkbox. Off the to-do list. That sort of thing is useful, laundry checkbox. Get it off the to-do list. I agree. Unless you really enjoy it in which case, hurray, enjoy it, but if you- if you don't make some of those things be playful- Why beat yourself up? Life's gonna do that, you know? L: Yeah R: Yeah. Any final parting thoughts? We're- we're holding- L: I feel- I feel like we've- we've hit the end. We've run out of questions. R: You know what it is? We got back here sooner, and as a result we didn't feel like we needed to stay forever. I mean we're lingering now. We all know that. L: Oh definitely. R: We're lingering now. I know your brain is finally percolating. You're thinking about "oh" a part of me is like "Oh, I could have said this, earlier- maybe I could say this to say-" L: then you're over- then you're overthinking it. R: No, I got the percolating brain- I got- I got brain fizzies. What's- what's it called, carbonation in the brain. I got like champagne- when you *rushing sound effect*. I don't know, seltzer. L: You're overthinking it. R: I'm not. I'm having a good time. L: Well that's good. R: If I was overthinking it I would stop because I would be over thinking it. L: That's not quite how that word works. R: And yet- And yet here we are. You want to walk out? You want to walk out, slam the door behind you? I'll let you do it. Go on- go on, do it. Walk out in a huff. L: *exhales* R: Oh you huffed already. You're good to go now. All you- all we have to do from here is finish it. Ya just have to finish- no you can't get up yet. You didn't say the thing. Don't L: Don't what? R: Don't what? Don't walk out of here yet. You haven't said the thing. L: You're assuming I'm incapable of speaking between when I take the blankets off of my lap and when I get up and walk over to that door. R: Yeah. You think I want you to go that easily? We're having a little- a little- we're post bantering. L: We are doing some post banter. R: See, post banter is weird. I don't know. I don't know how to feel about it. L: I don't know. How do our friends feel about it? R: I don't know. Maybe they'll let us know. L: Do let us know. How do you feel about the post banter? This is not um- activity bait R: *laughs* L: for- for some- some nefarious reason. We have no such requirements. We'd like to hear from you. R: Yeah. We wouldn't even know you were out there if you didn't tell us. L: Yeah R: and boy do you tell us. It's good. L: It's wonderful. R: It's real good. We get weird stuff by mail. It makes me happy. L: So, for those of you who are penguins, for those of you who are not penguins R: The penguin and not penguin bunch L: I'd love to hear your opinions, both on our- our post banter on what "overthinking it" means, and R: Wow L: any further questions. R: You're really good at this. You should get a podcast. L: I have a podcast. R: What's it called? L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: Gotcha. L: Thank you. R: We'll see you next time. *footsteps* R: It's just us. He left. I'm so excited to- oh no! Don't hit the door! The theme song! *door opens*