----------------------------------- Two Clowns in a Closet - Episode 26 https://circusfreaks.org/podcast Recorded on 2026-05-29 ----------------------------------- *Sound of door closing* Russ: Hey! Liam: Hey! R: I have arrived at last. L: Welcome. R: Welcome, welcome. Hello friends. I am working my way over there. We're back in the theater today which means I get to take the long walk across the stage, down the hall, into this chair which I deeply need, for another episode of L: "Two Clowns in a Closet" R: Well, a theater, but none the less that is the title of the show. L: Yup. R: Well buttoned. Friends, before we start, we normally do a big "What's been going on with the building" update L: Yeah R: and I'm going to say this. We're going to talk briefly about some very real life stuff. It's personal stuff. We are okay, but if you can't handle that right now please check the show notes for where to fast forward to and wait for us there. We will catch up, we promise but for the- L: Absolutely R: and for the rest of you, buckle up. We're gonna talk about some things that have been going on here for us and kind of bring you up to date because I feel like we can't not talk L: Talk about it, yeah. R: Right. So for- again, first of all, we're fine. We've had a couple of deaths in the family L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Not here immediate, but immediate family, and so the last month has been absolute L: Chaos. R: Chaos. Thank you. I was looking for a nice word that didn't start with cluster. L: Yes, the word is chaos. It has been a lot of being support to other people and- R: and doing all the things that go along with- We- we are not as close as as some so we- we've been doing a lot of logistical support, emotional support, compassionate support during this time. For the friends of ours who listen, who- who have like full details, because I don't- I don't think we need to unpack it L: No, I don't think so. R: I don't think we need to unpack that. To the people who know what's going on, thank you so much for reaching out, for checking in with us and if you don't know what's up and you- you've got bandwidth for grim, reach out. If you don't, please don't take this as a call-out. We're just letting you know that this is what's- what's in the room with us and we have to be able to put it down so we can do what we normally do, which is talk to you, and we discussed back and forth- you and I talked about maybe just trying to pretend L: Pretend that it wasn't going on and R: and it didn't- L: And that seemed R: Yeah L: We don't lie to you so... R: Never. Friends we- we don't and so we decided we were going to talk a little bit about this, and one of the things I wanted to talk about on kind of a meta level is, as human beings, how absolutely bad we are at grief. L: *exhales quickly* R: I mean- the reality L: Yeah R: The- the reality is, something, you know, something bad happens- something bad will happen to everyone and I hate that for everyone. I want to be clear. Anything you hear that sounds positive in me while I'm talking about this is simply the get up and go that says "Get through this." L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Years of professional training. But what I have noticed is that everyone is bad at grief. We're all- no one is prepared for tragedy, and tragedy is happening on some level, cosmic sized, world sized, or personal life size, all the time. Everyone is- is going through something and yet we are all really bad at it and I wanted to say something about that, and there was nowhere else to put it but here. L: What did you want to say? R: So what I wanted to say was this. The times when someone in the last month- it's been about a month, month, month and a half of abject chaos. L: Yeah R: In the last month where someone has reached out and fallen all over themselves, and essentially said "That is a lot. That is bad. I am sorry. I don't know how to do this." and then proceeded to say something really, frankly asinine, it was the most important and wonderful thing that could happen, because I don't know how to handle it either. I don't know how to feel. You don't know how to feel. I feel better knowing that my friends don't know how to handle this, because that means maybe they're not going through as much bad stuff as I am and that's good. And what I wanted to say was that, and this again, is not me saying to someone who hasn't caught up or hasn't bothered saying anything- it's not me saying anything- this is talking about people I've happened to have had a conversation with and they've said "What's up?" I said "Do you really want to know?" and they said "Yeah." and I dumped on them because they could take it. See also: ring theory. They were not close to the problem, so I could talk to them. I wanted to say that all of those times where you're on the fence about whether or not you should say something, or "What is the appropriate thing to say?" it doesn't matter. Just say something. Even if you get it wrong, the gratitude I have for the friends who have literally said "I don't know how to talk about this. It hurts. I hate seeing you hurt, and I have a picture of a frog. Would you like to see it?" Something so ridiculous. L: It's been exactly what I needed. R: Yeah L: Every time. R: No matter what you've got. No matter what you've got in your pocket, it's not what I've got right now and I have been so grateful to every friend who said s- you know, who said something in addition to- "I'm so sorry for your loss" formal thing, period and then- but anyone rambled on, invariably managed to say something, whether they know it or not, that did actually mitigate some portion of the pain. L: Yeah, I definitely had the- the same experience and like, the big things- the things you know, on the- on the "What to recommend for how to reach out" It's like, one, we don't- nobody knows. So it's all best guesses, but like asking me whether I wanna hear about what's going on with you, after. That's hit really well, because- R: because if you L: most of the time the answer is yes, because I want to hear good things. R: but if you don't L: Every once in a while I'm like R: Yeah L: "You know, I can't right now." because it's ups and downs, because there's moments where everything is- R: Is good L: Is managed, and the things immediately around me are reasonably good. R: Right. L: So I'm- I'm okay and I have a little more bandwidth and then there's times where it's "Everything's awful." Um- and so, you know, the- checking in and asking that- and asking the question- coming up with something, anything. "Would you like me to x?" Whether it's "Show you this picture of a frog?", whether it's something you think might be helpful in a situation. Something you absolutely know won't be helpful in the situation, because that ends up being funny ah- is better than "If there's anything I can do, let me know." R: Well, because the- the- the problem is the things that need doing most people cannot help with. "I would like someone else to feel all my feelings for the next few months so I don't have to" Both: Not an option. R: "I would like someone to shovel all the garbage." Both: Not an option. R: What I will say that I keep hearing, is that we're right now- while we take out our pain and play with it as part of our job- L: Oh it's too soon for any of that R: It's too soon so when- yeah exactly. So when somebody comes with something to play with, there's a little part- there's a little part of oscillating away from all the- all the nauseatingly sad stuff L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and enjoying this moment because "Oh that is something I am quote unquote 'allowed to play with'" L: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, lots of that. R: And so- so yeah, I wanted to- L: and- and, same as what you said before, not a call out to any of the lovely people who said "If there's anything I can do, let me know." I know that it was a hundred percent real R: Who thought up that script? Who thought it up and taught it to all of us? L: but everyone knows it, R: Yeah L: and it's less helpful than even, you know- R: Better than silence. L: It is better than silence, but it is not better than- R: "Sucks to suck?" L: "Would you- would you- would you like, like can I send you a batch of pickles?" I'm gonna say "no", but it's funnier that you asked me something weirdly specific R: and L: and it breaks the tension of the moment R: the- L: because unloading all this- all the sad stuff, is a tense thing and we can't hold it forever. R: No. L: That's not something people can do and there's so little that can be said after a loss, because there's no undoing it. R: Yeah. L: There's no fixing it. There's mitigations for the pain and that- and- and sometimes helping with, um, whatever the logistics are but we also can't just sit in the sad, when you- when you're talking with a friend, particularly somebody who's not there in it. You can't just sit in the sad forever. R: and part of that is because, like willpower, compassion is finite. There's- there's a thing and I've given talks on it and I've- I've- I've studied it, is compassion fatigue. Which is, when you're doing care work, and your batteries run out. You can't care anymore. It's not because you don't. It's because you physically have L: You're worn out. R: You've used up the muscle. L: Yeah R: You can't, and so those breaks- and again, you're- you're- you're walking around, when you're- when you're grieving, you're walking around incapable of- of feeling okay with all of the morbid things- because one of the things I have to say, for all of the terrible things that have happened, there has been a nonstop chain of laughter at very inappropriate, not to be repeated right now things, that relate to the death, dying, grieving, and dealing with the aftermath process, because let me tell you- there's a part of me that knows how funny it is, but there's also a part of me standing next to someone who's not yet ready to laugh and then at two in the morning they are and I'm- they're- we're telling those jokes. L: Yeah R: and so again, having anything is so helpful. I think what I keep coming back to, and I know we don't live- and I know our friends who listen to us don't live- those normal, mainstream sort of lives. There's- there's no algorithm telling us who to talk to. There's no marketing saying how to reach out or which card to buy. We don't live in that world, and I'm grateful for that. Which is why I think as the clowns in the room, the encouragement to reach out even badly, is so important and I think the people who- who owned it, who said "I'm really bad at this" were the people I loved the most. I felt so close to and I felt so not alone in some really grim moments because someone was- was willing to say, you know, "Hard things are hard." Which is the other thing. The reason why there is no good thing to say is because, well obviously, there's no good thing to say and no- more importantly, we're looking for something profound in the chaos, but the reality is, "Something sad happened and hard things are hard" is the truth of the moment L: but it sounds R: trite L: Yeah R: though true. So we try- we try. We persevere, and what I will say is yes, at some point we'll be far enough, and we talk about this in the work so often, we'll be far enough from our pain that we can take it out and play with it. On this one topic it is not the time. L: No, not by a long shot. Often that is a- to be clear, that's a multi years later R: it can L: situation R: it can be L: most of the time for people. R: When I'm- when I'm teaching students what I tell them on that topic is, any major change in psychology, major life event; divorces, marriages, death, sexual orientation, major identity stuff L: *Affirmative Noise* R: It can take up to seven years for your brain to completely integrate all of this new information and experience your life through that new lens and for that reason, and I'm not saying you're you're not there yet- I'm saying you're doing it all- we're doing the work all the time. L: Yeah R: But for that reason you have to really do a lot of like deep in- interpersonal and personal work before you can take something about emotional pain and bring it into the lab to play with, way after therapy. Your- you- L: Yeah R: Or way after processing can you take it and make play with it. I remember figuring out that a relationship of mine was going to burst into flames months before it happened and I wrote out exactly what the performance would be and I put it in a drawer. L: Yeah R: And then it was another six months after that before it came out and- you know, before the inevitable- then the six months after that of healing before it came back out of the drawer and it was probably a year or two later before I could even think about beginning to do something with that emotional experience. This is significantly larger L: yeah R: but the framework is the same, and so to close up on this L: *Affirmative Noise* R: One, we're doing okay. Yeah, something bad happened. We're getting through it and we're incredibly grateful. The other part of this is talk- talk to us, yes, but also talk to each other. Talk to your friends L: Check in on people. R: That moment where you just feel like maybe- maybe- I have a rule that I came up with a long time ago. Which is that if I think of someone, I go ahead and send them a text, a message, a something. I send them something, and if someone I haven't talked to in a while I do it right away and if someone to talk to all the time I might wait a little while, you know, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: if it doesn't happen organically but my- my thought is if- if I'm drawn to someone, no one is going to make that connection for me. So do it, and- and I think- I have yet to have gone to someone I haven't spoken to in years- and the conversation may fizzle, but like "Ooo- I was thinking about you because we were telling stories and your name came up." I have yet to have had an experience where someone goes "Well that makes me really uncomfortable". No, every single human being in the world goes "I feel validated, seen, and my ego lightly stroked because someone acknowledged the fact that I had an impact on their life" Which is all any of us- any of us are looking for. L: I don't know that is all any of us R: I think L: are looking for, but I think it is R: Okay maybe it's me. Maybe it's me. L: I think it's definitely one of those very big things. R: So please, friends, know we appreciate you. L: Yes R: and again if- if- if you're new to this and it's not- and this part isn't for you, that's fine, but I know someone in your life's hurting. Go give 'em a hug. Go say hello. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Go- go write, go write that greeting card, and write it badly, and if it goes terribly wrong- I'm gonna give this to everyone who is listening- and then we can, we can, if you're done L: Yeah, yeah, yeah. R: If you do this and it goes terribly wrong and someone says "How could you reach out to me? How could you say the wrong thing?" You can tell them that I told you to do it. You can give them contact information for me and I'll talk to them. You don't have to take the heat. This is how much I want you to do this. I'm willing to take the heat if it goes bad. So now, take your social anxiety, chuck it in the bin knowing that I've got your back. Go talk to people, because we are who we got. And I'll tell you when bad- *sniffles* excuse me, when bad things happen the universe will feel very, very small and you will feel even smaller and when the world shrinks is when you need to make connections. So please do that and if you need me to back you up like- like a magic feather, like a- like a safety blanket, I got you. And that is what I have to say on the topic. I will joke more about it later when I say something inappropriate, people will roll their eyes and probably forget this part of the conversation. Do you, Liam, my dear friend L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Do you have anything else you want to add? L: Um, I don't think so. Not on that. R: Alright. With that, deep breath in. Both: *inhale* R: Deep breath out, Both: *exhale* R: and I will say the magic word that will let people know that it is time to come back if they have chosen to skip this section, butts. L: *laughs* R: It's impossible to take life seriously if you say the word "butts". L: It's R: just butts L: probably true. R: How is it? Butts. Butts butts L: Butts R: Butts, and in closing Both: Butts. R: but moving on L: aaah R: We did get one other request. We've had a request. L: What was your- what was the request? R: What was my request? My request was to talk about the request L: *laughs* R: the request, however, is not mine. One of our listeners, who I happen to know discovered us and went through the entire archive of years of this show and listened to every bit of it and I would have said "No, you didn't" except I kept getting little messages L: *laughs* R: That went "You did- " and detail, you know, whatever the detail was. Over, and over, and over. That person, who will remain nameless at this time unless they say to say who they are and then maybe I'll go back and add it to the show notes, that person said to me "I keep hearing little details about creatures that live in This Old Clown House" L: Yes R: Imaginary, strange, monsters. Can you talk about all of them in the podcast?" and I said that would be L: That would be a whole episode. R: No it would be like five. I did a little math it would be like hundreds of creatures, but the- the- the made up menagerie the make-believe menagerie of creatures that inhabit this old clown house is something that I think right now we could all use because it's absurd and we could just pick one and talk for a moment about it. L: Okay. R: Them. L: Okay. R: Okay. Do you have one that comes to mind? L: I mean, yes. I know exactly what the first one is that comes to mind, R: Oh! L: for me. R: Please. Who is the first that comes to mind for you? L: The first one that comes to mind for me is the tentacle monster who lives in our walls. R: Wattsworth! L: Wattsworth. R: Wattsworth is an incredible story. Friends, if you haven't been keeping up with us on social media, back in the early days of our arrival we discovered many, many, many, many, many electrical surprises. L: Yeah, surprises is a word for it. R: Let's say surprises for keeping ourselves free and clear. Which we have been in the course of remediating. L: Yes. R: Those are good words and I like- remediating. L: They're accurate words R: Thank you. They are. They are. Many, many switches that do not work, now work and many other switches that we don't know what they do, still a mystery but we began to attribute all of these things to an electric tech- tentacle monster that lives through the walls, which a friend of ours, another clown, Both: Named Wattsworth R: and as such, Wattsworth has become a constant source of stories, because anytime anything weird electrically happens in the building, you can look up at the ceiling and scowl at Wattsworth instead of getting mad at any number of things, including other people who did the electrical work. Wattsworth, in the early days, also bit us a couple of times- or nearly bit us a couple- L: Nearly. Bit at us R: Bit at us L: I think is a more accurate description, yes. R: Which is a fancy way of saying a wire shorted and a screwdriver was in the wrong place and no one got hurt. L: and no one got hurt. R: and then we became much safer, and in doing so Wattsworth began to Both: Trust us. R: Yes, and so Wattsworth has become sort of, not the building, but a mascot within the building and this has opened the door to many, many other creatures. We will, every episode, briefly touch on one of them from here forward. L: Alright R: Alright, and we will- we will tentatively refer to this as "the made-up menagerie" L: "The Made-Up Menagerie" R: which is a phrase I just came up with L: Alright R: a while ago and I love it, and so- L: I like it. R: You got better? L: I'm concern- I don't have a better one, I'm a little concerned with the concept that we might be um- containing R: Oh no L: These R: Oh I don't like that, you're right. L: beautiful creatures, because we're not. R: We're not. No. They're- they'-re- L: They're here because they want to be. R: The door- the door can be opened, yeah. If- if- if- if all of the electrical wiring of this building balled up, L: *laughs* R: rolled up and wanted to leave, we'd let it. L: Yes. R: and- but first we would get some flashlights, because it gets very dark in here. What I will also say, is that while we have seen the many tentacles and appendages of Wattsworth, and we know Wattsworth lives somewhere in the attic, we don't know where. L: We don't know where. R: We've never got a clear look, because they go off into the distance and into the dark and no matter where we go there's always another wire and that- those of the tentacles of Wattsworth, the electrical tentacle monster that lives in the walls of this old clown house. L: and that's been R: your menagerie moment. L: Ooo R: I don't like a- I'm bothered by the menagerie now that you've said it. L: *frustrated noise* yeah- I love the alliteration. R: Well, friends, if you have a better- if you have a better suggestion for a title for this- L: for the segment R: We have segments now. We don't have seasons anymore, but now L: But now we have segments. R: Now we have segments. We're getting grown up differently. That is true. So that- I've kept a promise today and I feel really good about it. L: Well done. R: I know I don't often do that, no, I do. L: You do. R: I do. I am- I am a creature of my word. My word is often "Aaaaa!" or "butts" but- L: Yes R: Yeah, or several other words which I would- I don't feel like doing much editing this episode so I won't be saying Both: *laugh* L: That's fair. R: Here's the thing, friends, before we decided we were going to do this episode, we picked questions, in anticipation of being on top of things. L: Oh we- we picked these well over a month and a half ago. R: I have no idea for love- L: No, I have no idea R: or coffee. To show how much, those who know me, for love or coffee, I do not know what's on those cards. I do not remember. I have no clue. Too much has happened or occurred. So, I want to get into it, L: Alright R: but I have the question, have we bantered? I feel like we've- we've we let down a heavy hammer. L: We did. We put down the heavy stuff and then we talked about R: picked up a monster L: Wattsworth. R: Yeah L: Which was fun. We have a lot of photos of Wattsworth. R: We do. We will- we will find some and L: At least- at least- R: We can link to them L: find some and link to them. Yes. R: We'll link to- of course we will. We like to share the- what's the word? L: Visuals. R: I don't know, it's a- it's an audio format. "Sharing the visuals" seems intense, but I- in this case I do. L: Yes. R: I do want to. I also want to touch on something else. I remember a good- I'm doing good things. L: You're doing good things? R: In my head L: Okay R: Yeah, L: Okay, good things! R: Whenever I get sad, I think about good things. Um- we'll come up with a few good things. The Filthy Human Hands license. L: Oh my gosh, has that been since the last episode? R: Correct L: Wow. R: Okay. So, to- to recap, and we may- we may have talked about it but I don't think we got all the way into it. We have a mural that we are in the middle of, obviously it is been slowed down a little bit, but I'm- we are sitting next to the mural right now it looks- L: So many colors. R: So many colors, three quarters of the way or more done and it looks fantastic, but again with all the chaos of the moment it's been on pause, but in the making of the mural, which is a collage, we had to make a bunch of art prints and then tear up the prints and right before we tore them up we had that moment where we didn't want to hurt a beautiful thing. Liam fixed this by being the first one to tear one up, but before Liam did, we we scanned all two hundred and la la la la la L: Fifteen? R: I don't remember. L: two hundred thirty? R: Something. L: I don't remember. R: It's gone. Over two hundred were scanned and we were going to put them, as we do with many things, under the creative commons however L: We got an anti-AI feeling that we R: we leaned L: wanted to express. R: We wanted to express our absolute hatred of all things slop and so, since we envisioned this thing with our- our messy human brains, and- and put them into our silly human hearts to- to power our filthy human hands, that's what we named the license and we wrote a license which we then put under itself so other people can use it, which basically says do what you want, give us credit for the license, and L: I think there's give us credit for the- the- the work as well R: Well- the person who created the work, L: Yes R: I don't get credit for other- I'm saying other people can use the license. L: Oh yeah, of course. R: We're gonna link to it, but the point is, it's a license that basically says *blows a big wet raspberry* to all things artificial intelligence. It is broadly written to include all of our friends who are human, or are- identify as something other than human, but are not LLM's. L: Yes R: And so, we did it. We wrote a license, we put it out there, and some friends started using it. And it's gone a little- L: That- that's been really fun. R: We are very excited, and if you look at it and you decide to use it, please tell us because we're keeping a list of projects discovered in the wild, of people using this license and it's just it's neat to see, more than anything, that we made something in the midst of a bunch of silly feelings and making stuff and we were playing with color because it was winter and depressing, we had no idea how stressful it was going to get in life, but we made this thing and other people felt inspired because everyone was so frustrated. People felt inspired to be creative, and- and it might have been some code, it might have been some music, it might have been a doodle, but people started making stuff, just so they could say, "Filthy Human Hands license" and I thought "Everything I'm about is that" L: Yeah. R: We made a thing, we encourage people to play with it, they did and now we get to cheer for them. So please, check out the link that's in the show notes for the Filthy Human Hands license. Stick an appropriate finger in the direction of all of technology that you hate and make something ridiculous. That's my hope. L: I am going to chime in with the caveat of, realize it's a license made by a couple of clowns R: We're not lawyers. We're not clowns. L: We are not lawyers. R: Or, we are clowns. We're not lawyers. Are a lawyer clowns? L: No. R: We're not clown lawyers, I know that. I've- I've met one. L: Nope, so, keep that in mind. R: It is made up, like all licenses. L: but it is just as made up as any other license so, I still say go run, run and play with it I just want to make clear what it is we've put out there. R: D- Dear- dear boy, take my hand. Give me- give me your hand. I'm going to take- Friends, I'm gonna fix this. Look me in the eyes. Now, L: Yes. R: Do you think anyone listening thinks for a minute that we are responsible adults capable of writing legal documentation? L: Yes. R: Who, and how do we make them stop believing that as quickly as possible. That's why I'm holding your hand, I got nervous. L: We- we just spoke about the fact that the electrical tech- the electrical tentacle monster in the walls has begun to trust us. R: Oh I see, so due to the theme of trust it might be possible that other people would be confused? L: Yes. R: Okay, now it makes sense. Please take the advice of legal counsel, not clowns or electrical tentacle monsters that live in the walls of clown schools. I think that's good life advice. L: Yes. R: Lots of people seem to disagree with me though *laughs* So I see your point. L: So that's- that's- that's where I am with that. I do strongly encourage people to play with the license. R: I hope so, you co-wrote it. L: Yeah it's, it's not me saying "Don't do it". Absolutely do. Do your own homework on legalities. R: Wow, you got to be the grownup. L: I hate it. R: I was like go be- go be playful, go make beautiful things, you're like "Talk to a lawyer" L: *laughs* R: I'm like "No! Don't. Don't." L: I didn't say "Talk to a lawyer". I said "We're not lawyers". R: I said "We are not legal counsel, we are" L: Here. R: Clowns. Yeah, we're here L: *laughs* R: and- and so are you, and you know what? This is good. I feel L: Yes, I think so too. R: I think I needed this, more than anything. So thank you. Once again, our friends showed up, they didn't know what to say, so they sat there quietly and now here we are having a good time. L: Yes. R: I keep saying, it works. More proof L: Yes. R: in the pudding. Well, the podcasting. L: The pod- yeah. R: The podding. "More proof in the podding" that's our slogan, yeah. L: That's the slogan, oh yeah, because slogans- R: You've forgotten, you forgot we have L: Was also a segment. R: No, no, we got a slogan. See? We've got a slogan. We come up with one, "The proofs in the podding." That's- that- that there? That there is marketing. That's what that is. L: Yuuuuck. R: Other people are gonna say it, and we're gonna L: yeah R: deny that we ever did, L: *laughs* R: and- and then when people say they heard it here, we're gonna- I'm out of ideas. L: We're not R: We're going to get puppets, and the puppets will deny that we said it. They'll say they said it, and then we get to credit puppets. L: Now, I don't dislike the idea of crediting puppets, however, I also don't like lying to these people. R: I don't lie to these people. L: We talked about this at the very beginning. R: I told them our scheme already. They're in on it! L: *laughs* R: Our friends are with us, they're- they're among us. One might say they're one of us. Their shoes are little small, but we're working on it. L: Mine got bigger. R: What? L: My shoes. R: They did. Explain, explain, explain. L: A very silly recent thing is, I outgrew my shoes. Which is a bizarre experience to have in your thirties. R: Can't imagine why. L: But um, yes a combination of ah- switching to testosterone and having- wearing barefoot style shoes or going around barefoot most of the time, R: Your feet just spread L: My feet just got bigger. R: I think you're just becoming a better clown. It's just, over time L: Probably, yeah R: they just spread out and eventually you'll need the- the shoes like I've got. L: Yeah, so- so my entire wardrobe of shoes now don't really fit right. R: We're gonna find those shoes a good home. L: We will. R: It'll be a L: The clown shoes probably still fit though, I haven't tried. *laughs* R: Oh, we haven't. I don't know- I don't know. I haven't tried your shoes on either. You know they always say "You don't know someone till you walk a mile in their shoes"? I haven't walked a mile in your shoes. L: Probably shouldn't. R: In your shoes? L: They have a heal R: They'll pinch- yeah, they have a heel, hurts my back. L: Yeah R: Alright. Sounds good. How did we get on shoes? You confuse me. I've been bamboozled. L: You brought them up. I don't remember how. R: I'm going to sneeze, *sniffs* and it's gonna change the topic. L: Okay *long silence* R: My nose seems to have changed it's mind L: *laughs* Alright. R: Friends, I discovered the superpower a couple of years ago, where I get- I was backstage at a show and there was an act on stage and we were amping up, because we were gonna come running out and I suddenly, because it was a dusty old theater, as theaters always are- I suddenly was overtaken by the need to sneeze and I had the thought "What if you just don't?" and I realised I had managed to talk myself out of it and the minute I did that, I realised that sometimes I can now, and you can hear, I'm a little congest- *sniffs* a little congested but no sneeze now. It's the weirdest thing! L: How does it feel? R: Like it changed the subject. L: Well done. R: I'm good. I mean, I'm not electrical tentacle monster who lives in the walls of a clown school, or a clown puppet lawyer, but I'm- I'm pretty good. L: It's true. R: I got the sneeze thing on my side. L: Well, do you think you're ready to answer a question? R: About what? L: I don't know. I haven't looked at it yet. R: So you're just like walking around like a questions pimp and you don't even know what you got? L: I've got a stack of cards that I picked out R: I'm mad that we already picked a slogan because L: -ages ago. R: I'm mad that we already picked a slogan because "What are you, some kind of questions pimp?" may have been a better slogan but we've already locked it in. We're done. L: Yup R: We're done locking it in. Friends, what do you think? *pause* R: I'll take your silence as a strong stern "Get on with it" L: Alright then. R: Are- wait. Just like that? L: How else. R: I don't know I literally- L: *coughs* R: That wasn't me. I want it on record. That wasn't me. L: No, that was me. R: How is it that I needed to sneeze and then you coughed? L: I don't know. R: Ventriloquism. One of my many skills. I learned it from the puppet lawyer. *silence* R: You all right? L: Did you now? R: I did. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it until it's not funny and I know you're okay. L: I'm okay. R: All right. L: I think the air is just dry. R: The air is dry and a little smoky, like someone made s'mores outside and then we left a window open. Not our best plan. L: You know, R: It's okay. L: It's okay. R: We've got a little smokiness. Gives me that red look in my eyes. What were we talking about? Sneezing. Sneezing. L: We were talking about sneezing. R: Questions. L: and before that we were talking about shoes. R: Questions. L: Questions, yes. R: What about them? L: I have some. R: So do I. L: but- I have ones that were sent in that we wrote down- R: Oh, by friends. L: for this R: by friends L: for this episode. R: You know why I'm- I'm interested though. L: Why you're interested in what? R: Well, that's- that's the interesting thing, isn't it? I wanted to get into a little banter, because I know we have had people tell us to banter but I- L: But I feel like we already have bantered R: Will ya let me finish? L: Of course. R: Alright. I feel like, we have a little banter and that's important L: Yes. R: I was trying to build a sentence here. Do you mind? L: Of course. R: You're interrupting. L: I'm not. R: You were. I'm gonna go again. L: Okay. R: Alright *short pause* R: Now I L: You were saying? R: I was- I knew you were gonna do it, too. We got an email, from a listener, L: Yeah? R: Who said they were laughing out loud at our interrupting, when I interrupted you. L: Oh well. R: Yes, so now we get to find out whether or not you're funny, because you interrupted. L: I suppose we do. R: Rude L: *snorts* R: What are you laughing about? I forgot what we were doing. Questions. L: Questions! R: The questions. Go ahead. L: Alright. R: Are you going to read the first one? L: I was going to read the first one. R: Wi- the one right here? On the card? L: Yes R: Okay. L: I can't read it if you take them from me. R: I was checking to- I was trying to use the props. That's what they taught me in theater school. No that was "Don't touch the props, you fool." L: They ah- R: "Go stand in the corner." Sorry, I forgot. L: Alright. R: Alright. L: Are you ready for the first question? R: What? L: Are you ready for the first question? R: Yes, I am L: Good. R: Ready for the first question, on this episode of the podcast, L: Yes R: Which you don't need to say- because we already said it L: we've already done that bit, yes. R: yeah. But if we did L: We did. R: But if we did again, it would be called- don't, 'cause will end. L: You're right, because that is at the end. R: That's how we do it, see? I remember the protocol. I was taking notes. L: I'm glad. R: I didn't bring them, but I did take a few. L: But you took them. R: I took them. Mostly from other people, who said "Stop talking and let that curly haired kid get onto the question reading." L: Alright R: but also we did get- we did get email which I adored, and I may print out and frame, which said "I was- I was listening to the interruptions and rolling" because I always worry that we're being silly but it's L: Oh, we're definitely being silly R: but- but apparently that is a silliness of which friends of ours, who listen to this, approve. L: I love that. R: That's a hill I'm willing to sit on and eat cookies. L: That sounds like a time. R: Why don't we say that more? L: I don't know. R: I just ooh, we should say it more. L: Okay. R: That's a hill I'm gonna sit on and eat cookies. L: I'm worried about all this cookie eating. R: Why? L: Because you don't like sugar. R: I'm not a sugar fan, I know I'm using it coloqu- I will sit on that hill and drink coffee. L: There you go R: See? People believe that. L: That I believe, yeah. R: Yeah, now you believe. Alright, I'm glad you finally have discovered your faith. L: In in R: cof- me drinking L: In your relationship with coffee? Yes. R: Yeah, we're very happy together, so don't- don't judge. L: Okay R: Alright. Are you ready to read these? L: I am. Are you ready R: You've L: to answer? R: You've interrupted me interrupting you a few times. I want to point that out. L: I don't even know who's interrupting who anymore. R: Okay. Hold it, you can't Ro-sham-bo on the radio. *four slaps in succession* R: I won. Both: *laugh* R: Son of a gun. L: Alright then. R: Alright L: "What- R: Hang on. If I won, why are you reading the question? L: because you get to answer first, because you won. R: Oh, what an honor. I accept. Go ahead and read that question. L: All right. R: Okay. L: "What is something you've always wanted to try but haven't yet?" R: Oh, "What is something I've always wanted to try but haven't yet?" First of all, love the "yet" because it implies there's still the opportunity. Something I haven't tried- I- the very first thing that legitimately comes to my mind because we're sitting in this theater which is under construction, L: *Affirmative Noise* R: is to do something in here. L: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. R: That is like, the first thing. I haven't done that. I've done a lot of things in here. I've trained. I've worked out. I've- I've done workshopping but I've not- not performed here. That is something that I have- L: Oh definitely. R: I haven't done yet. L: But you haven't always wanted to do that. R: I haven't always yeah, exactly, so it's kind of a- kind of thing. Um, I have impulse control and I often go do things that I want to do. So, *laughs* this one, I have done a lot of stuff and therefore L: You have impulse control, or you have no impulse control and therefor? R: I have impulse control. I have an impulse, and I control it towards the thing I thought about to do. That's what they mean when they say that. Isn't it? No? L: *Unsure noise* I'm not sure. R: Okay, well the point is I've done a lot of stuff as a result. Whenever I make a- a lot of people make funny comments they go "Oh, I did this thing and this thing happened" and anytime I do one of those and it sounds like a joke, it's probably a legitimately true story. L: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. R: That's the first- to understand me as a person- that's a and I'm not bragging about my life, I'm saying that's a weird quirk of how I talk, but "something I have always wanted to do" *pondering noise* "something I have always wanted to do" L: I mean it is true that you've wanted to perform here since you saw the place, so it's not- it's not exactly eh- I'm not trying to poke holes in your answer. R: I didn't ask you to- to back me up. I mean, it's fine, I'm under a bus. I get it. It's hard. I think, *sigh* I'm on the morbid side here L: Okay R: but there are great clown teachers who I've never got to- to study with before they passed L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and I think it would have been interesting to have found out what they were- because I've- I've studied with their students L: Yes. R: So, what would it have been like to have been in the room with them? And what would have been like to have that opportunity to- to connect with- So that's one thing, that's something that comes to mind and I feel like I've got to say something that isn't about all of this. Something that I- I've wanted- I've wanted to write, but I've sat with plenty of time to write a book and haven't written it. So I don't know if that's it's not ready yet or it doesn't exist. So there's there's that. And I- I don't know if that's because I want to be an author, I want that- that aesthetic? I have lots of friends who are authors who would tell me to get stuffed right now. L: Oh yeah. R: If they happen to be listening they'll tell me to get stuffed but I- I think that's- that's a great thing. Most of the time I like- I'm a simple person. I get a simple idea, I- I do it. You know? L: *noncommittal noise* R: Whether it's to sculpt or learn something, um- I've- I've performed a lot and I know there was a time I would have been like "The thing I want to do is go and perform in such and such", you know, name of venue, name a show that I hadn't happened have done but it doesn't feel like that's what's important to me right now which L: I mean, that is arguably what you said. R: Well yeah, because it's here. L: But this event R: But yeah because L: But this thing R: the energy- the energy is here and I think L: yeah R: I think what that's really screaming about is the fact that, with no complaining, my energies have recently been diverted and I'm trying to get refocused on- L: yeah, yeah. R: on a rhythm. So I think- I think getting to have a normal day is something I haven't had but that's always wanted to do. Ah- I feel like I'm rambling all over and I may- Have I mulliganed? Have I stuffed it or have I answered? L: I don't know. I think- I think those are reasonable answers. R: Because I mean, I know everyone's waiting for me "Well I've never" because I have, in a lot of cases. Maybe I lack imagination. I would like to be someone with more imagination. I don't know. Um, I don't want to jump out of an airplane. L: That's good to know. R: I- it's important to know what ya- I- I got a heights thing. I don't want to be that person. Um- yeah I think- I think I've given the answers. L: That works. R: I feel- I feel like I've- I feel like I've failed, my friends, and I'm- I'm having feelings about it. Quick, tell me something you've always wanted to do but haven't done yet. L: Oh, I'm- I'm stuck still going, I think that I have some of the same problems with this question that you do. Of- R: You have no impulse control? L: I- R: Oh, I said it the other way this time. L: Yeah. R: Fascinating L: I've done things, um- R: You've done stuff. Terrible stuff you can't talk about. L: No, but you know, because the- the question to me evokes the like, "What was- what did child-you want to do that you still haven't done?" You've made a face. R: I mean, I'm- I realised something I haven't done but if I say it it might sound like I've got- I've got friends who are working on stuff and it may be just that I want to go work with them. L: Ah, do you wanna share? R: No, I want you to answer your question. I'll come back to it. L: Okay. R: I'll come back to it. L: Um- but now that we've read the question I remember when we picked these out and um- that something that I think I tried to do as a kid, but I don't know if I ever successfully did as a kid, but I did for my birthday this past April, was build a big marble run R: Out of garbage L: out of cardboard R: Out of garbage L: yeah, out of cardboard because I think as a kid I often did the thing where you start collecting all of the paper tubes. All of the like, toilet paper rolls, inner tu- inside tubes or the ones from paper towel R: To run the marbles through L: So that you can run the marbles through- R: Right L: through all of them, because cut those in half and you have a lot of marble track. Um- eventually that becomes rather a pile, and if you don't act on it eventually somebody goes "You gotta get rid of all the cardboard" R: and then you don't build your maze. L: and you don't build it. Um- but I've gotten better at acting on my impulses ah- in a quicker time frame. So, I collected a bunch of cardboard, we had a lot of cardboard and R: it is a renewable resource here as we continue to unpack and pack and unpack things L: and I did something absolutely silly just for the fun of it. R: You took over the stage. L: I did. I took over the stage and I filled, not all of it, but a good- a good chunk of it. R: A good five by seven carpet's worth L: with- with the multitrack R: You have video. L: I do. I haven't clipped it together into something that's- that's R: Well now- now I'm- I'm calling you out. You did a birthday marble run L: I did. R: and I'm going to say to you, share the silliness with people. L: It is on the list. It just hasn't happened yet. R: Okay. L: Um, but technically because I just did it, R: You've knocked this item off. L: It's not- it's not something that- that answers the question. R: So did it come to mind when you pick the question and that's what prompted you to do it? L: No I had- I think I had just done it R: Oh L: When we picked the questions. R: Oh. So you had L: So it was like "oh" R: You've done that. L: Or I realized it after, but it wasn't what prompted me. I did definitely have the connecting thought at some point and I don't remember exactly when, but it wasn't the thing that made me go "Oh! Thing I've always wanted to do, I'll do it for my birthday." um- and I think some of the things that's hard about things you've always wanted to do or always wanted to try R: You change over time. L: Is one, you change over time, and so things that occurred to you later in life are likely, not always, likely to be things you have more interest in R: or way less L: pursuing then the thing that five-year-old you, or ten-year-old you, or fifteen-year-old you wanted to do. Um- and I don't remember a lot of what kid me wanted to do that wasn't things that I subsequently went and did. R: When you're- when you're eight and you say to people you want to be Darth Vader or Batman, you know, it- as you get older you realize those aren't as interesting as you thought they were. L: There's that R: Or feasible, but L: yeah R: that's a secondary consideration. L: So it's um- I think that it's a- it's a great question and I agree that I love that it's a yet because I think I like that I don't have a good answer to this question because of why I don't have a good answer to it R: because you keep doing stuff. L: which is that when there's something I think will be interesting to do or interesting to try I will make an effort to find a way to try that thing. It's not always possible and it's definitely not always possible on a finite timescale. R: No L: You know, like you can't necessarily go "Oh, here's this thing" R: and meanwhile life is happening L: I think I'd like to do. I'll do it next month. Maybe, maybe you will but I think that it's also um- you know, I've had plenty of things where it was like "I want to do that, um- so I made a decision to do it" for example the first time I saw somebody on a Cyr wheel, I went "I want to do that" R: check the show notes, we will explain what that is. L: Circus equipment. ah- R: Well yeah. L: I said- I said "I wanna do that" I don't remember if that was the same day I got on a Cyr wheel. R: I think it was. L: because we had an event R: yeah I think L: where people were allowed to- where people were encouraged to come up and talk to people who were playing with circus props and toys and equipment and I was allowed to try it. Promptly went- promptly went "One, I'm very short and this is the wrong size for me R: and you hadn't started doing handstands yet, you were weak. L: and two, I need to get so much stronger to be able to do this." R: Yeah, you didn't have shoulders. L: And it was why I started handstands. R: I now you love handstands and- and- acro and things. L: and I love handstands and I love acro. I started doing so many things because of that and I do have a Cyr wheel. Um- it's R: In a box somewhere over there. L: It's in a box, over there, because it requires a fair amount of space in which to do it and between surgery, injury and having space to do it, hasn't been a thing I've gotten back into yet R: but it's a yet. L: But I have started doing it. R: Well go on record with that. That you- you wanna- you want to be a human penny. L: Yes, and go spin! R: I will say, it's- it's funny. I have always liked steep learning curves. L: yeah. R: Like, I like hard things that are- like, if I run my- I have to run myself headfirst into a wall and fail a lot to do it because what happens is, if it's easy at first and then gets harder, those are the things that don't really interest me, but something that's really, really hard I'm like "I wanna learn that" and then I learn it and I go do something else and I think- I don't- I don't explore a lot within it L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So I have a lot of, like, a lot of the skills I've picked up are these incredibly diverse, weird, hard things that don't all connect together and- and- and it's- it's funny because when I go looking for like "What's the next one I want to do?" because I remember, you know, in my thirties I got into juggling, I hadn't yet. Um- L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Forties was unicycle and then into acrobatics and by fifty I was doing handstands L: Yup R: and it was one of those things where- and- and recovering from COVID. It was one of those things where I go looking- I don't care about most of the stuff- I'm- I'm happy to play along. I'm really, I- one of my favorite things is to be part of the ensemble that's making weird stuff happen but very rarely do I go "That thing over there that's going to take me years of study to be able to do, I'm gonna go learn that." but when I do I go all in on it L: Yeah R: It just- it's very rare that something, and this why this question is hard for me, it's because it's very rare that something grabs me but when it does you would know about it because I wouldn't be doing anything else. L: Yeah R: So arguably right now it's like working on my handstand and getting past an injury, a trauma related injury has been a hyperfocus physically. Learning, you know, tech skills. Doing all this art and restoration stuff and I think one of the things I'm enjoying is giving myself permission to not be directly- I don't want to say main character or star but the person who's forcing energy to happen. I encourage a lot. I enable a lot, but in previous incarnations of this journey it was always my job to come up with what's next. L: Yeah R: and I'm kind of really enjoying just being a part of the ride as opposed to being, you know, the ride. That sounded terrible when I said it L: That was sure a set of words you- s- you- you chose. R: We're gonna edit those out and no one will ever hear them. Next question. L: I R: You got a final thought? L: I do, because you had a thought- that you then said you'd come back to R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and then I think you dodged it. R: What was the thought? L: because there was a thing that you realized that you wanted to do and then you weren't sure whether it was just you wanting to go play with friends. R: Which thing? L: I don't know because you didn't say. R: Oh I wasn't specific. Wait, which time? L: Earlier when I was answering the question. R: Oooo. Oh! Yeah. I have done recordings of silly voice stuff for people for years, like our- or for us L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I've never gotten to be a part of a- a proper radio drama or L: Oooooo. R: an audio- or an audio character. I'm not um- L: Ah, okay R: Obviously getting on stage of super fun and easy, but I've never gotten to do that. I have lots of friends who are working on things like animation and I've got lots of friends that are working on puppetry stuff and like I haven't gotten to do one of those. It's a weird thing to want because it's like "I would like to sit in a sound booth like I am right now" but I think it would be L: But different! R: But different! I think it would be fun to be part of someone else's project. I often, like I said, historically have had to be the engine that made things happen I really enjoy collaborating and I'm really enjoying the opportunities that have come up, especially here, where everything no- no project is small enough to do by yourself. L: Yeah R: So everything has been collaborative and I've- I've actually really enjoyed it. It does not feel like stardom, but it does feel fun and I like that more. L: Fantastic. R: All right. I wasn't handing you my glasses, I was gesturing with them. L: You gestured all the way up to my hand with your glasses though. R: Oh please. It's a small, intimate table for the three of us. You, me and all of our friends. L: Yes R: I like how "all of our friends" is like a hyphenated word. Yes. I leaned over to see if anything to whisper in my ear. I did. L: He did. R: I did. Alright, are you ready for a question? L: I am ready for a question. What you got? R: "What brought you to the performing arts in the first place?" L: Oh, the performing arts as a whole? um- my R: That's "as" not "is" let people- in case someone judges. L: Yes. As a whole, that'd be my family. Um- I've got family who have been performers on both sides of my family and I was encouraged from where I was- when I was very, very, small to sing and to dance and I was in dance class by the time I was five. Um- I was playing instruments in elementary school. I did the- did the whole- that whole ride. Um- R: What made you stick with it? L: Um- well part of it is that I love it. Um- and I think I've talked about a lot of the um- the route where as I wrapped up college I found myself doing some juggling and some flow arts and meeting some new friends and learning more of that and then eventually heading down to Texas and ending up with the Circus Freaks. Um- you know, I think performance is one of those things where if it is a thing you do, it is a thing you do. Um- Which I think is similar to what a lot of the writer friends of ours would have been saying to you, when you were saying "I R: "How can you not? Yeah" L: like the idea of being an author." It's like- uh- if you- if you are, you'd be doing it. um- R: It's funny, once you make the jump and do the work to get rid of stage fright, to- to learn how to be present, it's so natural that- that obviously the answer is you'll go do that. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: That you don't think about the fact that yeah, it's not everyone. L: Oh yeah. R: Especially when you're in a room full of theatre people. You go "Oh yeah, we all do" L: "Clearly everybody" but no, it's not and that's okay. Otherwise there'd be no audiences. Um- and to be clear, because I feel that- I'm suddenly at that moment where like "Oh this starts sounding like that whole thing where artists are these big special people" R: "Oh no." L: "Who have things that other people don't have" R: Not I. L: No. I think that there's- there's drives towards doing things and I think sometimes you don't discover those until you try the thing R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and sometimes that's you try a thing and discover that it terrifies you but for some reason you feel compelled to go back and do it again and so have to get past things like stage fright or like- and then you end up in those places. So I think anybody can, but it is interesting to R: a calling L: remember that not everybody does. R: It's a calling. Everyone has told me who I- I've studied clown with or talk to- or talked to clowns, they say it's calling. You don't choose it and I think it's true of a lot of things that are hard. There has to be something that pulls you towards it. L: Yeah, otherwise you wouldn't do it. R: It, well, like any endeavor, L: Yeah R: you're putting yourself out there in a particular way and it's- it's a lot. I also think it's what drives that- that yet because if the drive's in you, you will do it. You'll find some way to do it. I know I was, until I got into performance initially I was, you know, intolerably overacting in my own life until I realised I could do that, you know, professionally and then come over here and sit down and relax for a minute *laughs* and I became a much- L: Just enjoy your coffee. R: Well I became a much more boring person. That's what I tell everybody. It's- the minute I realised I could separate me from all of that, I could be a much more sedate person because there was an outlet for all that. L: Yeah R: and that's a- that's a weird phenomenon. L: So I think that's- that's my answer. What brought me to performing arts was- was my family. R: They forced you into it. L: They encouraged. R: Okay, good way to put it. L: They didn't force me into anything. R: You gave me this look like "Shut up, shut up!- L: No! I- R: They might listen" L: One, they might listen R: You don't know. L: but two, I was encouraged. I was absolutely not pressured into performance, because that was absolutely not necessary. Now pressured into practicing? R: That L: Was absolutely required because I was R: yeah and we thank you. We thank you because you learned. L: not gonna do that on my own when I was young. R: Well you've since developed discipline. I've seen you both, play music well and I've seen you train when you choose to focus in and actually train something it gets done. L: It's true. R: So good for you. L: So, what about you? "What brought you to the performing arts- R: "The performing arts- L: in the first place?" R: in the first place." I was thinking about this. I was- I was in a theater magnet program for like one year in like, fifth grade and we did a lot of puppetry and I liked that and I think I got there because I acted out so much that they weren't sure what was my deal L: *laughs* R: So they thought "Well, let's put 'm with theater kids and- and see how that goes" and they determined that I was too weird even for them and that was fine but I had a lot of fun and I enjoyed it and I realised that I have always enjoyed theater on a technical level. I wasn't drawn to being an actor, my ability to memorize- it always seemed fake for lack of a better word. I mean it's all make believe, it's all made up but there was something it didn't feel- detach and yet I would watch movies obsessively and look at the blocking and look at how people were putting things together and look at character motivations. So I was constantly- I watched a movie and I would tear it apart both for story but also "How was the character built" and I was very interested in characters. Um- So, I always had that drive. Ah- I ended up getting dragged into an improv class at one point. That was a ton of fun and I- I stopped doing things like tabletop roleplay that point because I realised that was way more fun. Ah- and then I think my big gateway into performing performing L: *Affirmative Noise* R: After doing, you know, little things here and there. Mostly I was, again, I was a visual and sculptural artist for the decades. L: Yeah R: and I got into this comparatively late. Um I was learning to juggle at home. I was learning contact juggling. I got- I got interested in obsessed with contact juggling, crystal sphere manipulation and I got- I got so into it and I wanted to do something with it and I got my status- I was learning low and slow and by myself and I found out that there was a circus arts meetup somewhere near me in a park, and I went "Ooo, that's intimidating, but I'm gonna go anyway." Then I got there and everybody was half my age except for the people who were ten years older than me who were really there because they loved the play, and I found out, you know, I was both pretty good and terrible. I learned a lot. I had fun. I made a couple of friends and that was the gateway into- flow arts was the gateway into circus arts and then what happened was I met some jugglers and they started teaching me and encouraging me to actually do, like, pass juggling and toss juggling. I found out I really love social passing. It's good. It's fun. For me, it took a lot of work to get there, again steep learning curve, big encouragement L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but then I was really interested in it and I wasn't very good but I was really into it and it was social you know? L: You encouraged me on that. R: Yeah, because it's fun. L: Yes it's tons of fun. R: We had a bunch of- we had a bunch of jugglers at the time so I was like "Come join the- the band of fools" L: and I was like "I'm not good" R: and now you are. So, you can learn it. L: Yep. R: So we did that and then along- along the way, we kept getting asked "Would you come-" and we weren't performers at that point. It was like "Would you come and do a- a demo", "Would you be-" and we created a demo team for our juggling club and we'd go and show someone and they'd be like "We'd like to give- we'd like to thank you for this- this demo" and- and all the way through, we started trying to- we realised we were "performing" bunny quotes, but we weren't performing. We didn't know what we were doing. L: Yeah R: and we started going "Well, we're gonna have to figure that out" and then we we got offered a professional opportunity and we had to put together a performing company and everybody decided I was in charge and I think that's because I looked like a grown-up. Yeah. Everybody- there's a game called "Nose Goes" and where I said "Someone's gonna have to be in charge", everybody put their finger on their nose, and I didn't know what the game meant but the last person is- to put their finger on their nose has to usually go- L: Has to do the dishes? R: Has to do the dishes, or in this case, run a circus. That is literally how I became the director of the Circus Freaks and so with that, we have this thing. Okay, now we're performing but we didn't know what we were doing and I started taking a couple of workshops and then one day there was a performer in our company, she was a hula hooper, and she walked up to me and said "I've got an idea" and we were like, very into like, "we're doing flow arts", it's very technical, trying to be a group of people moving and- yeah all that. I said "Okay, what is it? What is it?" she's like "I'm going to build a living doll character. A windup doll." I said "Oh, and then- then hula hoop!", "No", I said "Then what will you do?" and she said "Be a living doll that will be the delight of children" and I was- and I, in my myopic view didn't know what that really meant and I was like "I dunno, okay." and that was the moment that opened the door to the concept of characters within our performing arts and I got very interested in combining circus arts and circus skills with character performance. I later found out this is a rarefied niche area that is pretty much where clowns live. L: Yup. R: Clowns and Masks. That's where they live. All through that I was researching and the other thing that drew- that draws me to it is we get to be and do things that you don't get to do in a normal day. I think the thing is, I'm always, my whole life, I'm looking for the weird people. Whether they're occultists, computer hackers, any kind of person who thinks outside the box, I just wanna, like "Oh you're really weird and open-minded. I want to be near that." and then you find out "Oh no, they're a subculture under themselves and yes they're very open-minded but they're not that weird" so you go and look at the next weird group, and you go over there and what- L: because at the end of the day everybody's people. R: Everybody's peo- L: *laughs* R: Exactly. Human. None of this- none of this is negative and I delighted in making friends in all kinds of really weird, strange, wonderful places. None of which are particularly normal, and I think one of the things that happened is I took a clown workshop that I stumbled into because some- a clown spotted me and said and- and I've talked about that, said "Come and- come and take a workshop" and I realised one day, I was like "I don't like half the people in this room, but they're my people" L: Yeah R: and I- I was like "Yeah this is- this is the core of what I'm talking about." It's an emotional connection. It's an idea of becoming things and- and I always think about something, there's a very famous mime named Tony Montanaro, and Tony said become the person for whom the action is normal and it will then be graceful. L: Yeah R: and so this idea, you get to become things and I- and I've had so many experiences where I, the schlubby creature sitting in this chair, can't do certain things. Whether it's because of inability, or social anxiety, or lack of something and whatever that part of me is that can become things can become someone who so effortlessly can that I am addicted to that idea. I know I can't be that all the time, because that's how reality works L: Yep R: but I adore the- what the gateway for me is getting to become, for a little while, someone else and then learning other people and learning that. So that drive of always wanting to make those connections and it always comes back to, and I was really misanthropic when I started all this. I was really grumpy about it, because it was like "Ugh, people" and then I go around people L: *chuckles* R: and I realise now, No people are awesome. I had to work on me. So I think the gateway drug for me was the people. Not the shiny "Look at them on stage being so on stage" but people backstage getting together and going "We're going to make a thing happen." They have a secret and then they give it all away. I just thought that was really cool. L: Yeah R: So I think that's, for me, that's where it always stems from. L: Alright R: Bit of a ramble, but we got there. I'm old so I've got a bit of a ramble L: Yeah, that's alright. R: a bit of a ramble on me. L: Alright. R: Oh, there's was another question isn't there? L: There's another question. R: The back to back'll getcha. If you- if you burn yourself out, you got- you gotta keep some L: You gotta pace yourself. R: I'm telling you. I give it all away. There's nothing left. I'll have to make more. L: Yep. You ready for the question? R: I was not born ready but during my life of experience and after many failures and choosing to get back up despite them, sometimes because of my study of aikido and sometimes because that Chumbawamba one song really gets me, I have become up again and therefore ready. L: Alright. "I'd love to hear your thoughts on what I will jokingly call "distributed clowning" or developing connections and comedic timing with video chat R: Oh. L: and a seven second delay. How is it different than connecting with people in real life and has being online more than we all used to be had any pleasant surprise-" sorry "any pleasant lessons or surprises?" R: Oh frick. This is a can of worms. No way to talk about this without talking about Circus in Place, which has been on hiatus for a little while, mostly because we've been focusing on- on skill work here. Circus in Place was, early days of the pan- of the pandemic which rages on, we started doing video chats for- I think honestly our own mental health and accidentally built a community. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Many, many friends who listen know what I'm talking about L: Yeah R: but we would we would open up and literally train in front of people and be silly, and at first it was very, very performative and then we we cut the crap and we just enjoyed people's company. During the before we cut the crap period L: Yes R: There was a lot of time where we were really trying, because we didn't know how long we'd be there, so we were keeping our skills sharp and we were doing bits and we were trying stuff and getting our timing down, and there was nothing that was more of a beating on my timing than learning to just pleasantly hold and wait that seven seconds or so and go "Oh god" and in the backyard your going "Oh no, it wasn't funny" and then someone erupts with laughter and you realize "Oh I didn't notice there actually genuinely is this delay that you don't think about going on" and it forced us, because we were being so actively doing those things, I became very aware of it and I started paying attention to it. The number one teaching note I have had my entire career, that I've given other people was "Slow the f*ck down". I'll be beeping once apparently. L: *chuckles* R: I'd give this note. Um- I literally would get calls from students saying "Hey, we're backstage and we remembered what you told us!" I'd be like "Hang up your phone and pay attention, but also yeah do that." and I remember thinking while we were going through this video thing "Wow" because it's one thing to perform for a camera. It's exhausting because you have to imagine an audience and project through and hope that they're L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and somehow this doesn't have that. I'm- in part because I'm talking to you, Liam, in part because friends, I know you're listening. L: Oh yeah. R: You keep telling me, so I don't worry about it and I just trust that you're keeping up, but with video because you see a face and you're reading all the information on, you can't help it. When it's blank because the joke hasn't even gotten- they're listening, they're making listening face and you just said the funny thing and they're- and you think L: It's rough. R: It's rough. Eventually you realize you need to slow down, and in doing so, the side effect of that of course is you become funnier everywhere because you slowed down enough for people to have time to empathize with you because everything in this world wants you to pick up the pace. Human nature will accelerate. Life accelerates. Everything speeds up. If I told us all right now to start clapping our hands together, just clap in time, we would speed up in order to stay together. We would never think to slow down. There's something in us that just constantly escalates till things break. Children go harder and faster and bigger and better and blah, blah, blah, until it explodes and then they play a new game. Which is wonderful. L: Yep R: But it so drove home the lesson of pacing ourselves. L: Oh yeah. R: Of slowing down and savoring, just enjoy hanging there. Also, "You have more time than you think" became the mantra of everything, because I have time to figure out what I'm gonna do next. I- and if I- and if I don't, that can be funny too. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: I just slow L: If something else happens before I get to my next, that's also funny. R: That's also funny and I have a few seconds to think about that if I keep- if I don't accelerate. So it really drove home this lesson that had- that had been given to me, and that I'd given to so many students who were going too fast, was that it's possible to slow down even more. So I loved- I loved that, and the other thing that I loved about that experience that relates, is the reason for that seven second delay, and that is the people who were there were all over the world. They were everywhere. L: Yeah R: and to think, I could tell a fart joke L: *chuckles softly* R: and in seven seconds someone in Australia could laugh. Just that sentence. L: *more soft chuckles* R: Seven seconds and I have always thought about the fact that that connection, when you slow down enough to call that real time it- it's- it's magical. If you operate- you can't operate that way consistently, obviously, nothing can sustain at that energy level, but to slow down enough to put that sort of field over slow over a whole moment, well that's so much of what we do in comedy, in physical comedy. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Is- is moving slowly. Is- is interpreting that- that extra time and what happens is your audience writes stories in. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and they have more time to think, and more time to empathize and as a result they, by them telling us, are more connected to what we've done. And I- I'm amazed that it proved so much of what I've been told but also it encouraged me to slow down, even more than I already was. Which, now I do nothing at all. I just sit still. You're smiling, L: *quiet laugh* R: So I know it worked. Which is pretty good. L: I was smiling because you- you do plenty of things, but R: but it is- it is true that- that that extra pacing matters. The other thing I'll say and then I'll turn it loose on you is, I'm gonna give away a dirty secret of theater, warning dirty secret of theater. Clowns don't perform for applause. Applause is polite. Applause is appropriate. Applause, if it's not a standing ovation, is usually about seven seconds. Once you know that, you'll never seek applause again because you'll count in your head and I've done it to people and shown them in the lab. I have been next door to performances and held up a finger and said "Now" and heard the applause stop. I've proved it so many times, I don't question it but realising that the gap between my punchline and the laughter is the length of polite applause has been something that has sat with me and I've never spoken on, because well, it's one of those dirty secrets you're never supposed to tell, otherwise people won't come and play with you. They won't- L: *laughs* R: They won't have any reason to take your class and I'm like, "I don't care." Applause is polite. You know what's really great? Gross, snorting, honking, coughing laughter. When someone is having such a good time that the- the pretense of appropriate behavior is out the window and they're like *makes snorting honking laughter sounds*. Babies, they laugh and they spit. L: Yes R: When you get one of those, you know it's real. So that's why that seven seconds means so much to me. L: Yeah? R: Alright, I turn it on you, my friend, this question. L: Yeah, that applause that- ah, before the question. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: I was gonna say, that applause that always feels too short? Five seconds. R: Yeah when when people are applauding because they have to. L: When people are applauding because they absolutely have to? R: Yup L: Five seconds. R: Yeah L: But standard, seven. R: And what's really funny is, if you know this, the first thing you'll do is you go "Well, I love performance, so the next time I see one, I'll applaud a little longer." and then you become that person who looks like you're- every time you've heard someone clap two more times than they should have? It wasn't because they were being a jerk even though they seem like one, it's because they were trying to maintain a thing that cannot be maintained because there's an unspoken social contract about it, that everyone knows roughly how long you applaud and if you go too short? Both: It's rude and if you go too long L: It's also kind of rude. R: Yeah, you seem insincere and only in the context of really rarefied moments, or very carefully orchestrated ones, see the workshop, will you- L: Will it go longer R: Will it go longer, and so for that reason, I always tell clowns and I always myself am seeking a different seven seconds and it's that- it's that length of time for the joke to land and the snot to come out L: *murmurs appreciatively* R: because of the laughter, and on that absolutely impolite moment, what about you? What are your thoughts on the distributed clowning phenomenon? Do I need to read the whole thing to you again? L: That is how it's done. R: It's how it's done. Alright. "I would love to hear your thoughts on what I will jokingly call the distributed clowning or developing connections and comedic timing with video chat and a seven second delay. How is it different than connecting with people in real life and has being online more than we all are used to had any pleasant lessons or surprises?" L: Well I think one of- one of the big things, to me is that it is real life. R: Oh yeah, yeah that- that it isn't over. L: It isn't- it isn't R: It's just a different format. L: What- that- the period of time where we were all so intensely online, which for some people has continued, but R: Roll back from the real world there. L: but for a while there was really everybody, one of the things that really hammered home to me was the fact that while there are differences between online interactions and AFK, away from the keyboard, that people refer to as "real life" there is- while there are differences in how things are done, what relationships are likely to form and what those relationships look like, there is not a "real life" vs "fake life" difference. R: Oh, no. L: The people you are interacting with on the internet, are people and having real deep connections with them happens, and they can happen- it can happen when you entirely know each other over text. R: Oh, I have dear friends I've never met. L: It absolutely doesn't require even the phenomenon we're talking about, which is video chat. Um- not required. Helpful, in some cases but not required and so that was something that really struck me during a lot of that period of time. Um- we also did- we also did some workshopping at the very beginning of the shutdowns R: I was teaching classes L: We were teaching. R: yeah. L: We were continuing to host our workshop class. R: The "Online Clown Symposium" L: Um R: Is what I called it. L: Yeah, which was- which was very interesting because we did a lot of recording outside of the time where we were all sitting together. We would record performances, we would come back and we would- we would watch them all at the same time and then we would critique them and it was really interesting to me to see some of the differences in acting for the camera R: *Affirmative Noise* L: or clown- try- doing clown to a camera. You were mentioning how much energy it takes and R: Oh yeah L: How- how big of a- big of a hurdle it is. Definitely a thing that one can do. Which was a question we had when we started out there, is "Can you do it?" Yes. but I also- but also it's not the same animal. R: No L: It really is not the same animal, because I had- I had one of my clowns in the room for some of Circus In Place R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and it was a very different experience of because R: How was it different? L: feedback times were different and the- the ways of interacting end up being very interesting because there simultaneously will not be a melding of an audience group and do you can't get the one-on-one connection that you would on um- on walk about, doing something where you're just in and amongst people at an event. R: Roaming and in- L: Roaming R: a festival or crowd, that kind of thing? L: Yeah. R: Ah, okay. L: So you don't get the one-on-one that sometimes you get in those situations, unless it's actually just one other person in the room R: but what did you- what did you pick up? L: and so it creates this different rhythm because you're- and it depends- you also are dealing with, what is the etiquette of a video chat space in the first place, because two people can't talk over each other, unless they are in the same room. R: You can't interrupt someone L: because if- R: the mic's clip L: the mic's will clip. One of you will be cut off absolutely. You won't have the opportunity to have both people be heard at all, because most people can can pick up what happened when multiple people were talking at the same time, if they stop and think about it for a minute. Absolutely not an option because of the- the- the digitalness of it. So it did have the slowing down. Absolutely required slowing down, and required a lot more singling people out for, R: In a- in a positive L: responses R: in a positive way. L: in a positive way but singling people out in your responses. Who were you talking to? R: *pondering sound* L: because you're maintaining many conversations. You're maintaining many interactions, and that's not what you're doing when you're having a audience in a classic sense because the audience sorta R: It becomes an organism. L: Becomes an organism of itself. R: Yeah L: and so it was a really interesting um- adventure in maintaining the relationship I have over here, and the relationship I have over here, and the relationship I have over here, even though all of us are- are talking about the same things, that were in the same room? R: You know, it reminds- it reminds me a bit, when like when I've worked on shows where you have either audience in the round or audience partway around. L: It was a lot like that, yeah. Where you have R: Where you tell a joke- you tell jokes stage left and then you do an aside stage right, to maintain your to maintain your line. L: Yeah R: Or you do- and then you can do an upstage or downstage cross. L: And you need to balance that. It's a lot of that balance work. It's the making sure- R: Yeah, where your keeping your whole energy- you're not giving your back to the audience. You're giving L: Yeah R: Energy L: and so you have to make sure that everyone feels- and yeah, it's very much like that because ah- in the round feels like three audiences. R: At least. L: At least, so it's very much like that. So you- you're going "Okay" but because you're getting immediate feedback as well, because you're getting feedback in discussion as well, you are doing things like "Is there anybody I haven't heard from in a while?" R: and so you go L: As like a running tally in the back of your head. R: I think I've done that- I think I've done that onstage though. L: There's some of it, R: but it's different, but it's different. L: But it's different. R: It is different. L: It- it's- it feels like it's a different flavor, so it's a different set of skills I got to hone, is that checking in with everybody, "Is everybody engaged?", "Does everyone still want to be engaged?" R: Hmn L: because sometimes you need to take a step back, and that will be the case ah- that will be the case on roving work, on walk about work R: Where you're just too saturated and you need to pull back a little? L: Where- where people- there will be people in the audience for whom you are too much, in that exact moment. They're- they're overwhelmed, they're done, and they retreat into the audience. R: The organism. L: The organism that is the audience, R: and somebody else bubbles forward a bit. L: Yeah but you're not R: but you don't go into the audience after them. L: You don't go into the audience after them. R: *laughs* L: You don't- you don't go- you don't go trying to force eye contact with the kid that's R: Avoid- L: turned halfway to the side, but because you don't need to. R: but in a video chat, as hosts for lack of a better term, there was a moment where someone's quiet, you made sure they got- they got a moment on mic. L: Yeah, exactly. So R: but that's being a host, I think, of a party. L: Well, that was most of what we did. R: Well yeah, I'm just saying that's interesting balance. L: Yeah, It is an interesting balance and so it was- so I think something that I got to- that was a- at least in review a pleasant surprise is how much I did get to exercise that skill. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: The skill of- of balancing the room. Which I think, yeah, is hosting but it's definitely also something the clown is doing. R: Oh yeah, I've- yeah no- no disagreement. L: and it's not something that I'd had a lot of work with because I would- because frankly I was also- I was the junior clown R: on a show L: on a show or- or running around. So I was following the lead of other people. R: Right, or you're a part of an ensemble and you had L: I was part of an ensemble. So- so it was- was I helping to balance events? Yes. But it wasn't my job R: To L: to be the one to go, "You know where it needs more energy? Over there needs more energy" R: No, in fact- in fact in a lot of our- in a lot of our shows, we had- if we had roving clowns they would be sent, basically someone else was watching and would say L: "Go over there" R: "Go this- go this direction." Either "We need, we've got too much heat here, go put some there." Yeah. I mean I've- I've been told to get, you know, let a stage cool off or let something cool off. L: Yeah, so R: because I'm too much. L: So it's interesting to have been navigating that for my own space. R: I did see one other thing that you experienced and I don't know if it's true or just another aspect of a character that emerged. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: So the- the clown we saw some of in that time was Chadwick. L: Yeah. R: So Chadwick is much more emotionally connected, because you know, Jane- Jane's like this happy child clown. L: Yes R: and Chadwick's like post-pubescent L: Weeping R: Right L: Sad boy, yes R: and what- and what I wonder is how much of that was you having the emotional space to- to get that access and I- L: I don't know. R: I don't either and that was something- that was something I was just sitting here thinking. I had never really thought about it, but because you were in that moment, doing that work but you also have this sort of like safety bubble around you, you had an opportunity to fully feel things. Which could be overwhelming, but also could give you some L: And was um R: Yeah. I know you went through, it was a complicated- it- that whole era is complicated, but I think it's an interesting fact that when stepping back from the moment a little often feels like disassociation, in this case it's also space to actually feel L: Yeah R: In that context, and that's really like really specific thing that I saw for you. L: You may be right. I think- R: I don't know. I don't know. Sit with that. L: I think that was something I'm gonna need to noodle on. R: I apologize for giving you one more darn thing to think about. How about I give you a question so you can dodge it all? L: Alright! R: I'll give you- I'll do that. Alright friends, here it comes. Glasses going on, and this one's- this one's a lightweight one, you'll be fine. "There's a question I want to ask-" I- I just, again I love the way people write because I get to say things that- I just- L: Yeah R: I love it. "There's a question I wanna ask, one I ask a lot of people, but have never quite figured out how to put it into words. The best way I could think of putting it is 'How did you figure out you were you'". L: *a squeek-y noise* R: I said it was a lightweight, you knew- L: Oh R: you knew something heavy was coming L: yeah I knew something was coming R: because the sarcasm was big L: waaah, R: Right? L: Which time? Um- R: I don't know. "How did you figure out you were you?" L: I think that's an ongoing ah- I think that is always an ongoing practice because- because we develop into who we become. So it's, while yes, I am the person that I currently am, in a lot of ways that is- it's somebody suspended between who I used to be and who I'm going to be tomorrow, or next month, or next year and I think that the level of understanding of self that I've hit came from a lot of introspection, ah- and some, and- and at different points in time. It also came from having some safe spaces to feel um- not just the uh- space for that clown to experience things, R: But in your life L: and process them, R: But it your life. L: but also in my life um- so I'll say that helped, because it it's very easy for me to to look at this question and immediately go, you know, think about my trans egg crack moment because that's a significant part of who I am. R: You've also been you the whole time L: but I've also been me the whole time. R: We keep hearing stories going all the way back to you as a child and you were you the whole time. L: Yeah so it's- it's- I think it's an on- I think the- my- my only- my only real answer is it's an ongoing process. Is the- is, for me, I look at who I was yesterday. I look at what my goals are for the future. I look at how I feel today and I try to make some sense of that and I think a ton of that is the storytelling that human beings do because life is a sequence of events. Some of which are directly connected and influence each other, some of which just happen. They just happen. They had nothing to do with what the lead up to it was. It's just where you are now and what human beings do is take these moments that don't probably have anything to do with each other and find a connecting thread between them and go "Okay, maybe I'm just coming up with this, but this wasn't really out of the blue because if I look back it's connected to this, and this, and this other thing", like where we say "It's been- I've been me all along" part of that I do honestly believe to be true, but I also know that part of that is recontextualization. It's that thing that we do where we take seven years to parse our entire lives through another lens of how we've changed, or a thing we've discovered about ourselves, depending on how you feel about whatever thing it is. So, I've been me the whole time but is that a person who is crafty and likes to solve puzzles, or is that me, a boy that likes to be on stage? Is that me, a person who likes to be kind to other people and listen when people have problems? Yes. R: I was go- I was, if you hadn't said it, I was going to. L: It's- it is- it's yes to all of those things, both individually, and layered on top of each other, and there are very few of them- they're simultaneously very few of them that you could just remove and have it still be me, and very few of them that you couldn't remove and it still look like me. There's still at least be a story you could tell saying it was me, and I think that that's the concept of self, I think in a lot of ways, is that storytelling. Which is why it's so complicated, because it is both a story we tell to explain to ourselves who we are and it's a whole bunch of things we discovered and have no control over. So it's only true if it's true. So it simultaneously is something we're making up and something we couldn't lie about. Least not to ourselves, at least not deeply, because you can you can do some fibs and you can definitely present things that aren't who you are. R: If I made you up I'm far more imaginative than I give you credit for- L: but R: give me credit for L: but it's- you're not going to come up with something out of whole cloth when you're fig- when you're figuring out who you are. That's not going to be a- that's not choosing from a catalog. That's not going "I shall be one of these!" Although that's where we start, is by going "Well maybe, maybe I'm like this person. Maybe I'm like this thing that I've heard." R: Maybe I'll strive to become L: because R: the person for whom the action is natural. woah. L: because what- particularly when we're children, we don't have a more complicated sense of selves, of who people are. R: No L: When we're children, Mom is Mom and Dad is Dad and Teacher is Teacher and we just saw Teacher at the grocery store and I'm very confused. R: *laughs* L: So, you know, it's- it's- it makes sense that this question is impossible to put into words, because answering it is- R: It's fun. Fun to watch you sweat though. L: is a mess. R: fun to watch you sweat. L: But I think- I think that's- that's what I got. R: You did good. I think you did good. Well played. L: So, so in return, I shall read the card. R: Oh no. *laughs* L: "There's a question I want to ask, one I want to ask a lot of people, but have never quite figured out how to put into words. The best thing I can think of putting it is-" sorry, "The best I can think of putting it is, 'How did you figure out you were you?'" R: Full honesty, beyond the hand wavy "Well, I haven't figured me out yet because I'm constantly evolving" or the ego defending "I'm not that great", full honesty I can boil it down to a simple idea. I became closer to the person I don't detest every time I admitted I was a coward and was brave despite it. Full stop. I have been afraid my whole life of so many things and any time I could say "Yeah and I'm here" anytime I could say "I'm the worst in the room, but I'm in the damned room", that's when I became me and that's when I noticed it. In those moments, that's it. Everything else I could tell you is either an anecdote that happened because life, as you said, is absurdism and stuff just happens and we try to create narrative or because I was lying trying to be something I wasn't but every time I relax and take a deep breath and show up, the person on the other side of that I can live with, and I think that's me becoming me. I hope. I don't get to do it all the time. I hope everyone gets to feel that because ah- it's pretty good. L: Alright R: 'scuse me while I drop a concise grenade. L: Well done. R: of knowledge and wisdom. Boom. L: I have another question. R: Oh, I know but I had to deal with the fact that I had said "grenade" L: I know R: and that felt weird L: and we had to- we had to clear the air R: of debris, yeah. L: Of debris. R: Of- of emotional debris, like much of this entire time together. *laughs* L: And so, so I feel like there's really only one thing that can be said. Butts. R: You're bucking for another slogan but unfortunately we've already- we've already picked one. L: I know, but you pointed out at the beginning the answer is just say "butts" R: When in doubt, Both: Butts. L: So R: *Attentive Noise* L: Now that we've cleared the air R: The derriere L: *laughs* R: because of all the butts. L: Are you ready for another question? R: I aim. L: Alright. "What do you think is different, the same, or related with respect to how clowns vs magicians handle the attention of the audience?- R: Auww L: do they work the same? Do they- do they direct toward the same thing? In what ways are they the same or different and what does that reveal?" R: First of all, I have a notorious ongoing- the- the way people joke about how clowns and mimes get into it L: *laughs* R: and are like rival gangs? I feel like my whole life has been leading up to the fact that clowns and, for me, it's clowns and magicians. I don't know why, we never- we always get into it, and I think one of the reasons, for me, is because this journey as strange as it is to say, "I do a lot of made up stuff in order to seek the truth" is true for me. It's absurd L: *Affirmative Noise* Yeah. R: to say it but it's true for me. I am constantly putting- one of my teachers used to describe it as "We put a magnifying glass over life and that little bubble where time slows down and we can see everything clearly? L: Yes R: that's clown" L: Ahh R: That's theater. That's clown. That's what they would say. So I've been backstage with a bunch of magicians and it leads to a lot of shop talk. I've been friends with a bunch of magicians. I've worked with a bunch of magicians and what I can tell you is that all of them know they're lying. See the thing is, they have zero imposter syndrome. L: Well, you can't have imposter syndrome if you know R: you're full of crap. L: that you're lying, yeah. R: Exactly. You got it. They walk in the room prepared fully, to the best of their ability, to remove the traces of guilt that are in our reflexes, the shame that's in their reflexes, in order to lie boldfaced and bold hearted to an audience. With noble purpose of telling story, but what they just- what I just described you sounds a little like psychosis to me, sociopathy to me. L: Oh that's a bit- R: It's a bit overstated, but if you follow me here, the idea of the magician's ability to hide all sense of the wrongdoing of them lying to you L: Like, when you put it that way I see the connection, R: That's the L: I still feel like it's a bit much. R: It is a bit much, but eh- this theatre. We're playing in extremes. L: Okay. R: I know what I'm saying. I'm aware, I'm not- I'm not stomping my foot on this. L: Okay, okay. R: It's not a hill with a cup of coffee, it's just a thought. It's a thought process I've had a number of times where they'll do everything in their power to show you the truth of their left hand while doing something illicit with their right, whereas the clown will say "Look at my left hand. I'm using it to point at my right, L: *laughs* R: isn't that interesting?" and in doing so- I do believe this, at the best, and I'm not suggesting i among either "best" camp, at their best they're both serving the same purpose, to tell a story to the audience. To give the audience a feeling. To give the audience an experience, but how they go about it is antithetical. There are a few brilliant people on both sides, who have managed to cross those boundaries, of course, but generally speaking, if you're talking about, you know, magicians in the- in the theatrical sense the magicians who are- who are practicing that craft of deception and clowns who are practicing this craft of focus control and truth they're- they're- they're different worlds and I've literally just been in rooms where I have worked with magicians who I deeply respected. We made each other uncomfortable because our philosophical approaches to what we were doing were so radically different L: *Affirmative Noise* R: and the one I always remember is, I- I knew- I was working with someone who is brilliant. Brilliant, and they had such a good run. They- and they were doing stuff, they brought an audience member up and they did a thing and it was so perfect and I told them, I said "It was amazing how you handle that" and they said "I know, it would be impossible if the plant in the audience wasn't as good as they were" and I thought to myself "I would never lie to my audience that way" and I said as much L: *Affirmative Noise* R: And he said "I saw your show, it was brilliant and you had such a good rapport with the audience. Who was the plant?" and I said "I don't know. That's not a plant. That was a member of the audience." and we were both horrified. L: *laughs* R: We were both completely mortified of our choices. That performer was mortiford- mortified- "mortiford", mortified at the idea that I would come to the stage and find a total stranger, make an emotional connection, to fall virtually in love with them, ask them to come up on stage and have a moment with them to share with the audience and then get them back to their seats safely, that vulnerability, and nakedness, and honest warts and all and I was horrified that they were hiring actors to make them look good. L: Yup. R: In both cases, the approach was the audience, the goal was the audience, the amazing moment where the audience says "Wow, that was beautiful" or "amazing" or "wonderful and left us feeling- I was in the audience for the magi- for the magician part, like I said, before I got the backstage story I was a part of that and I was like "Oh, I'm entranced. It was so good." but antithetical to truth and it just- in the face of it, so I- I think the approaches are so radically different. I think, and again I know there's- we're talking in like classical- almost categorical ways about things that get- you know, there are- L: They get blurry R: They get blurry. L: Yeah R: I have done sleight of hand. I've done pickpocketing. I've done- well, okay, I've done reverse pickpocketing more than anything. There's nothing funnier than putting- well somebody having a great experience with you and getting home and realising that you've given them, like a button with your website on it and they didn't know it at the time. You know, that's a funny moment for them and I've gotten positive feedback on that but the point is, when you become aware of the vulnerability people are gifting you you become really respectful of it and when you realize if you took the other approach you could use that- and I think this is what it is L: *Affirmative Noise* R: because I know that, I know how much power that is. I know how much manipulative strength that is. I know how dirty it could be and obviously in the case of the magician I'm talking about they were- they were good. L: They're- they're- R: They're using it'll ethically L: Under the label R: Yeah. L: "magician" R: Yeah, they're using it ethically. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: Whereas I think because I'm coming at it from such a truthful place, or that my goal is, because obviously we are all full of crap. Everything is make believe. It is all lies, but the- the- the goals are noble and because of that I think because I know deep down I could turn these skills on their head and really manipulate a situation, I have a viscerally negative response to the idea of doing so, and that may be entirely my trip. That may be all me, but that's where the difference is. Is that ultimately, I talk a lot about moving people's focus around, when I talk about it in the work and I'm sure I've talked about it before and I said it earlier, I'm gonna make you look at my hand and they're gonna make you look away from their hand to accomplish the goal of storytelling L: *Affirmative Noise* R: but the knowledge of the mechanics of- of how and why? The hows are the same, and the whys are so different. They're night and day, and I think they scare me a little. I think they scare me a little because, that, right now especially, what we need is truth and sincerity and honesty and vulnerability and what we're getting is nothing but lies. I'm not going to dig into that. L: *Affirmative Noise* R: for sure. L: Yeah R: but I think that for me is why it's so very different. Despite having great respect for the craft, for the skills L: *Affirmative Noise* R: on both sides. L: Yeah R: So that's- that's for me. I dragged it through the mud a little. L: You did, R: I did. L: You did. R: I did. L: You made that one intense. R: I did. L: and now I have to answer it. R: Well, you know, you- you'd- you- yeah, that's true. L: *laughs* R: "What do you think is the same- what is different, the same, related, with respect to how clowns vs. magicians handle the attention of the audience? Do they work the same? Do they direct-" my- my glasses are failing me today "they direct towards the same thing? In what ways are they different and what does that reveal?" L: I mean *big exhale* you have more experience with magicians than I do. R: You didn't go in the dark alley I went in, that's fine. L: Um but, I have to say that I agree with much of what you said there. It's definitely- there's no question in my mind that the idea of "Let me take the tools of how we take your attention and focus it" and one hundred percent what a magician is doing is focusing it on something that is a falsehood whereas we are trying to- we're pointing it to the hand that's doing the thing. Um- mostly so we can go "Isn't that cool" R: *small laugh* L: but I think the thing that stuck out to me while you were talking, is that the red nose, we joke that it's warning label. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: It tells people what they're getting into, R: *Affirmative Noise* L: and I think the various garbs that are what a magician wears, whether that's the top hat or it's R: Cool streetwear. L: Cool streetwear, that has that particular- R: Dragon costume. L: There's- there's been a lot- R: It's a deep cut, but it's a- a good one. L: There's a lot of options, but when you introduce yourself as a magician, when the show that you're pitching is a magic show I think that you are offering a different- you are making a- you're offering a different game, to the audience. R: Yeah L: Then the offer that the clown is making, because the offer the clown is making is "Come play with me" and the offer that the magician is making is "I have the best puzzle ever" R: Ohh, I see it. L: Is "I can present you with a puzzle, and you will leave here thinking about it. You might know- you might figure out some of the early puzzles but you will leave here thinking about the big ones because you will not understand them. You won't know how I did it" Is the game, to me, of when I go to see a magic show, that's the game I'm looking to play. I am showing up, and maybe this is- maybe this is me, the person who loves to be backstage and find out how all the magician tricks work, because I know that there's a separate version that's the- there's a separate version of what people show up to magic shows to- to see and I'll come back to that one in a second. The one that I feel is true to what magicians who have- "magician" R: Who are doing a straight ahead magic show. L: Who are doing a magic show. R: Which is different than a theatrical experience. L: Which is different than a theatrical experience. Who say "I have tricks, I have illusions" Illusionists are in this category. R: Yeah there's- L: Those- those who are upfront going "My intent is to deceive you" my- and that is because the game is a puzzle. R: *Affirmative Noise* L: I invite you to try to figure it out. I will never tell you if you're right, but I invite you to figure it out. That I feel is what is being offered there, and is what I feel like I go do when I go watch those, and I love it. I love to be looking for the- the tricks that I know, I love to be looking for what spins on tricks that I'm aware of someone seems to have done. I am a huge fan- Well, I've never like gone and watch all of it, but I'm a big fan of "Fool Us" because I love the fact that there was- there was the respect of "We don't say how things got done but will indicate how things were done" that it's- it's literally people at the tops of that game R: *Affirmative Noise* L: Playing the game that is "Can I present a puzzle you can't solve" R: The- two of the leading experts- the living experts L: experts R: yeah. L: Is- is- is and then people get to go challenge "Can I present something that you can't solve?" because it's a- it's a sequence of puzzles. That, I think is a fantastic set of games to play with people. What I agree with you that is the thing that inspires a really negative visceral reaction if I think about it too much, and that I know happens, is that sometimes people go to these things to try to believe that the supernatural is possible. R: You're- you're playing with people's hope. L: You're playing with people's hope, at that point. The minute that somebody approaches you and they go "I believe you" the minute that the audience is telling a magician "I believe that you did that by magic" R: Ooof. L: "I believe that you did that through supernatural means" that is where it is in fact a lie, because when it's labeled "Magic, these are illusions" it's not a lie anymore it's a puzzle. When it's "I have the capability to do things no human can do" that is lying and that is using tools that I use for truth to tell lies. And if that doesn't come around with a story, if that doesn't happ- have a story telling element that goes somewhere good? R: That's a bad time. Yeah, L: That's a bad time R: Okay. L: and so I absolutely hear the feelings that you have about it, because yeah, that's a bad time and I- I have- and I know that you have a lot of respect for magicians as well. R: As technicians absolutely. L: and I have a lot of, a lot of respect for- for technicians of that but I know that, for me, when I've gone to see shows of any magician, I showed up to be confused. R: Maybe it's because I show up confused is why I feel differently about it. L: *laughs* Is that I want to leave going "How the heck- R: Most of the time L: did that happen?" R: I show up, I don't know what's going on. So I think that's- I think you've- you've hit it. That's the difference between you and me. I like the idea that when ah- when people come to see a clown, they sit down they go "I hope I laugh. This should be fun, interesting." L: Yeah R: "This- this could be silly." L: It's a different set of- R: We don't know what it is, L: different set of hopes. R: and you sit down in the audiences to see- to see a magician. "I would be confused. I wanna be bamboozled. I want to be lied to." You know, they don't say that one. Maybe they do. L: Yeah R: They want to be- they want to be fooled. L: They want to be fooled. R: I think it's interesting, they want to be- they want to be fooled, and then we want to Both: be the fools, yeah. R: and it's an interest- it's an interesting, like I said, philosophically the ride right next to each other, and every now and then someone very, very clever reaches across and makes the connection between, whether it's the comedy and the magic or uses the magic to tell a beautiful story and there are some really fantastic examples of this L: Oh yeah. R: Which are- which are exceptions to the rule on both sides. We've used, we've used illusions quote unquote in shows but we've used them in way- in really small ways that help tell our story and it was pretty clear that we weren't trying to be magicians. We used an illusion I- I real- I don't have a good example to hand but I know we've done it. L: Yeah, I feel like- I feel like more often- R: I've done more with puppetry than with- L: Yeah, more often than not, we do things where like, I think one of the best- one of the best magic tricks I've seen you do on stage is legitimately one of the ways that people make objects disappear, depending on the situation R: To throw it offstage as hard as you can? L: and it's throw it off stage as hard as you can, and there's- in- in, we did- we do a show that is ah- "The Elephants Gerald" which- R: It's an act. L: is an act, yeah, it's not a full show, it's an act, but we do an act with- with "The Elephants Gerald" which we juggle a bunch of stuffed elephants and R: As one does. L: and as that concludes, this is one of those ones where we make sure that we tidy up after ourselves so that we can walk off, um- contrary to much of what people believe about clowns in spaces, R: Oh I- L: we tidy up and then they walk off, and part of that includes a dramatic buildup to disappearing the last elephant and then you toss it directly behind you R: Over my head L: Just over your head, directly behind you R: and you catch it. L: There's no R: There's no illusion L: There's no disguising it. There is no illusion in play. There's none of the bafflement elements even attempted, but there is all of the- R: the buildup. L: The buildup, and- and of the "tada" there's both. There's the buildup and the celebration of achieving the R: Well the elephant is gone! L: disappearance because the elephant is gone now. R: because you caught it and stuffed it in a tent. L: And I catch it behind you and so it does "disappear" but in full view of the audience and I love it so much because R: All the bravado and none of the talent. L: It's your clown doing a "magic trick" R: and there it is, I put- you use the same bravado, the same technique and yeah, that is a way to disappear a- somebody up close could be fooled with their fixed point being- being manipulated, but by doing it openly in front of an audience, you are- you are playing with it. L: Yeah it's- it's purely a game and it's- it's one of my it my favorite- *laughs* it's one of my favorite things. R: I didn't know that was one of your favorites. I'm so glad. L: Oh, the level of your confidence when you disappear an object. R: Well, I've had my- I've opportunities. Thank you, my- my favorite- my favorite version of that was I was doing a show- I was invited to perform in a theater full of magicians. L: *laughs* R: Really well-known magicians, and at one point I took off my hat on stage and I was like "I'm gonna do a magic trick" and I kept stepping back to get the best possible view and at the last second I grabbed it and threw both arms out, outstretched and I threw it into the wings so badly and far that we had to go- we had to wait 'till the show was over and I had to like, dig it out. L: *laughs* R: and because everyone in the audience was either a magician, or magician adjacent, or came to see a magician, it was the funniest possible moment because once again the clown had come at it from the other direction, but again it's a- that's a technique, technically. L: yeah it is R: and I think, I think that's- that's an example of where I'm sure they are magicians right now, doing podcasts right now, who are saying hateful things about clowns and that's one of the things they said "and they didn't respect our work and they threw their hat like it was some sort of magic trick" and to them I say butts. L: *laughs* R: I mean it, and I mean it, because that's- that's the thing. You know the- the other part of it is status. You know, theatrical status, L: Oh theatrical status, totally different games. R: Yeah. Magicians come in the room like they're- like they're the hero of the story and clowns come to the room like they're just lucky to be there and I think there's a little humility to that that I approve of L: Yeah. R: So yeah, it's all this stuff. Okay, enough- enough punching at magicians. *gentle static noise* R: Okay, so we goofed and we accidentally had a recording run out L: but R: We apparently answered all the questions. L: Yeah that was the- the next thing we said was that that was all questions. R: We said that was all the questions and that we love you very much and that we were so happy to spend time with us and to remind you to please reach out and take care of someone. Get someone to take care of you, and if there's no one else to do it, we'll do it because we will come and we will take care of you and we're your friends, right here on L: Two Clowns in a Closet R: and that is what we've lost, and I think we got it. L: I think- R: Well L: I feel like the button was slightly better last time. R: We can- we were- we were honest. We're schmaltzy, but we're honest. L: Yes R: Is that good? L: but this was good. R: This is good. L: I think it's good. R: You think it's good. L: Yeah R: Okay because I'm worried because I want to get this right because now it feels like- we've never had an edit like this before. L: No, this is brand new. R: We- we- we went on too long. We rambled too long because it was too much and that is okay, and what I'm gonna say is ah- we should go and come back next time and talk more, but less. L: Yes R: So we don't run out and we don't have to do this again but I think we will be able to piece this together and if you hear this at the end, thank you for tolerating the little weird audio clip. There isn't some like secret thing we cut out we- we goofed up L: Yes R: Okay, I think that covers it. L: Yeah. R: Okay. L: You gonna go open the door? R: Do you want to go get the door, or should we do the Ro-Sham-Bo for it? L: Okay, we'll Ro-Sham-Bo. R: Okay. *four slaps* L: I won. R: Well I guess that means I gotta go get the door. L: That's- that's how it goes. R: So much walking. Alright everyone, we'll see you next time! Well, we'll hear you next- you'll hear us next time. L: We'll be here. R: Okay L: That's the point. R: That's- that's absolutely the point. *Door Opens*